Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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'The vulnerable/isolated/jaded'. According to context, at all those instances, it only makes sense if the meaning is taken as 'The fatherless children', or 'The orphans'. However, in 's first half, it doesn't use 'Yatama' as a noun, but a descriptive word, like, it describes what follows it, and what follows it is 'An Nisa', this, has been used as a definite noun, as it has 'Al' in the beginning. Like in a phrase has been used 'Azab Al Khizy', where 'Al Khizy' means 'The disgrace' or the concept of disgrace, while 'Azab' means 'Punishment', which means 'Punishment of the disgrace', in other words, 'The disgrace' in the form of torture. Similarly. here it means 'Isolated/Vulnerable of the women', or in other words, women who are vulnerable/jaded, or at least that's what I think Abdul Mannan Omar is trying to say. If it was 'Al Yatama An Nisa', then I'm sure neither he, nor I would have thought about interpreting it this way, since then Yatama would itself be a noun, rendering this interpretation illogical. I've also taken a look at what Mazhar has done at Haqeeqat.org.pk, and even he has translated it as 'Orphan lonely women', which seems like he is also agreeing that 'Orphan lonely' is an adjective that describes a type of women (Though I'd like it if he'd pay us a visit and clear up what he thinks).
I am sorry I had not studied this thread earlier.
It is a Possessive Phrase. First Noun of Possessive Phrase never takes definite article nor is ever in abslute state, i.e. tanween at the end. The reason being that it derives its definiteness from the second Possessive Noun. So the First Noun is Definite, denoting "The Orphan". Since the second Noun is definite it means "the women". A woman is orphan so long she is lonely-unmarried-the moment she is married after having attained marriagable maturity, she is no more an orphan. Her identity changes. She becomes a "mohisna"; protected lady by bond of Nikah.
A Yateem is one whose father has died while he/she has not attained strengthen maturity-marriagable age. Vulnerability might be its effect, but not its meanings. -
I am sorry I had not studied this thread earlier.
It is a Possessive Phrase. First Noun of Possessive Phrase never takes definite article nor is ever in abslute state, i.e. tanween at the end. The reason being that it derives its definiteness from the second Possessive Noun. So the First Noun is Definite, denoting "The Orphan". Since the second Noun is definite it means "the women". A woman is orphan so long she is lonely-unmarried-the moment she is married after having attained marriagable maturity, she is no more an orphan. Her identity changes. She becomes a "mohisna"; protected lady by bond of Nikah.
A Yateem is one whose father has died while he/she has not attained strengthen maturity-marriagable age. Vulnerability might be its effect, but not its meanings.Thanks Mazhar for taking part in this thread, though this issue was resolved, no need to apologize btw. I'm sorry but can you explain what you mean by 'The First Noun is Definite'? Cause I don't see any Al with Yatama, while you say its translated as 'The Orphans' ??? And can you slightly simplify your answer, I mean, is it 'Orphans belonging to women' or 'Orphan women' as in a woman who is lonely/unmarried?
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Possessive Phrase-"the Construct"
Annexed, attached, or possessed And second Noun is termed as "Annexer", or "Possessor"
We are familiar with the Possessives in English like "my, their, etc" and possessive clitic "-'s". in Arabic represents primarily the association of one Noun with another Noun.
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
** The noun that is the possessor comes second/after, and is called ;
*** The first and the second noun worry about their own gender and plurality.
**** If the second noun is definite, the first noun derives its definiteness from the second noun.
***** Since the first noun derives its definiteness from the second definite noun, therefore, in possessive phrase the first noun will never have definite article and nor "nunation/ .
****** The that is the suffix for duality and masculine sound plurality will also drop.******* The first noun, whatever its grammatical state may be, which is determined by external factors, it will always render the second noun in the genitive case.
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
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Possessive Phrase-"the Construct"
Annexed, attached, or possessed And second Noun is termed as "Annexer", or "Possessor"
We are familiar with the Possessives in English like "my, their, etc" and possessive clitic "-'s". in Arabic represents primarily the association of one Noun with another Noun.
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
** The noun that is the possessor comes second/after, and is called ;
*** The first and the second noun worry about their own gender and plurality.
**** If the second noun is definite, the first noun derives its definiteness from the second noun.
***** Since the first noun derives its definiteness from the second definite noun, therefore, in possessive phrase the first noun will never have definite article and nor "nunation/ .
****** The that is the suffix for duality and masculine sound plurality will also drop.******* The first noun, whatever its grammatical state may be, which is determined by external factors, it will always render the second noun in the genitive case.
ah...........I see...thanks a lot
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
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Peace Fallen Angel and Mazhar,
Can you please break this down into simpler terms for me? I don't understand the Arabic that you have typed.
What I have understood is this the first noun is possessed by the second noun? As in the orphans belong to the women?
Have I understood this correctly?
What is the final consensus that the two of you hold in regard to this?
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Peace Fallen Angel and Mazhar,
Can you please break this down into simpler terms for me? I don't understand the Arabic that you have typed.
What I have understood is this the first noun is possessed by the second noun? As in the orphans belong to the women?
Have I understood this correctly?
What is the final consensus that the two of you hold in regard to this?
You have understood correctly, basically Mazhar has quite efficiently answered my objections to the interpretation, I said that Yatama didn't come in a definite form, and he cleared it up, that it can't come in the definite noun form due to being possessed. The final consensus between us is I guess that the well known interpretation, that it means, 'Orphans belonging to women' is correct.
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Noon
Peace Maha,
?And for you? ? address is to every individual not ?and for you all collectively.?
Otherwise the entire male community would get 1/2 if no child and 1/4 if son.is plural. is to an individual.
It doesnt even adress any specifik gender. is plural and can be used to both males and females.
Yes the entire community would get 1/2 from their pairs.
Whereas for wives it is collectively if more than one and we know verses point to multiple wives
No we dont know that these verses point to multiple wives, its something you assume .
Again, what you promote is unlimited women and men all married to each other.
Hence renders verses pointless on marriage, divorce, waiting, inheritance, etcYou also promote group marriages, so its the same thing.
Peace
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You have understood correctly, basically Mazhar has quite efficiently answered my objections to the interpretation, I said that Yatama didn't come in a definite form, and he cleared it up, that it can't come in the definite noun form due to being possessed. The final consensus between us is I guess that the well known interpretation, that it means, 'Orphans belonging to women' is correct.
Sorry, it is not like that. The red shows as if they are two entities. Possessive Phrase does not necessarily mean literal "possession" but as I indicated "relationship-association" also. It denotes "the women whose father has died". After it is the adjectival clause about these women by a plural relative pronoun.
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Sorry, it is not like that. The red shows as if they are two entities. Possessive Phrase does not necessarily mean literal "possession" but as I indicated "relationship-association" also. It denotes "the women whose father has died". After it is the adjectival clause about these women by a plural relative pronoun.
lol, I knew something like this was coming, that's why I added 'I guess' in my reply. Anyway, now its clear, though in your site, you cite 411 as a link to this part, as this verse in the beginning does mention that its contents have been recited prior to its revelation, however, all 411 discusses are the inheritance laws, what does that have anything to do with this part?
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lol, I knew something like this was coming, that's why I added 'I guess' in my reply. Anyway, now its clear, though in your site, you cite 411 as a link to this part, as this verse in the beginning does mention that its contents have been recited prior to its revelation, however, all 411 discusses are the inheritance laws, what does that have anything to do with this part?
Perhaps you are referring to this mention "". It is against the last sentence of Ayah 424, not for all.
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I'm referring to this part
about orphan lonely women whom you do not give what is written for them and you desire that you may take them into Nikah ;
In the brackets you cite 411, can you explain that part?
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I'm referring to this part
about orphan lonely women whom you do not give what is written for them and you desire that you may take them into Nikah ;
In the brackets you cite 411, can you explain that part?
Yatim women is not being given what is allocated for her in 411; and above it one wants to marry her. What for? Objective of retaining her property conveniently achieved. If she gets married to someone else, retaining property might become a difficult proposition.
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Peace
This is where I disagree. In regard to 4.3, I see it as the literal as in the orphans being the possessions of the women. Women can be considered orphaned as well, of course. However, due to the fact that this is pertaining to the "yatama" which is gender masculine, I can only deduce that it is referring to orphaned children belonging to the women. The yatama can be made up both male and female children.
Also, this interpretation does not make sense to me because later, there is discussion in regard to the orphans' level of maturity as well. Obviously, only mature women can marry, so "yatama" cannot fluctuate in meaning throughout the chapter so much.
It's a matter of whether one wants to take the literal meaning (which is what I think makes the most sense in this regard), or take on a adjectival meaning instead.
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Peace Released,
um.............we weren't discussing 43, we're talking about 4127's Yatamannisa )
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Yatim women is not being given what is allocated for her in 411; and above it one wants to marry her. What for? Objective of retaining her property conveniently achieved. If she gets married to someone else, retaining property might become a difficult proposition.
That's my question, How do you determine that it is what is decreed in 411 that is not being given to her? How did you come to the conclusion that it refers to 411?
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Peace
Oh whoops!!! ;D
We're not talking about 4.3 at all, correct?
Okay, so we're referring to this verse
4127 Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisa-iquli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutlaAAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisa-iallatee la tu/toonahunna ma kutiba lahunnawatarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeenamina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqistiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin fa-inna Allaha kanabihi AAaleeman
when we talk about the orphaned women, correct? Is this the verse Mazhar is talking about in regard to the "orphaned women" as opposed to "orphans belonging to the women"?
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That's my question, How do you determine that it is what is decreed in 411 that is not being given to her? How did you come to the conclusion that it refers to 411?
Red is the adjectival description of those father-orphaned women. What is not given to them which is allocated for them? Is it except the inheritance which is prescribed for them in 411?
I hope it will satisfy the querry of Released also. is plural feminine relative pronoun which is adjectival description of those "father-orphaned women". I am coining this "father orphaned" because perhaps orphan denotes a child whose parents are both dead.
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Peace Mazhar,
Can you please include the transliteration as well? I cannot read Arabic very well at all..am learning at the age of 26 without any formal instruction. I am really confused now Firstly, I am confused as to whether we are even talking about 4.3 specifically, or are we talking about 4.127..or something else. Can you explain how what you've deduced relates to the question we have in relation to 4.3? I am really having difficulty following
Also, if you can please break it down into small steps..this will help me. Oh, and please highlight the parts of the transliteration that are important for understanding, as this will also help. Thank you
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Salamun Alaykum,
This message is for all those who can't keep up with me and Mazhar, and for the furture generations, a summary of what has happened in the past two or three pages of this thread between me and Mazhar.
Also, before I begin, here is 's general translation and transliteration, the reason for coloring is quite apparent
Translation And they ask your decision concerning women, say, Allah gives His decision, and consider what has been recited unto you in the book concerning Yatama AlNisa to whom (Feminine 'whom' you do not give what is decreed for them and desire that you marry them
Transliteration Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunnaIn this post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604568.msg313435#msg313435 Mazhar had addressed one of those early posts by me in which I discussed my take on 4127's Yatama AlNisa, regarding what it can mean, 'Orphaned women', 'Orphans of women', or 'Isolated/Jaded/Vulnerable women'. He really convincingly, or at least to me, cleared it up how it means 'Orphaned women', I would've probably never had been convinced at this point, but due to his grammatical knowledge, I was able to be convinced. Moreover, I too study the Quranic grammar, and have basic knowledge regarding it, hence was able to accept what he said. I had previously, in this post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604568.msg311873#msg311873 said that we'll stop discussing 4127, 'until we find a better translation with strong evidence to support it' - my own words And this time did come, as Mazhar brought great strong evidence to support his translation. The next thing that I asked was regarding Allah's usage of the terms, (Just a general translation) 'Consider what has been/is being recited unto you in the book concerning ... ' in before mentioning the Yatama AlNisa and other contents of this verse. What I see is, that since Allah says that what is being mentioned has been already discussed, the Yatama AlNisa must have one way or another, directly or indirectly, been discussed in the Quran prior to this revelation. Mazhar at his site, Haqeeqat.org.pk, had cited as a reference after 'you do not give what is decreed for them'. Discusses the inheritance laws, I was confused, as to how did Mazhar deduce that it is that is linked to 'What is decreed for them', to which he replied that what else could it be? And that's when I realized what a stupid question that was And now I'm typing this.
That was the summary, I'm sorry that I didn't clarify that we aren't discussing anymore.
I have been going through these verses, over and over again, re-reading what Mazhar said, seeing what my favorite translator, Muhammad Asad has to say, and have been able to the make a connection between all these verses. In the next post I will discuss it, till then, try not to post anything