New but not new to the views.
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Salaam RidaKhan,
I do study the Arabic Quran to some extent, not as much as I could I guess, but I know some basics.
Did I say that I was a "Quranist"?
No, I did not, I avoid the term. I said I was a Believer, but if I have to refer to myself with a religious origin, I suppose it would be Muslim, since it seems to be the only accepted term. It is not wrong either, just that that term is so misused.
I understand that is why the definition "Submitter" emerged, so suppose I may have to land on Muslim. However, I belong to no sect, simply Muslim.
The reason is the false perception that the Muslims today are the only Muslims, anyone can be a Muslim, even if not been studying Quran.
God bless you
Hey there! I AM SO SORRY You were NOT meant to read that post lol. My internet died around 4pm yesterday and I have been trying to get it work. I just spoke to the internet people and thank god it is working. You are right, you never said you were a Quranist and from reading your post you had already told me that you were learning Arabic, which I sincerely appreciate. So here's my actual response that I wanted to post lol.
You are right in the regard that Arabic is not my primary language, but you seem to have misunderstood my point in the post you read, since you said I tried to claim that Mu?min is the same as Muslim or translate into this, which I never did. I tried to define the word Muslim according to my knowledge, which is something like Peacemaker and the words Islam, Muslim and Salaam come from the root S L M. It does not take an expert to draw these conclusions I did, and I did not make this discovery on my own, credit is to people on this forum. I think the word Peacemaker/Submitter is still not the right choice to properly define Muslim, but something like Truth-seeker or similar.
Rida That's fine. I get you here.
//One does not have to be a Muslim to grasp the Message which all messengers came with and they all brought the same Message with some adjustments to the contents.//
Rida Yes. You do not have to be a Muslim to obtain the message of God. But you do need to recognise that in Islam Quran summarises the message of God and clears it out for other people. Thus you do need to study Quran as perhaps a matter of interest. I would discourage you to stick to translations of other people.
// Following the basic principles of the religion of God is simple, it means believing in God alone and the Hereafter, and to be a righteous believer. The Quran is a good book to guide people to be righteous, but this does not mean a man or a woman cannot be living in the Light of God without it.//
I don't understand you at all here. People maybe guided to an extent, by their society/ education-and perhaps athiests are guided too. But they may not be fully guided. It seems like you have this illusion that there is one "religion of God" which is universal. I strongly oppose this idea because well, this means that you dont think that Islam is that religion, or maybe you do, yet you think other religions say the same thing as Islam one way or the other therefore humans are getting the same Quranic message. If you mash all religions into one, all Gods into one, all books (regardless of their fabrication) into one- you are left with nothing but contradictions. And yet, you feel that everyone is "Rightly guided"? For example, what do you mean by the "righteous believer"?- which scripture determines who is a believer and who isnt? Buddhists may practice idolatry which contradicts the foundation of Islam- but a practicing Buddhist is a "believer" . It cannot be all same Man of Faith, each religion has its sets of rules/ foundations. There maybe generic guidelines like no to injustice/theft/murder etc- however, there are clear distinctions in guidelines of one religion to another. I am sorry to say, but this is a very popular western-converted Muslim perspective, which well... is certainly not Islamic in my understanding. Even though, I respect you for your beliefs.
//You are right in many ways, and I knew most of what you wrote already, but it was well written to the depth of it, I could learn at least a thing or two from it. The only problem is that this boastful contentment with the Quran has rendered you slightly arrogant to the extent of denying all the existing religions (sects) in the world. You do not have to be speaking and writing Arabic to grasp God?s Message//
Yep. I was right to conclude earlier. It is not something new for a converted Muslim of the West to minimize the emphasize to learn Arabic. Which of course is a must to understand Quran and its messages. Like I said earlier, translations can be wrong. You must learn the language. But we- (tempted to use the word "We" here), as Muslims do expect that if you want to join Islam you must have an understanding of either Arabic- or a languages similar to it like Persian, Urdu or Turkish. It is very sad that the new converts do not comprehend this despite many Muslim scholars emphasizing the importance of Arabic. Very, very sad.
//before I stumbled onto the Quran and I cannot say I was on a highway to Hell before I did so, I saw through Satan?s tricks with the trinity and invented stories about Jesus and I was a monotheist believer even then. I had never even taken my eyes upon the Quran before that and read the warnings about Jesus and the belief in the trinity.//
Quran makes it clear that if someone simply did not know the messages of the Quran then their lack of knowledge by chance will not shove them into hell. However, if someone does have the knowledge of the Quran and is aware of its messages and then deliberately choose not to adhere to the Quranic laws. This is when it starts getting tricky. You weren't going to be shoved into hell before you stumbled across Quran. And I dont think I ever said that anyone who believes in something else other than Quran will go to hell. For all I know is that I am not God, and I am no one to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
//Please do not get me wrong, the Quran is a most excellent book, perfectly detailed and it is not seemingly biased, its Message can be understood even with a quite poorly translated Quran//
You don't sound very convinced lol. Why "join Islam" after reading a "poorly" translation of Quran. Why not do more research before you convert? -
//If we want to classify ourselves by the ?name? Muslims, through the name Islam, we break God?s commandment of not divide ourselves into sects, because it is what it is, at least if we think it is a special religion exclusive to those who call themselves Muslim.//
Allah refers to the followers of Quran as Muslims. I do not comprehend your problem with this term. I am guessing it is the stereotype that is created in the Western media about the term "Muslim" which is preventing you from embracing it. Any other reason for rejecting this term, to me, is just lack of understanding of the Quran and its importance and emphasize of the term Muslim. I replied to Awal's post speaking of the 4 phases of being a Muslim. You might want to have a look.
//I must thank you for providing me with some additional information which I did not know, or if I did know it, you put new light to it, you had me thinking, even if I have not changed my mind regarding my perception of the Truth, as I am most certain about it.//
Fair enough.
//You said that I put Believer into a generic form, I say that I choose this neutral term because it means just as it is usually perceived, as someone who believes in God, since there is only one God, one religion, thus making the term Muslim less attractive, if one wants to be open to the world. //
Again, a typical Western- convert response. I have met so many people like you. it's so interesting how you guys come up with these abstract understanding of something so simple. / Yet, you have the right to call yourself whatever you are comfortable with.
//If it would be possible, if my passport had this information, to state my religion, I would have wanted it to say ?the religion of God? or ?God?s religion?, since it is the most accurate term. There is only one religion and that is God?s religion. Creating religious sects is just causing additional imbalance in the peace of the Earth, hence I free myself of the boundaries of a specific religion. If you want to call me ?Other? as religion, then please go ahead and do it, but I would say that it is Christian, Jew, Muslim etc, which is in the ?Other? category. For non-other, the choice is God?s religion. So it is either God?s religion or ?Other?.//
I had agree with you here. You are indeed among the "Other" category. Thank you for finally answering this.
// Your Arabic is certainly better than mine, but we must still contemplate the Quran?s true meaning. I respect the translations I have read and I am sure they did their utmost to present it as accurate as they could, considering Arabic is used in a completely different way than English. And I study the original Arabic Quran together with those who are more knowledgeable in Arabic than I am.//
Just be careful about those teaching you the Arabic. I am glad you are making the effort though. However, I like to end the discussion here and agree to disagree, respectfully.
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Okay to begin with. Can you please stop quoting my lengthy responses and only quote specific parts?
Thank you.
//Lets accept the meaning and theory of Momin according to your understanding, but than it left me wonder who Allah is addressing in Quran as a believer?//
Rida My understanding? I had say Parwez's understanding. And your question makes me want to quote a mohawara in Urdu, that "ap baal ki khaal nikal rahay ho" i.e "you are trying to rip skin off the hair"- it is used when someone is deliberately trying to analyze/ dig information from something that is very straight forward.
Even though, I shouldn't be justifying my beliefs to you, yet I don't want people to think I stepped back because I didn't have enough Quranic knowledge. I certainly do not want them to think that someone who copies verses from the Quran and posts them on discussion forms automatically qualifies to be "more educated" about the Quran. Learning from Jinnah/ Iqbal and Parwez- my elders have taught me to be mindful of the respect shown to the Quran/ Islam in general. Therefore, in my humble understanding, it feels like "you are making a mockery out of Quran" if you post a Quranic verse on a "random" discussion forum often accessed by trolls. Therefore, I very rarely quote Quran on discussion forums unless I have to, in order to explain a particular point of view. Previously I mentioned my annoyance with this guy called "amir" who had been posting entire Quran on this discussion forum and literally preaching to people. I don't like what he is doing, I don't agree with preaching and I certainly find it very insensitive of people quoting Quran where ever and whenever they like. It's pathetic. Really, it is.
To your second question, who is Allah referring to when he uses the word Salahiteen/ mutaqeen/ momin- of course he is referring to Muslims- to be generic. Because you wouldn't be a salahiteen/ mutaqeen or momin if you weren't first a Muslim. So again, don't try to rip skin off the hair.
//I think you started well in the post but you are inclining towards the same path that you started the post about. I expected that to backup your statements you should be quoting Quranic Ayats, with the knowledge and understanding you demonstrated about Arabic and Quran. Although, it is nice to know about Iqbal and Prevaiz but Allah (Ar-Rehman) takes precedence on all of them. //
Also, could you also elaborate how you translated Momin as a Peace Maker.
Peace unto you.
Allah does indeed precedes over any human understanding, but I trust these people's views. I have already told you why I don't tend to quote Quran unless I have to.
Look up my previous posts about the word Muslim/ Momin and see for yourself why Momin- indeed means a peacemaker. I think it is on page 2 of this discussion forum. I have also quoted Quranic verses there. Besides, weren't you the one correcting me on one of the verses quoting "mutaqoon" ? So then, you must have already read my lengthy post about the words Muslim/ Momin, where not only have I quoted scholars, but also the Quranic verses. Perhaps go read it again.
But do try not to rip skin off the hair. As the hair do not have skin.
Peace
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One thing I notice with some folks here - when you disagree with THEM, they say you disagree with the Quran itself. They say their views are 'quranic' or 'according to the quran' or 'the true view'. These are simply delusions of grandeur. In truth, ALL of us are subjective interpreters of the Quran.
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Salaam,
I am not in the mood to write another lengthy post to clarify my meaning, but I will try to "defend" my interpretation of the Message in short.
Those who are involved, the people who have a connection to the teachings of the "Ibrahimic" religion, all worship the same God, whether it be Christian or Jew, they all follow Islam.
The religion is not bound to this book, this Message have been along all the time, and it is this I try to convey with my posts.
The Message is not reserved for those who understand Arabic, it is a universal message to all mankind. The Message is present in the Bible, it can be present in religious literature and even someone's poem.
The recommendations from God are not particularly hard to follow, just understand the Quran?s/the Message's most important aspects and you are well on your way.
You write like I am in a critical need of guidance, while I am grateful of being one blessed by the Lord.
The most important aspect of the religion is to be a righteous person, a good person from inside out, and you can be that by just searching your feelings and looking for the Light. The Truth will come to the one who is honest with himself and open to it.
Already, as of today, I know enough of the Quran that I can live a good life with the acquired Knowledge. I trust sincere interpreters of the Quran who I can discuss the Quranic passages with that are more knowledgeable of the Arabic language and I know God has given me the ability to see what is true or wrong.
Even the Bible, before I ran into the Quran, taught me well on how to be and behave, as well as my own thoughts and meditation upon life. The Truth is not limited to the Quran only. The Book is a blessing and a mercy from God that He gave a book He composed Himself which is pure from any conjecture, and you can follow it knowing it is from Him who sent you.
I urge you to remove these preconceptions that Islam is a religion which is limited to people who know Arabic, Islam has absolutely nothing to so with Arabic and this culture at all. The Quran was revealed in Arabic while the old Jewish scriptures were in Hebrew and Jesus followers wrote in ancient Greek.
The Message is nothing confined to a certain book, it is something that came from God and any person can follow His Message. It is a lifestyle and not a set of rules, except for three major ones like I wrote previously. Jesus followed the Quranic teachings, the Message and the book in its physical form was not even written yet. And other messengers of old also lived by the same teachings, the Quranic Message has been present all the time.
I will be so frank as to say that I was a Muslim even before I read the Quran, that is my view of the Truth. This book or name of religion means nothing, when defining a righteous Believer. The Islam is like I said not the name of a religion but a lifestyle which you can follow by embracing the Message.
The Book is at it claims itself, a blessing and a guide to mankind, a help for one who seek more Wisdom and Knowledge, but to say you cannot reach Heaven without it is a bit ignorant to be honest.
Islam is nothing you can join, it is something you are, or a Truth you seek. I am here on this forum because these people give me lot of Wisdom and Knowledge, I can divide the Truth from falsehood myself. I "stumbled across" the Quran, and I use it as a source of religious teachings, but I do not look on the Truth the way you do.
You indirectly call me arrogant, but look at yourself. Those choices of words show pretty much.
I accept that you wish to believe Islam is limited to a group of people and I am not saying you are less knowledgeable than me, but we certainly do not have the same approach. You seem proud of your alleged knowledge and that is dangerous, if you know the scripture.
And please do not twist my words, I said people of religions other than God's religion are other. I did not admit I am other, I gave you the opportunity to use whatever you wish.
And atheists are not divinely guided, it was the kind of guidance I am talking about, of course. The majority of mankind does not follow the guidance if the have the opportunity, it does not only include disbelievers. God can have your eyes opened and guide you if you actively search for the Truth, thus giving an atheist guidance, although he is probably not an atheist any longer as he searches for answers in the divine.
Ok, now my post managed to become as long as I did not want it to become. It was not my intention.
Okay, I will too end the discussion after this post.
God bless you
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One thing I notice with some folks here - when you disagree with THEM, they say you disagree with the Quran itself. They say their views are 'quranic' or 'according to the quran' or 'the true view'. These are simply delusions of grandeur. In truth, ALL of us are subjective interpreters of the Quran.
Agreed. But I guess better to be subjective interpreters of the Quran than following it blindly, ey?
I feel the same about the whole 'disagreeing = ignorance/ arrogance'.
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Oh I embrace my subjectivity, Rida. It is what makes me human. Indeed I've seen some quranists calling others 'pagans' or 'spreaders of falsehood' when they themselves are fallible readers. To me this is a very big delusion. This is why we set up the Quranists Space. It's a place where you take what you find suitable. No one can tell you what or how much to take.
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I'll inject a post here then.
I'd like to agree with Man of Faith in his understanding on the quran, believers and arabic. I really like the post!
I know people who are not very knowledgeable about the quran, and has been brought up being fed all those ridiculous sunna and hadith stories... and still showing more understanding of life and the principles of the quran than most people who have studied it for a long time. God is indeed great. Some people will benefit from the quran, as a guidance and criterion, while others won't get twiddly twat out of it. I'm not being philosophical when I'm saying that some people get guidance form the quran, other don't, and it is all about their inner softeness and humbleness of the heart. God indeed guides whomever God wishes... and the quran is neither a guarantee FOR guidance or understanding, nor is the lack of familiarity with the quran implying a less degree of guidance. If pre-quranic prophets and messengers can be so pure and guided without the quran, then of course, "common people" can be very guided aswell. It is God who guides, not the quran. The quran is a tool for us poor human beings who may not be able to pick up guidance in any other, more refined and direct way.
Second of all, although there is a difference between mazhab and deen... many people who claim to follow a deen are in practical reality treating it as a mazhab/religion. The Muslims always say, in one and the same sentence, that Islam is the best religion, among religions, and also that it is not just a religion, but a whole life style. Yeah? What's the difference? There are loads n loads of people in any religion who is living it as a life style. Deen is not just a life style that you express when it suits you... it is not something you do... it is something you ARE and work on improving and develop.... it's a direction, approach or even point of view is some sense.
Cheers
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Second of all, although there is a difference between mazhab and deen... many people who claim to follow a deen are in practical reality treating it as a mazhab/religion. The Muslims always say, in one and the same sentence, that Islam is the best religion, among religions, and also that it is not just a religion, but a whole life style. Yeah? What's the difference? There are loads n loads of people in any religion who is living it as a life style. Deen is not just a life style that you express when it suits you... it is not something you do... it is something you ARE and work on improving and develop.... it's a direction, approach or even point of view is some sense.
Well, I'm still thinking about a definiton of Islam, but for now I would say the differnece between Islam as a religion and how I see Islam is that the religion tries to distinguish itself from others, by certain rites, by a certain language etc, while my understanding of Islam does not need that. On the contrary, it is the feeling of the one-ness of everything, represented by the one-ness of God, that is important and which may be present in people of different denomination, of different self-concept.
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How bout islam as a universal principle permeating everything?
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Salaam,
I want to thank you for the kind words, brother Zulf and for your elaboration, was nice hearing some other wise words.
The tone in this thread is quite bad actually, we shall not make Satan happy, shall we?
I just want to add one last thing
It is not the belief in God, prayers or knowing about eternal life which will cause most people to be doomed to Hell of those who believe. It will be the personality, and clearly, this parameter is constantly overlooked, and thus the biggest trap of them all.
God bless you, that you may not fall into the trap just mentioned
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Peace!
Well, I'm still thinking about a definiton of Islam, but for now I would say the differnece between Islam as a religion and how I see Islam is that the religion tries to distinguish itself from others, by certain rites, by a certain language etc, while my understanding of Islam does not need that. On the contrary, it is the feeling of the one-ness of everything, represented by the one-ness of God, that is important and which may be present in people of different denomination, of different self-concept.
and
How bout islam as a universal principle permeating everything?
Yeah, something like that... that's how I tend to think too
Salaam,
I want to thank you for the kind words, brother Zulf and for your elaboration, was nice hearing some other wise words.
The tone in this thread is quite bad actually, we shall not make Satan happy, shall we?
I just want to add one last thing
It is not the belief in God, prayers or knowing about eternal life which will cause most people to be doomed to Hell of those who believe. It will be the personality, and clearly, this parameter is constantly overlooked, and thus the biggest trap of them all.
God bless you, that you may not fall into the trap just mentioned
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It's very easy indeed to fall prey to one's own Ego, or satan, or whatever it is that leads to ruin and destruction. Only God can save us and help us build a strong character that can better withstand the constant temptations that lead towards misery and darkness. We must all constantly guard against this and be mindful...
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Another point, which I myself struggle with, is the knowing-vs-doing. It doesn't matter how much we believe in God, or how much we pray, or how many times we go to the mosque, or how often we sit on the prayer rug, or how universal image we have of God, or how correctly we understand the quran, or how wise we are. It's not really about this. The point is that, to a certain extent, it is futile to chase after more and more correct images of God, because God cannot be grasped. We are not meant to grasp God. However, we do live in this world, which was created for a purpose. We are put into this world by God. Why? Well, for a reason! This is why it is counter productive to shun the world like many so called spiritual people do... we are not supposed to shun this world that God gave us and put us into. God put us here, and many of us are rejecting it and think it is more spiritual to shun the world and worldly things. How ungrateful! We have to serve truth, justice and goodness THROUGH this world, not despite this world. Our faith in God is determined by how we act out our life, and not by what philosophies we adhere to. Faith is expressed through action, which needs a proper foundation, but nevertheless, action in any and every way is IT. So instead of comparing philosophies, we should compete in goodness through action.
Personally I'm a victim of over-philosophizing... having lots of very wise, keen and observant understandings in my mind... but despite this, still remaining blind, shut and in darkness. But God willing, I shall mend my ways and mend my life. God, goodness, righteousness and life is mostly not what we think it is. Just look at the world, does it seem most people get it? Look at this forum, does it seem most people really get it? Well, fortunately, things are not black and white, and no-one is perfect, and we are all on our own journey. We can move ahead if we work hard at it, with sincerety of the heart, or otherwise we'll just remain stagnant and complacent, not knowing what we are missing. We all have lots to learn, and we should never compare with eachother. It's so easy to lose focus. This is what I have understood, though I consider myself just a worm on the ground... but, God-willing, I will learn and purify myself too as much as I can.
In any case, God bless you all! Praise be to God!
And cheers! ;D -
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This is getting really petty now. Let's not allow our egoes to overtake us. I know I am guilty of this and it's a work in progress for me. Let's be respectful to one another, at least.
Salaam.
Salaam,
I want to thank you for the kind words, brother Zulf and for your elaboration, was nice hearing some other wise words.
The tone in this thread is quite bad actually, we shall not make Satan happy, shall we?
I just want to add one last thing
It is not the belief in God, prayers or knowing about eternal life which will cause most people to be doomed to Hell of those who believe. It will be the personality, and clearly, this parameter is constantly overlooked, and thus the biggest trap of them all.
God bless you, that you may not fall into the trap just mentioned
I agree... although it appears the moderators have taken care of it.
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So, the so called moderator deleted all the logical answers posted by me in the light of ayahs, it makes me wonder what kind of person who can delete the Allah's Ayats! Next, what! will you delete these verses from the Quran because your mate does not like it. You deleted my fuller explanation about Jihaad, Subalana and Mohsaneen. A very child like approach and hiding the truth from people. on the contrary, you will not delete the open session of abuse that I complained about from the post of xintai_1. Change the name of this website to Twisted-Minds it reflects you better.
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. 2190
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating , seeking bounty from Allah and pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. 4829
You sent me email saying do not judge people. So, who Allah is addressing in the Quran and asking them to say "QUL" do I have to read the ayats to myself? Who is asking to fight and to whom? What is the status of Criterion, that your buddy highlighted in the ayats 548, that you completely deleted without any hesitation. You did not even quote a single ayat in your email to justify your actions apart from you desires/hawa mention in the ayat below, how can you judge when you can not justify or understand the Quranic Ayats, I believe you judge through your mate ship!
And We have revealed to you, , the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation , but to test you in what He has given you; so race to good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ. 548
Peace
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Another point, which I myself struggle with, is the knowing-vs-doing...
Yes, of course this is very true, though I think to really act rightously, you have to feel that one-ness, and if ou really feel it (I myself still inly have a vague glance of it) maybe you cannot but act rightously.
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Salaam Awaal_Muslim,
I doubt it was the wisdom of your quoted verses or your wise words that caused your posts to be removed but the rudeness of some of your words, included in them. I could see it in not only your ones but also those from others.
Righteousness followed by ill-meant words do not go well together.
Now do not be offended, I just gave you my understanding of the situation.
I was also letting my emotions make me write a few long threads defending my standing, but I tried to minimize offensive language.
God bless you, that you may calm down and look at it with a new mindset
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you will not delete the open session of abuse that I complained about from the post of xintai_1.
Salaam,
I agree with you on that. I just checked and it looks like they deleted that thread. I also had to block him on youtube, so you are not alone in your experiences of him. They deleted the whole session where we got into a discussion over seals upon hearts etc. I can understand some of your frustration, I know I've felt that way sometimes. It's probably why I'm thinking of taking a step back from this discussion board for now.
There may be some people who are giving you advice based off of the Quran about character etc, but I wouldn't take it too personally. Everyone, and I mean everyone, has to learn this important aspect of putting things into practice. All of us make mistakes and maybe my mistake was getting involved in it at all.
May Allah shower you and all believers with Mercy and Blessings.
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Peace RidaKhan
I would ask, what is your true religion?, because the tone of voice in your writings sounds very arrogant, and to what I understand a Muslim should be humble, and should always keep in mind that he/she may be mistaking, and that only God knows the true meaning of words and verses.
4729Or do they in whose hearts is disease think, perchance, that God would never bring their moral failings to light?
4730 Now had We so willed, We could have shown them clearly to thee, so that thou wouldst know them for sure as by a visible mark but thou wilt most certainly recognize them by the tone of their voice. And God knows all that you do"That your passport says you are a muslim only means that you are a Muslim in the eyes of man, but that doesn't mean that you are. What if in the eyes of God you are Not?. Only God knows what is in the hearts of man.