Second Shahadah vs Actual Shahadah in the Quran

Jafar

When I read your question about Tao Ching, I thought it was a rhetorical question/device. I would say I do not know the Tao The Ching, but I have no reason to believe in its preservation as a text.

Your answer is actually my point...
The preservation of Tao The Ching (or other books such as Quran) doesn't really matter at all..

The point of this thread refers to an element of preservation. If the Quran is not preserved or part of the reminder and so on, then as I have mentioned, many times on this forum, and on this very thread I believe, the Quran is an oral recitation - that has HUGE implications about the ability to maintain an original message. Oral recitations are very often considered unreliable. How do we assume we know what the reminder God gives to us is and what isn't just a nice ideal that humans have created for ourselves??

Erggh... have you heard something about "Natural Observation" ????

How do you think Abraham, Jesus and others who lived before the Quran being written knows about "God's reminder"?

The other point was that, as I mentioned to you previously but you haven't understood, is that I was trying to understand, if you do not think the Quran is preserved as such, how do you approach the Quran, what do you believe are the preserved elements in its message, how do you discern which aspects remain truthful and which don't. Although, it doesn't matter now, as I clarify later.

The same as any other book (including Tao The Ching, Bible etc..) If it's good I keep it, if it's bad/evil I ignore it..

Do unto others have you would have done unto you - that's a good principle although it depends how one applies it and the rationale one uses as I mention below, but there is nothing to say that this has not simply come from human beings common sense.

What is 'common sense'? And what IF it is human's common sense?
Do you think God has no power to inspire or influence Human's common sense?

I think we just view this whole topic differently. I could ask you more questions about how you view God, Quran, and your approach to it but this discussion has not flowed along and is much more closed than others I have had on here. I'm also wondering if there is any need in us discussing this further.

The most important point that I'm trying to make is
Mono-Poly-A theist doesn't really matter, I'm beleaguered on this entire over-emphasize on 'mono-theism'.

It's the same 'disease' that got into Rabbanical Jews as told by the stories in the Gospel!
If you read the Gospel well enough, it is very clear that "mono-theism" is 'nothing special' (yet it's not bad either), doing good deeds is more important.

A good principle. But why would you think this is a preserved reminder? You believe that the part of the Quran that says that reminder is preserved is the accurate part of the Quran and that the Quran is referring to this? Or do you view it differently - that this is simply what humans have 'preserved' because we evolved this way?

I advise you to go beyond (merely) the Quran, read the Gospel, understand what it teaches, read Tao The Ching understand what it teaches etc.. etc.. and you'll start to see the 'essence' of all world's wisdom teaching.

I have to ask questions like this - I do not know what you believe, and I am not trying to ask these questions to antagonise.
But I asked in order to genuinely understand. Having said that, the way the answers have gone, I feel more I've asked these questions for anyone reading this to consider themselves, if they so wish.

Why does it matter on "what I believe"???
Isn't "What I DO" is more important???

From an atheist perspective, this isn't a reminder from God or any Creator, this is just human beings not even behaving empathetically - but rationally. They can argue it only helps to make people receive behaviours they would rather receive.

There are some people who may never refer to a reminder of any sort, but they are more welcoming and open with people than what I have found in this instance.

I searched posts for this word, and I couldn't find it at all. Saying "he said" "she said" doesn't seem to make any sense.

It would have been far simpler to say where we find common ground and whether we diverge considering this is a discussion that involves our viewpoints.

Here's the 'common ground',

"Do unto others as you would like to be treated"
because
"You'll reap what you sow".

The above concept/principle actually appears in ALL wisdom books written by men from different places who lived on different times.

And you know what... *** DRUM ROLL ***
THE SAME CONCEPT ACTUALLY ALSO APPEARS IN THE QURAN!
Yet using different words and sentences..

Now can you seek out where it is?

I only 'reveal' this now because I want to 'test' your POV..

Whether you have the self-confidence and the 'ability' to put 'your own conscience' above the thing which your environment consider as 'holy'..

The ability to put 'your own conscience' above the thing which your environment consider as 'holy' is the key which makes Abraham different from his people, Jesus different from his people, Lao Tse different from his people, Siddharta different from his people etc..

Salam / Peace

supportpeacenotwar

Peace,

I really feel there is no need to continue discussing like this. It feels tiring and at odds. I don't like to be sarcastic in my responses - in that sense, treating others as I would want them to treat myself - so I wouldn't go "drum roll please", or "erggh have you heard of this". That is how lack of reciprocity in communication causes communication breakdown. I find this hard and difficult to respond to, because I like to remain cordial or polite where possible and I just don't go for these types of discussions. It's just not the way I do things.

I actually mentioned on another post the whole point about natural observation - to Faithful in fact. I haven't even been talking about monotheism per se. I never even used that word. I even told you I didn't use a particular word, and instead of saying sorry my mistake, and moving on you continue to talk about monotheism. Of course I am going to mention belief in one God to an extent, the Quran talks about it a lot because it teaches our reality extends from God and God creates our concept of goodness. Whether or not the reader agrees with that, that is one of the main topics of the Quran.

You are making assumptions about me. When I have the self confidence and when I gain an ability? Wow, what brazeness. What environment? I don't even go to a mosque. People I know are either non-religious Muslims, other faiths or lack of faith. Some members of my family may even border on agnostics. No-one ever taught the Quran to me. I barely had a religious education. But this is not a place for me to tell you about my upbringing.

I never said that God does not give us common sense for a reason. What is the reason in explaining that point again? I will be over explaining myself. And this is a wow point for me You actually seem to think I'm saying that the Quran does not include "do unto others as you would want done unto you". Well, its clear if that level of misunderstanding occurs, its best to leave it there. This is like the "you used the word monotheist" again.

I think it is part of the Quran - I asked you if it is preserved because I was asking about your reasoning behind why you would say it is preserved. Why would the Quran talk so much about justice, kindness and charity if we are not to treat others as we would want to treat ourselves? I mean, that goes without saying.

I have read other works. But this isn't a competition on who's done what. And of course the Gospel and Torah mention monotheism, of course monotheism isn't special to the Quran. I mean, that's exactly what the Quran says. Anyone, anytime anywhere can accept monotheism. And btw, the stories of Abraham and Jesus teach that they had scriptures anyway, although thats besides the point.

You could have told about what you do, or your beliefs. I meant both anyway. You seem very aggrieved that I have asked questions and nothing I say seems to be right. So we can leave this here. There is no reason to continue. Your manner is hostile.

In fact, I used to a neo-pagan. I can still even tell people about the Wiccan rede or how to cast a circle. But your assumptions would not allow you to have believed that. I've already mentioned this elsewhere that I know of these new age faiths, I know that some people practicing in them are very open minded people and that Pagan can't be used to label people as some might think. There are also some people who may reject the concept of God right now but they will come to accept it later.

The Atheist I spoke to on Skype, even though he has a 'facetious' manner or however he put it, was actually more polite than you overall, he actually seemed fairly open to questions even though I completely disagreed with him and I didn't find him preaching at others about what parts of the Quran they ought to focus on and what they shouldn't.

I'm not here to fight, I know you'll insist otherwise but the way the discussion has gone, its clear how this is going. I would actually appreciate it if you wouldn't leave an antagonistic response. If I can't discuss in the right way that you want, then lets I'll discuss with those who are happy to discuss with me.

Jafar

Peace,

I really feel there is no need to continue discussing like this. It feels tiring and at odds. I don't like to be sarcastic in my responses - in that sense, treating others as I would want them to treat myself - so I wouldn't go "drum roll please", or "erggh have you heard of this". That is how lack of reciprocity in communication causes communication breakdown. I find this hard and difficult to respond to, because I like to remain cordial or polite where possible and I just don't go for these types of discussions. It's just not the way I do things.

I'm not 'fighting' you, and it seems that you lack the 'tolerance' of how other people say stuff.

Again the main point are

Monotheism is nothing special. As there are a whole bunch of EVIL people who are monotheist. Check out the history of the level of atrocities that monotheist can do, from pillaging, robbery, massacres, slavery, rapes.. It's evidenced that monotheist human are able to do such atrocities.
Doing good deeds is more important, and if you're asking about a reminder than it's more suitable.
Quran is not the ONLY and/or LAST revelation / enlightenment from God. Infact God's revelation continues up until today at accelerating rate.

Salam / Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace Jafar,

The actual actions of monotheists do not automatically render monotheism a wrong approach. Most people, no matter religion, are destined for Hell.

One thing you are right about, and it is that the righteous deeds and conduct of the Believers is most important for salvation, apart from believing that the Universe was created and the life does not end upon death.

Have you accepted the fact that other people may have a different opinion than you?

Many people around here believe the Quran to be the only exact wordings of God, apart from stone tablets long lost which were given to Moses.

Despite this, many of us, including me, gladly take a look at other words by righteous men such as those in the Bible, who were inspired and supported by God. Good for you that you can see the positive aspects of Buddhism, I like the meditation and some things from it myself.

I feel that you have an appalling attitude to be honest, and that you disturbed supportpeacenotwar' s peace. You try to teach people something, but do not live as you teach. How righteous is that?

To seek an inner peace within your soul and then let this peace spread around you is the main goal in Islam.

Supportpeacenotwar wants to stop talking to you because she cannot continue without becoming emotionally affected and can be a wise decision rather than it ruining the day. Rude people are certainly mood-destroyers and require lots of patience and self-control. If you are already in a bad mood, for whatever reason, it can be difficult to remain calm.

God bless you

supportpeacenotwar