Second Shahadah vs Actual Shahadah in the Quran

[Jafar]

Peace,

I really feel there is no need to continue discussing like this. It feels tiring and at odds. I don't like to be sarcastic in my responses - in that sense, treating others as I would want them to treat myself - so I wouldn't go "drum roll please", or "erggh have you heard of this". That is how lack of reciprocity in communication causes communication breakdown. I find this hard and difficult to respond to, because I like to remain cordial or polite where possible and I just don't go for these types of discussions. It's just not the way I do things.

I'm not 'fighting' you, and it seems that you lack the 'tolerance' of how other people say stuff.

Again the main point are

• Monotheism is nothing special. As there are a whole bunch of EVIL people who are monotheist. Check out the history of the level of atrocities that monotheist can do, from pillaging, robbery, massacres, slavery, rapes.. It's evidenced that monotheist human are able to do such atrocities.
• Doing good deeds is more important, and if you're asking about a reminder than it's more suitable.
• Quran is not the ONLY and/or LAST revelation / enlightenment from God. Infact God's revelation continues up until today at accelerating rate.

Salam / Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace Jafar,

The actual actions of monotheists do not automatically render monotheism a wrong approach. Most people, no matter religion, are destined for Hell.

One thing you are right about, and it is that the righteous deeds and conduct of the Believers is most important for salvation, apart from believing that the Universe was created and the life does not end upon death.

Have you accepted the fact that other people may have a different opinion than you?

Many people around here believe the Quran to be the only exact wordings of God, apart from stone tablets long lost which were given to Moses.

Despite this, many of us, including me, gladly take a look at other words by righteous men such as those in the Bible, who were inspired and supported by God. Good for you that you can see the positive aspects of Buddhism, I like the meditation and some things from it myself.

I feel that you have an appalling attitude to be honest, and that you disturbed supportpeacenotwar' s peace. You try to teach people something, but do not live as you teach. How righteous is that?

To seek an inner peace within your soul and then let this peace spread around you is the main goal in Islam.

Supportpeacenotwar wants to stop talking to you because she cannot continue without becoming emotionally affected and can be a wise decision rather than it ruining the day. Rude people are certainly mood-destroyers and require lots of patience and self-control. If you are already in a bad mood, for whatever reason, it can be difficult to remain calm.

God bless you

[supportpeacenotwar]

Peace Jafar,

The actual actions of monotheists do not automatically render monotheism a wrong approach. Most people, no matter religion, are destined for Hell.

One thing you are right about, and it is that the righteous deeds and conduct of the Believers is most important for salvation, apart from believing that the Universe was created and the life does not end upon death.

Have you accepted the fact that other people may have a different opinion than you?

Many people around here believe the Quran to be the only exact wordings of God, apart from stone tablets long lost which were given to Moses.

Despite this, many of us, including me, gladly take a look at other words by righteous men such as those in the Bible, who were inspired and supported by God. Good for you that you can see the positive aspects of Buddhism, I like the meditation and some things from it myself.

I feel that you have an appalling attitude to be honest, and that you disturbed supportpeacenotwar' s peace. You try to teach people something, but do not live as you teach. How righteous is that?

To seek an inner peace within your soul and then let this peace spread around you is the main goal in Islam.

Supportpeacenotwar wants to stop talking to you because she cannot continue without becoming emotionally affected and can be a wise decision rather than it ruining the day. Rude people are certainly mood-destroyers and require lots of patience and self-control. If you are already in a bad mood, for whatever reason, it can be difficult to remain calm.

God bless you

Peace Man of Faith,

Thank you for your support. I appreciate your kind words of sympathy. Yes, I did want to stop because I felt it wasn't going anywhere and could just lead to frustration and so on. I am only human after all. I just briefly checked over one of my earlier posts and I clarified most of my position there. A label doesn't mean anything, and I said that God has never commanded the indecencies and evils that Jafar has listed twice now. It's the Quran that states there are people who call themselves things but they don't actually do good works and behave decently and well. As I type this, I get the impression I've already mentioned this on this thread.

Like yourself and others here, I too enjoy looking at other faiths to find the wisdom that can exist within them, the way some new age faiths really appreciate nature. I believe the Quran also emphasises appreciation of nature and the Earth in the way that it describes all things as submitted and in praise of God in their own way. It's like all of creation is connected on that level too as well as being interconnected in many other ways.

And I had already reflected upon my discussion that I had with my Atheist contact on Skype and when he chose to use the style he had, I chose to overlook it and accept his explanation. I decided I would still continue discussing with him even then because I still believe I may be useful to an extent, and I am perfectly tolerant of his approach. This experience on here, though, showed for me that sometimes if it appears like it just meets a standstill and just feels soul destroying - then it is better for both sides to call it a day. I could have said some other things to Jafar but when I remember Allah's teachings and guidance in the Quran and I just feel like this type of discussion here is so removed from that.

May Allah bless, protect and strengthen you, Man of Faith.

[GODsubmitter]

Again the main point are

• Monotheism is nothing special. As there are a whole bunch of EVIL people who are monotheist. Check out the history of the level of atrocities that monotheist can do, from pillaging, robbery, massacres, slavery, rapes.. It's evidenced that monotheist human are able to do such atrocities.
• Doing good deeds is more important, and if you're asking about a reminder than it's more suitable.
• Quran is not the ONLY and/or LAST revelation / enlightenment from God. Infact God's revelation continues up until today at accelerating rate.

Salam / Peace

I agree! Good post, thank you.

[supportpeacenotwar]

I agree! Good post, thank you.

And I never even disagreed with the first two points, which I made clear in my earlier posts. I also never said the Quran is the only revelation, if anyone would take the time to read my posts they would see what I have said. So this is all rather bizarre to me.

It will be our faith and deeds that are held accountable, treating people respectfully should be one of them.

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

I understand that Godsubmitter' s post is like a kick in the head. I felt a bit upset too, but relax, it cannot be as bad as it looks I think.

God bless you

[supportpeacenotwar]

Salaam Man of Faith,

I think you're right, I felt like I should clarify that I wasn't in any disagreement over most of the points. it may be he hasn't be following all of this thread either.

May Allah bless and reward you for your efforts

[hawk99]

Peace All,

One cannot claim to be a monotheist and commit atrocities. Because monotheism
is to believe in the one God. Now that belief in the one God is demonstrated
by certain moral behaviors, while certain moral behaviors demonstrate that one is
not a monotheist. Satan can go to the masjid under the guise of being muslim and
have all the appearances of being righteous, but his/her immoral behavior exposes
that person as not a monotheist but hypocrite or a kaffir. You are what your conduct
reveals. By the way monotheist are special i.e., Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
Muhammad, the saints, the righteous.

Peace and love to all

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish,
the Christians, and the converts; anyone who
(1) believes in GOD, and
(2) believes in the Last Day, and
(3) leads a righteous life,
will receive their recompense from their Lord;
they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

peace

[supportpeacenotwar]

Peace hawk99,

In terms of my opinion, and in terms of this thread I refer to when people use a label to define themselves as Monotheists even though they don't really believe - that some of these people who are under the banner of Muslim or Monotheist are doing wrong. Just like every other group as well. The Quran is quite clear that there are some people who swear by strong oaths about belief but they don't believe at all. Like you say, it depends upon the individual's actual behaviour. As always, Allah is the best Judge.

May Allah bless and reward you for your efforts

[hawk99]

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

Thankyou for your well worded reply, but I reinterate that behavior (words + deeds)
is what defines a person not a self appointed title. If a person declares "I am charitable"
but in reality they are stingy, that person is not charitable but stingy. Then charitable
becomes a false identifier or a lie.

If we will, we can expose them for you, so that you can recognize them
just by looking at them. However, you can recognize them by the way they talk.
GOD is fully aware of all your works.

We will certainly put you to the test, in order to distinguish those among
you who strive, and steadfastly persevere. We must expose your true qualities.

God is All-Knowing

peace

[supportpeacenotwar]

Peace hawk99,

Thanks for your courteous response! I'm actually in complete agreement with you. Well said.

[Bender]

This word is always in construct--possessive phrase. "Ya" at the end is indicator of its accusative state; in nominative state it is written with Waw.

Salaamun alayka,

RED Yes I agree handshake

BLUE Thank you, I have to check similar words and ayaats to confirm or not. may take some time...

The role of a noun in a sentence is reflected by its case ending. "qaimam" is in accusative case. It is therefore circumstantial clause. This is Active Participle. Allah the Exalted is AlQayum. The manner how He the Exalted maintains everything is by the principle "bilqisti". "He the Exalted is the firm upholder of created realm with justice and equity".

Ok, thank you for explaining your point.
But what is your reasoning that it is NOT all three? Or NOT only malaikat and/or ulu al-ilmi?
in 2127 you thought it were both of them not only Ibrahim.

salaam,
Bender

[mmkhan]

Salaamun alayka,

RED Yes I agree handshake

BLUE Thank you, I have to check similar words and ayaats to confirm or not. may take some time...

Ok, thank you for explaining your point.
But what is your reasoning that it is NOT all three? Or NOT only malaikat and/or ulu al-ilmi?
in 2127 you thought it were both of them not only Ibrahim.

salaam,
Bender

Salaamun,

Red The word used 318 is which is singular. Please take a look at the same word in 375, 1012, 399 and very famous aayat 6211 and Malaaika and Ooluli3lmi are plural.

Hope this may help inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

[Bender]

Salaamun,

Red The word used 318 is which is singular. Please take a look at the same word in 375, 1012, 399 and very famous aayat 6211 and Malaaika and Ooluli3lmi are plural.

Hope this may help inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Salaamun alayka brother,

Thank you very much handshake Yes it did help alhamdullilah.
This raises some interesting questions hmm

never knew that 6211 is famous, doesn't look like some "controversial" ayaat.

salaam and may Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr ,
Bender

[supportpeacenotwar]

I've been advised that if a thread I wrote on a topic no longer represents the beliefs I have on the topic now, that I can write a post even if the thread is older because we can't delete or modify posts. So this post is about that my beliefs on the topic of the shahadah in the Quran has changed and the original post on this thread does not represent my beliefs on this topic of the second shahadah as commonly known. I think the second shahadah, as often referred to, actually makes sense considering the Quran as the final revelation from Allah swt. Other posts here, or on other threads, may also not represent my beliefs now, but I didn't have the time to go through each page and check the context of the discussion. I would simply say I follow Islam and the Quran, but not a Quran-only approach. I'm writing this only for reference, not really for discussion as I don't intend to log into this forum much at all and don't have the time for discussions either. I'm writing this post in case anyone does come across this thread by searching the forum and I don't want this thread to be misleading for anyone.