Hijab and verse 24:31; explanation without extrapolation
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Peace be with thee Israfeel,
Welcome back.
thanks
That clothing is a matter of how you define modesty and interpret Quran when it says what must be shown. Personally I find a middle way is the most reasonable solution. While not looking like ghosts the girls do not look like prostitutes either. Full-length garments is the key. And headdresses can be an addition of modesty as I discussed before in another thread.
What is so important in showing your body anyway?
I walk around down here in middle-east with temperatures in summer of plus 40 degrees C and I wear a long-sleeved shirt and full-length pants. People in Europe and even warmer parts of US should not complain I think.
The clothes if nothing else protect against the sun.
But compared to you brother (as far as I believe) I would not consider it compulsory as there is no compulsion in religion and I do not look down on women who wear less clothing, although I can get a bit nauseated if their clothes are a bit distasteful. I think that we should not make a wanton display of our innate beauty. And I consider masking the faces of women too extreme although I would not rebuke any woman for doing so.
And as you know I do not study or believe in hadith (of Muhammad).
God bless you
The Quran says that O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition! (Sura 7.27)
According to Islam, clothing serves three purposes 1. to cover your shame, 2. to be an adornment for you, and 3. to instill righteousness.
Now if you look at the non-Islamic society like Europe, you see that those people are wearing very little clothes and so they are not righteous. They value nakedness and make sculptures of naked bodies which they decorate their streets with. They put billboards of naked women which even young children are being exposed to. It is very evil what is going on. But Islam wants us to be modest and to wear clothes for that purpose. When you see our women covered in black veil you are reminded of the pure and pious women of the past, like Maryam (peace be upon her) and Fatima daughter of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them). And similarly, when you see the Muslim men in long white robes and white kufi, you are reminded of the ancient prophets mentioned in Quran.
Now when you see the Quranist man, he is dressed like a European, wearing short shorts and t-shirt, uncovered head, no beard, and no Noor emanating from him. And when you look at the Quranist women, she is wearing miniskirt or bikini and lipstick and high heels. So this is a clear difference between us Muslims and you Quranists.
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Where did the manner God is expecting out of us go?
Despite having different and conservative or extremist opinions there is no use of bursting out in bad language like this.
There are maybe even former Sunnis here who shared some of his thinking so it could be like cursing your previous self.
Remember there is a human behind the nickname Israfeel and so far he behaves well despite his controversial ideas about religion. He says this or that about Quranists but he is at least fairly polite in doing so.
He has a preconception that people want to look like Hollywood stars and he is entitled to his current state of mind. Putting myself in his place I can understand why he thinks some Quranist women seem like half-naked Hollywood stars and that Satan is driving them.
No matter of religious view most people are going right to Hell and the derailing here is just another testament to that. This is just the behavior God warns about in His Book and which we must refrain from even for those we consider our "enemies".
It does not matter if you are believing in God or not as long as you fail at parameter number three of the 'big criteria' you are most likely in bad trouble, ie by not being a righteous person. Yes, being misinformed is one thing. I think people can go to Heaven anyways as long as they fulfill the three criteria Belief in God, belief in eternal existence and being a righteous person. Sadly the third parameter many people forget about and superior knowledge in Quran or any other book cannot solve that unless the person lives as he teaches or is taught.
Perhaps Israfeel is here to test your Faith. See it that way.
God bless you that you may show the right islamic nature
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No wonder people hate Islam.
Because of people like Israfeel.
Bro, the permission for polygamy up to four wives is only in the case of orphans.
God gives people brain. How can you have sex with animals you moron?
I don't know whose translation you used. In Free-Minds translation, it contains the word LENGTHEN.
And peaceful Qur'an aloners have discussed about for countless of times.
And the verse 43 that you posted is not about having sex with but marrying them.
And your hadiths also don't tell either electric eel is haram or halal.
Where in Quran it says bestiality is forbidden? Only Hadith has forbidden bestiality, not Quran. So if you reject Hadith and follow Quran, then you can have sex with animals. Is that logical? This why we need Hadith.
The eel is not a fish so we can't eat it. Hadith only gives permission for fish.
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Salaam Israfeel,
I reckon there is a slight problem with your thinking. You see people as stereotypes rather than individuals. You saw my expression about my own clothing and I am following the Quran alone.
This view of women in mini-skirts who consider them to be "Quranist" is a bit extreme. I doubt very few women "Quranists" dress like this.
You see me, I believe too that clothing is a help to remain righteous and modest and I am perhaps in this category although I prefer to call myself simply muslim.
But I share your view of the Western vulgarity and undressing to be inspired by Shaytaan and that it is demoralizing for the whole society and is spreading like cancer all over the world.
God bless you
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Since when did Qur'an-aloners wear immodest clothes dear Israfeel?
You keep assuming and accusing Quran-aloners. You slander Qur'an aloners that Qur'an aloners in general are immodest, wear very little clothes etc.
Many of us are against that.
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Salaam Israfeel,
I reckon there is a slight problem with your thinking. You see people as stereotypes rather than individuals. You saw my expression about my own clothing and I am following the Quran alone.
This view of women in mini-skirts who consider them to be "Quranist" is a bit extreme. I doubt very few women "Quranists" dress like this.
You see me, I believe too that clothing is a help to remain righteous and modest and I am perhaps in this category although I prefer to call myself simply muslim.
But I share your view of the Western vulgarity and undressing to be inspired by Shaytaan and that it is demoralizing for the whole society and is spreading like cancer all over the world.
God bless you
Im glad you share my view. It's always good that we have the same foundation, then details can be discussed later. However, apart from you, it seems most other Quranists don't even have the same foundation. For example one user has just written recently that burqa and niqab should be banned. Is this what Quran teaches us? (God forbid)
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Okay Sir Israfeel, since you are dissatified by my post that I agree with banning burqa and niqab, I retract my words and I apologize for that.
I never say at all that I agree with women getting naked and showing promiscuity but I am dissatisfied by your reply to my post by saying that I wanted women getting naked in fact I didn-t say at all. It was either you misunderstood my post or you tried to slander me.
Salaam.
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How is it modest for a woman to uncover her face? Burqa is the dress of Muslim ladies since the time of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Quranist women don't observe veil, they wear English style clothes like the immoral English ladies who have no faith and no fear of Allah Tabbarak wa Taala. Burqa is the symbol of faith and love for Allah and love for modesty, while high heels and lipstick are the symbols of Satanism.
salaam brother
How is a woman suppose to get dressed when going for hajj?
salaam
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salaam brother
How is a woman suppose to get dressed when going for hajj?
salaam
Wa alaikum as salaam
In hajj women should not cover their face but if there are men who are nearby, then they can cover their face, but the fabric of veil shouldn't touch skin, it should be loosely drawn over, until the men have passed by. This is from an authentic Hadith from our mother of believers Aisha that they would do like this.
Notice that in Hajj all men dawn the Ihram, which is two pieces of unstitched coarse garments, but women do not. This shows that women's modesty is extremely important, even more important than men's modesty.
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Where did the manner God is expecting out of us go?
Despite having different and conservative or extremist opinions there is no use of bursting out in bad language like this.
There are maybe even former Sunnis here who shared some of his thinking so it could be like cursing your previous self.
Remember there is a human behind the nickname Israfeel and so far he behaves well despite his controversial ideas about religion. He says this or that about Quranists but he is at least fairly polite in doing so.
He has a preconception that people want to look like Hollywood stars and he is entitled to his current state of mind. Putting myself in his place I can understand why he thinks some Quranist women seem like half-naked Hollywood stars and that Satan is driving them.
No matter of religious view most people are going right to Hell and the derailing here is just another testament to that. This is just the behavior God warns about in His Book and which we must refrain from even for those we consider our "enemies".
It does not matter if you are believing in God or not as long as you fail at parameter number three of the 'big criteria' you are most likely in bad trouble, ie by not being a righteous person. Yes, being misinformed is one thing. I think people can go to Heaven anyways as long as they fulfill the three criteria Belief in God, belief in eternal existence and being a righteous person. Sadly the third parameter many people forget about and superior knowledge in Quran or any other book cannot solve that unless the person lives as he teaches or is taught.
Perhaps Israfeel is here to test your Faith. See it that way.
God bless you that you may show the right islamic nature
Salaam Man of Faith,
I have noticed that since a few weeks ago you only find faults and bad qualities in me whenever you reply to me.
Was everything that I posted before you posted this post useless?Regards,
Yuliana -
Peace,
The debate about 24/31 will continue until folks understand that a woman's modesty is
cultural and not an injunction for all women to dress alike. The deliberate vagueness
by God is an indication that 24/31 is not time bound forever but an overall instruction
to behave and dress decently. I contend that the vagueness allows for cultural differences
until the end of time.peace
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I agree that what is acceptable and what is not is a cultural question, but still I think that the aya is amongst other things about modesty the first part which is similar to what is said to the male believers, the rest is nto about modesty but about vanity and self-esteem and self respect.
Salaam
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Salaam Yuliana,
No, I do not. I just reacted on the bad language and personal insults. No more than that. I know this is very common. And I had a feeling of obligation to remind. It has occurred that I have sometimes fallen prey to this trap too.
God bless you
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Salaam Yuliana,
No, I do not. I just reacted on the bad language and personal insults. No more than that. I know this is very common. And I had a feeling of obligation to remind. It has occurred that I have sometimes fallen prey to this trap too.
God bless you
Salaam,
It's weird because you don't point faults, flaws and bad qualities in Israfeel.
Why me and only me?Why does almost everyone including in real life only find my faults and flaws '( '( '(
Regards with sadness,
Yuliana '( -
Salaam Yuliana,
I have not talked about anything personal. It was a general advice I came out with. I noticed the language seemed a bit inappropriate coming from a Muslim's mouth (or fingers) and since I wish you all the best I pointed this out. This certain behavior gives a bad show of those people who have decided to only use the Quran for guidelines. The Quran teaches proper conduct in a very clear manner.
Of course we wish to show we are better than those who are sectarian and thus we have to behave better without being arrogant.
Aggression is clearly a negative trait of those who believe as well as many other such similar ones as we can see by a little study of Quran.
As it seemed, Israfeel only got reasons to despise "Quranists". His arguments must be met with shrewdness not blunt force.
God bless you
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Again I didn't get an answer...if this is about behavior why are certain categories included? Why would you "show off" to your father?
Someone said"It is about vanity and self respect, and not about sexual mores.."
If this was true would it be logical that there are certain categories in front of whom you don't have to have these good qualities?
It is as for example to say don't lie but you can do it to certain categories? Wouldn't this be illogical? -
Where in Quran it says bestiality is forbidden? Only Hadith has forbidden bestiality, not Quran. So if you reject Hadith and follow Quran, then you can have sex with animals. Is that logical? This why we need Hadith.
The eel is not a fish so we can't eat it. Hadith only gives permission for fish.
Peace Israfeel,
You reason like a Madman, the Quran also does not forbid choking cats to death or
having sex with inanimate objects. -
A reminder for everyone to stay on topic!
Where in Quran it says bestiality is forbidden? Only Hadith has forbidden bestiality, not Quran. So if you reject Hadith and follow Quran, then you can have sex with animals. Is that logical? This why we need Hadith.
The eel is not a fish so we can't eat it. Hadith only gives permission for fish.
Where does it say it is allowed? if you're trying to be logical, how is it logical to assume it is allowed because it's not written in the way you want? notice the flaws in your questioning. You don't need the Quran to tell you bestiality is forbidden. You'll know what is permissible by understanding nikkah.
You don't need hadith to tell you that moreover hadith does NOT have an answer to every question.
If you wish to discuss issues with Quran/Hadith please start a new thread/topic and don't make a mockery of Quran because of your bias
Salam.