Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Users
Skins
  • Light
  • Brite
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse
Free Minds Forum Icon
  1. Home
  2. Critical Examination of Islam
  3. Quranic Divinity
  4. Worship Allah and not the Quran

Worship Allah and not the Quran

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Quranic Divinity
154 Posts 17 Posters 12.8k Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • M Offline
    M Offline
    muslims
    wrote on last edited by
    #17

    @muslims That definition only seems to have elements of '"organized religion" in mind though, "religion" means so many things

    @Nazzam Agreed

    Salam

    The definition...
    ...
    in which the belief in religion is rejected or absent

    Peace.

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • S Offline
      S Offline
      sword_of_tashayyu
      wrote on last edited by
      #18

      Firstly i did not mention that Arabic was the language of Allah All-Mighty

      So you agree that it is created. Talking about our school, the school of Ahlul Bayt, your sect did not exist at ALL throughout history.. rotfl

      Unless you imply that you are mutazillite. The Mutazili scholars also relied on ahadith from the Sunni (ie we call 'amma) sources.

      Next question, do you believe that our Master Mustafa (sawa) is infallible?

      And on another note to give divinity to a created book is shirk and you worship the Quran

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • S Offline
        S Offline
        sword_of_tashayyu
        wrote on last edited by
        #19

        QA is not a sect because unlike sects such as Sunni / Shi'a / Ahmadiyya / Ismaili etc, in this pure creed of Abraham, anyone who believes in one God and oneness of God, don't set up partners with God, believe in the Last Day etc have already been muslims, they don't have to pronounce the testimony of faith to become a Muslim.

        Sorry i am itching to respond to you, cant help it. How about those who oppressed the Family of the Prophet (sawa) and supported them?

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • N Offline
          N Offline
          Nazzam
          wrote on last edited by
          #20

          Salaam,

          The true interpretation of Sura al-Ikhlas reveals that Allah is not "God", this is acceptable. (read book).

          Nor is there to Him any equivalent
          (1124)

          Further, it is safe for us to say we don't know what is Allah and focus on our duty in the Qur'an. This is so since the Qur'an is a book about human beings and living creatures. It is a book about us and our duty.

          Peace.

          Dangerous grounds.

          But the premise that the qur'an states that there is no God, is incorrect, it clearly states otherwise.

          But..

          It is correct that God can not be described, not even by the word God.

          It is correct that any concept you may have about God, is deficient, and thus, wrong.

          It is even correct that the non religious, even the atheist, is often nearer to God than many religious people, cause a non-religious person often has a 'clean slate' on this subject and is sceptic and critical, which are very big virtues most religious people dont possess, and even reject.

          It is true the qur'an is a guide, but no book of law. You say the book is about us and your duty, no that is a simplification. Before everything, it is about introducing people to the existence of God.

          Strictly spoken, we don't know anything, but what we can know, is that there is a God. The standpoint that there is no, is untenable.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • M Offline
            M Offline
            muslims
            wrote on last edited by
            #21

            Firstly i did not mention that Arabic was the language of Allah All-Mighty

            So you agree that it is created. Talking about our school, the school of Ahlul Bayt, your sect did not exist at ALL throughout history.. rotfl

            Unless you imply that you are mutazillite. The Mutazili scholars also relied on ahadith from the Sunni (ie we call 'amma) sources.

            Next question, do you believe that our Master Mustafa (sawa) is infallible?

            Salam,

            All things are created but it is ridiculous to assume that Muhammad can create "makhluq" through his speech (the Qur'an).

            Further, why are you making personal assumptions on my behalf?

            Is this how you make your point?

            Peace

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • N Offline
              N Offline
              Nazzam
              wrote on last edited by
              #22

              Salam

              The Qur'an is not a religious book, and Islam is not a religion.

              Peace

              Islam is a religion, therefore the book is a religious book.

              Islam is a religion, cause its a proclamation of Gods existence.

              The quran is a religious book, cause its islams scripture.

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • N Offline
                N Offline
                Nazzam
                wrote on last edited by
                #23

                Sorry i am itching to respond to you, cant help it. How about those who oppressed the Family of the Prophet (sawa) and supported them?

                Your historiography is fictitious.

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  muslims
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #24

                  Dangerous grounds.

                  But the premise that the qur'an states that there is no God, is incorrect, it clearly states otherwise.

                  But..

                  It is correct that God can not be described, not even by the word God.

                  It is correct that any concept you may have about God, is deficient, and thus, wrong.

                  It is even correct that the non religious, even the atheist, is often nearer to God than many religious people, cause a non-religious person often has a 'clean slate' on this subject and is sceptic and critical, which are very big virtues most religious people dont possess, and even reject.

                  It is true the qur'an is a guide, but no book of law. You say the book is about us and your duty, no that is a simplification. Before everything, it is about introducing people to the existence of God.

                  Strictly spoken, we don't know anything, but what we can know, is that there is a God. The standpoint that there is no, is untenable.

                  Salam

                  So it is wrong to believe that "Nor is there to Him any equivalent" (1124) and the teaching of the Qur'an is followed (refer to definition).

                  Why?

                  Peace

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • S Offline
                    S Offline
                    sword_of_tashayyu
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #25

                    All things are created but it is ridiculous to assume that Muhammad can create "makhluq" through his speech (the Qur'an).

                    Further, why are you making personal assumptions on my behalf?

                    Is this how you make your point?

                    You did not answer my question, is the Prophet (sawa) infallible?

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • M Offline
                      M Offline
                      muslims
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #26

                      Islam is a religion, therefore the book is a religious book.

                      Islam is a religion, cause its a proclamation of Gods existence.

                      The quran is a religious book, cause its islams scripture.

                      Salam

                      Can you prove your conclusion from the ayat in the Qur'an?

                      Peace.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • S Offline
                        S Offline
                        sword_of_tashayyu
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #27

                        Your historiography is fictitious.

                        It comes from your book, Ummayad supporters yuck

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • N Offline
                          N Offline
                          Nazzam
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #28

                          Firstly i did not mention that Arabic was the language of Allah All-Mighty

                          So you agree that it is created. Talking about our school, the school of Ahlul Bayt, your sect did not exist at ALL throughout history.. rotfl

                          Unless you imply that you are mutazillite. The Mutazili scholars also relied on ahadith from the Sunni (ie we call 'amma) sources.

                          Next question, do you believe that our Master Mustafa (sawa) is infallible?

                          And on another note to give divinity to a created book is shirk and you worship the Quran

                          U are ignorant on the subject of islamic history. The mu'tazilites were not the first to claim that the quran is the only source of authority in islam.

                          You say that mutazili scholars also relied on sunni hadiths. This is a mistake.

                          Mutazili scholars did NOT 'rely' on hadiths, some of them 'used' them as historical or social references and only in legal contexts.

                          This is because the mutazilites methodology towards perceiving the world and processing knowledge, was fundamentally different from traditionalists.

                          The greatest mutazilite, Ibrahim al Nazzam, was claimed to have been a very strict quranic muslim, implementing the sola-scriptura methodology.

                          Except some minor groups, no mutazilite ever would give the hadiths religious relevance.

                          Later on, mutazilites would slowly be influenced by sunni and shia thought, due to pressing political reasons.

                          The mutazilites you assume to know, are no mutazilites. They are the product of sunni and shia polemics about the mutazilites.

                          Check

                          http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605045.msg337497#msg337497

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • D Offline
                            D Offline
                            diamantinehoneybunch
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #29

                            Firstly i did not mention that Arabic was the language of Allah All-Mighty

                            So you agree that it is created. Talking about our school, the school of Ahlul Bayt, your sect did not exist at ALL throughout history.. rotfl

                            Unless you imply that you are mutazillite. The Mutazili scholars also relied on ahadith from the Sunni (ie we call 'amma) sources.

                            Next question, do you believe that our Master Mustafa (sawa) is infallible?

                            And on another note to give divinity to a created book is shirk and you worship the Quran

                            No human is infallible.

                            Worship Qur'an?

                            Please go back to English school and learn what the word worship means.

                            Where in the Qur'an does it say there are humans that are infallible?

                            Our sect never existed throughout history?
                            Do you know a Sunni imam named Al Shafi? He debated and opposed people who only took and believed Qur'an alone as God's guidance.

                            Your Shia folks glorify Ali, Hussein, Muawiya, Fatima. It is enough to call it is a form of idol-worship.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • N Offline
                              N Offline
                              Nazzam
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #30

                              Salam

                              So it is wrong to believe that "Nor is there to Him any equivalent" (1124) and the teaching of the Qur'an is followed (refer to definition).

                              Why?

                              Peace

                              It is wrong to believe that 'nor is there to Him any equivalent', is capable of defining God. It is correct as a statement.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • N Offline
                                N Offline
                                Nazzam
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #31

                                It comes from your book, Ummayad supporters yuck

                                Lets state it comes from 'my book', how come u as a shia hold on to that historiography?

                                As for your reaction, I have nothing to do with Ummayad supporters.

                                You do. Even more than you think. Your whole shia doctrine is defined by interaction with the ahl al-hadith, and it wasn't chrystallized until well into the 18th century.

                                How about that?

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • N Offline
                                  N Offline
                                  Nazzam
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #32

                                  You did not answer my question, is the Prophet (sawa) infallible?

                                  He was fallible, as the quran clearly states over and over again.

                                  And your imams were fallible too.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • M Offline
                                    M Offline
                                    muslims
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #33

                                    It is wrong to believe that 'nor is there to Him any equivalent', is capable of defining God. It is correct as a statement.

                                    Salam,

                                    So.. what is Allah?

                                    Peace.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • N Offline
                                      N Offline
                                      Nazzam
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #34

                                      No human is infallible.

                                      Worship Qur'an?

                                      Please go back to English school and learn what the word worship means.

                                      Where in the Qur'an does it say there are humans that are infallible?

                                      Our sect never existed throughout history?
                                      Do you know a Sunni imam named Al Shafi? He debated and opposed people who only took and believed Qur'an alone as God's guidance.

                                      Your Shia folks glorify Ali, Hussein, Muawiya, Fatima. It is enough to call it is a form of idol-worship.

                                      You are wasting your time on people like him

                                      Shia sources also talk about the quran-only methodology, like the Tabaqat of Yahya ibn al Murtada.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • N Offline
                                        N Offline
                                        Nazzam
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #35

                                        Salam,

                                        So.. what is Allah?

                                        Peace.

                                        We don't know.

                                        We can only philosophize about the creation, and induce that according to our comprehension of nature, it points out to the necessity of nature to be the result of the existence of God.

                                        Before I moderated the text, I said 'God must exist', which is wrong. God isn't bound to any necessity.

                                        God is and God is not, are identical truths (provided that no dogma follows the equation), but God is even 'elevated' above this statement.

                                        Which makes 'atheism' impossible.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • M Offline
                                          M Offline
                                          muslims
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #36

                                          Asalamualaikum sword of tashayyu,

                                          You are not answering the question, making false assumptions on others and keep diverting from one issue into the others.

                                          First you ask..

                                          what is your view of the Quran is it eternal word of Allah or is it Makhluq (created being)?

                                          This is a really weird question.
                                          Everyone here knows that the Qur'an is a hadith.
                                          It is the speech of Muhammad
                                          It is Muhammad's words, and the message of Allah

                                          Arabic is not the actual language of Allah (cf. Bible, Torah etc.)
                                          There is no way it can be the actual words of Allah or a Makhluq.
                                          Muhammad is not a "Creator"
                                          and no one knows the nature of the revelations (whether it is in words etc)

                                          Therefore, there is no issue that the Arabic Qur'an is the eternal word of Allah or a Makhluq.
                                          It is merely a guidance in the language of Quraish tribes.
                                          Human language!
                                          Simple!

                                          For this reason, I asked you

                                          Since when Arabic is the actual language of Allah?

                                          What is your answer?

                                          Firstly i did not mention that Arabic was the language of Allah All-Mighty

                                          So you agree that it is created. Talking about our school, the school of Ahlul Bayt, your sect did not exist at ALL throughout history.. rotfl

                                          Unless you imply that you are mutazillite. The Mutazili scholars also relied on ahadith from the Sunni (ie we call 'amma) sources.

                                          Next question, do you believe that our Master Mustafa (sawa) is infallible?

                                          And on another note to give divinity to a created book is shirk and you worship the Quran

                                          I don't know what is so funny about my question.

                                          and we can see that you provide no answer, and instead
                                          You are making personal assumptions on my behalf
                                          Claiming things I have never said
                                          and diverting from the real issue

                                          Maybe you don't understand the issue
                                          Therefore, I make clear the issue so that you may understand our discussion.

                                          All things are created but it is ridiculous to assume that Muhammad can create "makhluq" through his speech (the Qur'an).

                                          What is your reply?

                                          You did not answer my question, is the Prophet (sawa) infallible?

                                          You divert from the issue and making another set of question.

                                          Are you capable of understanding the issue and point of our discussion?

                                          Peace.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
                                          0
                                          Reply
                                          • Reply as topic
                                          Log in to reply
                                          • Oldest to Newest
                                          • Newest to Oldest
                                          • Most Votes


                                          • Login

                                          • Don't have an account? Register

                                          • Login or register to search.
                                          • First post
                                            Last post
                                          0
                                          • Categories
                                          • Recent
                                          • Users