What is Islam?

David_Saidi

Yes I agree if din is not simply means religion, but also system, laws and excetera.
For me Islam can be both a religion (relation between human and God) and the way of life (application on verses in daily life).

The definition of religion is simply human's behavior to find and connect with their deity.

By saying this, I still disagree with the concept of pluralism.
Islam, Christian, Hindhu is same?? Yes they're religion and worshipp the deity(ies).
But are they entirely same ?? No especially in theology and theaching.

Can we merged all religions into single teaching? NO, circular reasoning will occurs

Intolerant against others is oppression, but religious assimilation is mockery/insult toward a creed/God/god.
Both of it is a herecy for me

That's not my point. . . my point was we were all from Adam, as one nation. .

I already told you if Adam in your view came from Biiblical story (or some false concept).

You get wronged to understand "single ummah" in the QUran and I also already explain it.

Adam is the first khalifa not the first human and the single ummah (2213) doesn't means we belong to the single nation (patrilinear-matrilinear blood), but it's about people who divided in term religious teaching.

Read 333-34, the descendants of Adam are Nuh, Abraham, Imran and they're appointed as khalifa.
So if you see the term "Son of Adam" in the Quran means we are the ummah under Adam's Caliphate concept not Adam's blood descendant.

But still Allah know best

muslims

Can we merged all religions into single teaching? NO, circular reasoning will occurs

Intolerant against others is oppression, but religious assimilation is mockery/insult toward a creed/God/god.
Both of it is a herecy for me

No one is speaking about "merging all religions"
I am talking about "ad-deen", our way of life. . . not about belief

and our way of life has no religion
It is natural in every human beings
It is only concern with the elements of "just" or "unjust"
and "balance". . . how to bring "balance" in the most "unjust" situations
This is "hikmah" . .

Regarding this "way of life" (hablum minannas), Allah already make it clear. . .

To Him belong the possessions of the heavens and the earth
He spreads out the provision for whoever He wills, and He measures it.
He is fully aware of all things.

He has decreed for you the same system <- below is referring to "religion" vs. "ad-deen"
He ordained for Noah,
and what We inspired to you,
and what We ordained for Abraham,
Moses
and Jesus

"You shall uphold this system and <- the system of "just" vs. "unjust", balance...
do not divide in it." <- No Sectarianism, ie. assimilation.. assimilate with the society

Intolerable for the polytheists (idol worshipper) is what you invite (unity) them towards <- contradicting the above concept
God chooses for Himself whoever He wills
He guides to Himself those who repent.

And they only divided after the knowledge had come to them
due to resentment among themselves
And had it not been for a predetermined decision from your Lord
they would have been judged immediately
Indeed, those who inherited the Book after them are full of doubts.

For that, you shall preach (speak for balance and justice)
and be upright, as you have been commanded <- meaning of an upright man
and do not follow their wishes (for sectarianism). And say
"I believe in all that God has sent down as a Book,
and I was commanded to be with justice between you. <- hablum minannas, unity, assimilation
God is our Lord and your Lord.
We have our deeds and you have your deeds.
There is no argument between us and you. <- hablum minallah, no dispute! It is personal preferences.
God will gather us all together, and to Him is the ultimate destiny."
4212-15

Regarding "hablum minallah"...

O you who believe, you are responsible for yourselves
none who are misguided can harm you if you are guided
To God is your return, all of you, and then He will inform you of what you have done
5105

and Allah will not accept religionism, sectariansim and bigotism

And whoever seeks a "dnan" (&#1575 other than Islam
it will NEVER be accepted of him <- ie. Sectarianism, Religionism, Bigotism
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(385)

Therefore it is clear that hablum minallah is a matter of personal preferences
They are free to believe in whatever they want

Our concern is only "hablum minannas". . .
To establish balance and justice in the society
and this requires "assimilation". . not "submission"

And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth
authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it
So judge between them by what God has sent down
and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth

For each of you We have made laws, and a structure
and if God had willed
He would have made you all one nation
but He tests you with what He has given you <- Hablum Minallah
so strive to do good <- Hablum minannas, this is our job
To God you will return all of you
and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute. <- Hablum Minallah. He will inform, not us!
548

I already told you if Adam in your view came from Biiblical story (or some false concept).

You get wronged to understand "single ummah" in the QUran and I also already explain it.

I'm referring you to the direct ayat of the Quran
We are the descendants of Adam
Regardless of whether we are labelled as Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Christians etc . . .

Therefore. . .

It is quite okay to be Sunni, Hadithers, Buddhist, Hinduist, Satanist, Luciferianist or etc. since no "religion" has a monopoly on truth and believe it or not, we are all those things, at one time or another.

David_Saidi

Salaam

Yes I know if deen can also be means system.
If we talking about Islam, the parameter is not only philossopy (falsafah) but still not avoid the theology/intepretation.

Despite "way of life", Islam can also be labeled as religion
Why?? Islam has definiton of God and proper rites (salat, fasting).

http//s17.postimg.org/ih7z4dej3/py_wof.png

Way of life is hablum minannas, it's about how we lived in society (horizontal)
While religion is hablum minallah, its about how we worshipp the GOD (vertical).

Way of life and religion has same point Talking about morality
But parameter (good and false) of what is moral, this is what "way of life" and religion differs in.

Islam, Christian, atheism has their own definition of true and false
Pluralism is ultra-assimilation and it's idea planned to merged the parameter (the unity within religion)

"You shall uphold this system and <- the system of "just" vs. "unjust", balance...
do not divide in it." <- No Sectarianism, ie. assimilation.. assimilate with the society

Yes you're true if this is your definition of assimilation.
As muslims we're allowed to participate in society as long we don't divert the GOD's teaching.

For sectarianism... it depent on what context we talk about.
Sectarianism is label for people who different in theology/religion.
But in this differences doesn't make us to be divided in society and this is how we need assimilation.

I'm referring you to the direct ayat of the Quran
We are the descendants of Adam
Regardless of whether we are labelled as Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Christians etc . . .

I already explain to you.
OK which part you don't understand??

Son of God (in Christian) doesn't mean we're offspring of GOD,
Son of Adam (in Quran) doesn't mean we're offsrpring of Adam.

No verses said Adam is the first human nor Quran spoke for who and what Adam is.
Secondly our civillization started in Tanzania, millinea ago, before migrated to another lands.
So we cannot gurantee so easily if we're the blood descendant of Adam.

Son/Bani of Adam, I assume this term if for the the believer or people who accept Adam, Ibrahim and Imran as the khalifah.

But still GOD know best.

muslims

Way of life is hablum minannas, it's about how we lived in society (horizontal)
While religion is hablum minallah, its about how we worshipp the GOD (vertical).

That could also be true, but what is the meaning of "religion" + "way of life" ?
Could it mean "religion" or "way of life" ?
How can "religion" (sectarianism) and "way of life" (nonsectarianism) mixed together ?

. . .

Secondly, I believe you are making your own interpretation of the "ad-deen"
Try search the Quran for that word and it is always understood as "religion"

If it is a "religion", then what difference does it makes with other religions?
For example, how can it fit with this verse?

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (1096)

The Hinduist or others can easily say, sure "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion"
See? It is meaningless. . .

. . .

Thirdly, I believe the definition have been corrupted since there are at least four words with different "root words" have been categorized as "religion"

. . . so many verses (&#1616
. . . madhab (&#1576 . . . belief, religion, hold a belief, ideology, trend, manner
. . . verse 2120, 130 dan 135 (&#1614. . . religion, to dictate, embrace a religion, creed/faith...
. . . verse 2.138 (&#1614. . . code of law, religion

For example

http//i58.tinypic.com/sov1a9.gif

My point is, I believe this should not happen and the meaning should not share the same "root words" since Allah said

an Arabic Qur'an, without any deviance that they might become righteous.
39.28

I believe this is the loophole and the meanings of the Quran have been corrupted
"The word "religion" share many root words and thus, the Arabic meanings can be deviated".

and contradictorily . . .

The Quran has described Islam as Ad-Din, which is generally translated as religion. However, in the light of the above meanings, it should be clear that this is not only incorrect, but distorts and negates the very meaning of din. Islam is not a religion (madhab), and it has never been described as one in the Quran.; <a href="http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm">Islam A Challenge to Religion</a>

and . . .

Dn as Used in Islam

It has been said that the word Dn appears in as many as 79 verses in the Qur'an, but because there is no exact English translation of the term its precise definition has been the subject of some misunderstanding and disagreement. For instance, the term is often translated in parts of the Qur'an as "religion". However, in the Qur'an itself, the act of submission to God is always referred to as Dn, rather than as Madhhab (&#1576, which is the Arabic word for "religion".

Wikipedia

. . .

I already explain to you.
OK which part you don't understand??

I ask you, which part you don't understand?

My point is. . .

We are the descendants of Adam
Regardless of whether we are labelled as Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Christians etc . . .

and the Quran says . . .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?"
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

David_Saidi

How can "religion" (sectarianism) and "way of life" (nonsectarianism) mixed together ?

Since Quran is the book of Theology, so main subjects spoken on it is about religious system.

2208
"Enter to Islam completely!!" (enter a madzhab)

385 And whoever follows other than Al Islami dynan ( &#1575, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers. (follow another madzhab will not get the salvation)

This verses is enough to prove if Islam according to Quranic cotext mostly refer to creed.

Proof 1) Give the rules for rites - Kitaban mawqutan/scheduled times for salat (4103)

Fasting rules (2184-5)
etc
While "way of life", we can practice somethings as long as not for religious purpose

Forbids to embrance other teaching, hadiths beside the Quran (7750) (talking about theolgy/informal system)

While in "way of life" concept, we're allowed to adopted hadith as long as not for theological purose
(ex math book) (talking about our daily activities/formal system)

This is why I define Islam in the Quran as a theology, creed.

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (1096)

This is why Islam in the Quran defined as a creed.
Ex Me (Buddhist) and you (moslem) study in SMK Damansara Jaya.
Formality we're same, we both students of SMK Damansara Jaya and this how we involved in "assimilation"
But in term of religion we're different (theology/salvation)

I ask you, which part you don't understand?

My point is. . .

I hope we're not stuck in this issue for long times.It looks like you didn't read my explanation.
Many words in the Quran has alternative meanings and shouldn't always translated too literally.

Example - Ayat literally means sign but in Quran it means verse.

Nisaa literally means women, but in Quran it means wives

Son of God, descendant of God.
Now I ask you, what is the proof if you're descendant of Adam?? (Since you're a Malay or Tamil maybe)

I'm tired to re-explain, but you may re-read Quran again for knowing more.

muslims

How can "religion" (sectarianism) and "way of life" (nonsectarianism) mixed together ?

Since Quran is the book of Theology, so main subjects spoken on it is about religious system.

2208
"Enter to Islam completely!!" (enter a madzhab)

Then it is simple, the tail of an elephant is not an elephant..

Therefore, it is not madhab. . .

and you did not answer the issue of . . .

My point is, I believe this should not happen and the meaning should not share the same "root words" since Allah said

an Arabic Qur'an, without any deviance that they might become righteous.
39.28

I believe this is the loophole and the meanings of the Quran have been corrupted
"The word "religion" share many root words and thus, the Arabic meanings can be deviated".

. . .

Secondly,

This is why I define Islam in the Quran as a theology, creed.

This is why Islam in the Quran defined as a creed.
Ex Me (Buddhist) and you (moslem) study in SMK Damansara Jaya.
Formality we're same, we both students of SMK Damansara Jaya and this how we involved in "assimilation"
But in term of religion we're different (theology/salvation)

The above conclusion does not answer the following contention.
In fact, it is supporting my conclusion.

The Hinduist or others can easily say, sure "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion"
See? It is meaningless. . .

. . .

Thirdly,

I hope we're not stuck in this issue for long times.It looks like you didn't read my explanation.
Many words in the Quran has alternative meanings and shouldn't always translated too literally.

I read your argument and it is "Ignoratio elenchi, also known as irrelevant conclusion. It has been described as "attacking what the other fellow never said"

My point is simple, "we are descendants from Adam" and I give the ayat to support my conclusion, that's it.
However, your argument has nothing to do with the above conclusion, and it is wishful thinking.

David_Saidi

Then it is simple, the tail of an elephant is not an elephant..

Therefore, it is not madhab. . .

and you did not answer the issue of . . .

My point is, I believe this should not happen and the meaning should not share the same "root words" since Allah said

an Arabic Qur'an, without any deviance that they might become righteous.
39.28

I believe this is the loophole and the meanings of the Quran have been corrupted
"The word "religion" share many root words and thus, the Arabic meanings can be deviated".

Because this not even a question )

The above conclusion does not answer the following contention.
In fact, it is supporting my conclusion.

Because we aren't in debate,
We share same argument = we got an agreement in a subject.

I read your argument and it is "Ignoratio elenchi, also known as irrelevant conclusion. It has been described as "attacking what the other fellow never said"

Sorry I don't care about this method )

My point is simple, "we are descendants from Adam" and I give the ayat to support my conclusion, that's it.
However, your argument has nothing to do with the above conclusion, and it is wishful thinking.

And I already give explained before atleast two times, but you didn't respond it.
Instead you keep bringing the same arguments multiple times and still claiming as wishful thinking

Ok I want to log out for a while, I'm hungry )

muslims

Okay, no problem.

muslims

The universality of Islam is not uniformity but unity in diversity.

muslims

goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil . . .

http//i61.tinypic.com/63r9es.gif

Jafar

goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil . . .

http//i61.tinypic.com/63r9es.gif

Nice diagram,

Without evil how can we tell good?
Without good how can we tell evil?

Is there "good baby" and "evil baby"?
No, babies are just babies, they don't do evil thus they don't do good.

Back to answer the main topic,

islam is an attitude.
It is an attitude of "acceptance" a "surrender" to what has happened, what is happening and what will happened in the future.
It's an attitude recommended by sages of the past such as Jesus, Moses, Siddharta, Lao Tse and hundreds of today self help book's author.

Through islam attitude one will find happiness and peace.
If you haven't felt happiness and peace then you're not yet islam.

Through "acceptance" a "surrender" to what has happened, what is happening and what will happened in the future, one shall have no worries, no envy, no despair, no regrets, no anger. Just peace thus happiness.

It's a simple concept, very easy to say but it's very hard to perform.

Salam / Peace

muslims

It's a simple concept, very easy to say but it's very hard to perform.

It is true and just a matter of perspective, ie.

It's a simple concept, very easy to say (from the perspective of a Deen) but it's very hard to perform (from the perspective of a religion.. sectarianism and bigotism).

and that's why...

(So) you have your din (sectarianism, bigotism),
and I have my Din (living justly balanced and human unity)
(109.6)

It is an absolute separation of way or system of life, which requires wisdom and acceptance of all religions..
Everyone and everything is one, (3.83 below). . and
It is therefore almost impossible for the sectarians to practice Islam.. sadly,

And whoever seeks a "dnan" (&#1575 other than Islam
it will NEVER be accepted of him
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(385)

plus . . there is no shortcut for the hypocrites to Islam.. .

Allah would not leave the believers in that you are in
until He separates the evil from the good
(3179)

It is therefore "a simple concept, very easy to say but it's very hard to perform"

Through "acceptance" a "surrender" to what has happened, what is happening and what will happened in the future, one shall have no worries, no envy, no despair, no regrets, no anger. Just peace thus happiness.

Yes and one should realize that...

to Him have submitted (&#1614 those within the heavens and earth (3.83)

Therefore, what is there to resist since everyone and everything have submitted to Allah, willingly or by compulsion.

It also follows that Islam is not about "submission" since everyone and everything have submitted to Allah

But Islam is about "assimilation" of good and evil as one. . Ying and Yang, and I must admit that in some aspect of their faith, it looks like these peoples are more Muslim than the Muslims themselves.

David_Saidi

goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil . . .

http//i61.tinypic.com/63r9es.gif

hehehe CHINA NAK TIPU URANG MUSLIM!!! rotfl

As muslim we must tried to uphold the white whatever the black is existed.
If necessary the white must have more percentage than black.

If we keep silent and weak, slowly the black will coloured the white withouth you noticed.
If we keep pouring the oil in a glass of water, then the water will spill out by times

White is ma'ruf while black is munkar,
The YIN YANG balance actually just a fake utopia while actually doesn't exist in real life

Salaam

David_Saidi

Qin Dinasty Propaganda http//islaminchina.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/authenticity-of-seek-knowledge-even-as-far-as-china/
http//salafiaqeedah.blogspot.com/2012/04/hadithseek-knowledge-as-far-as-china.html

Fake always fake http//islamqa.info/en/13637
http//islam.stackexchange.com/questions/5311/is-this-a-authentic-hadith-seek-knowledge-even-if-you-have-to-travel-to-china
http//www.al-mawrid.org/pages/questions_english_detail.php?qid=1084&cid=511

Some groups may using religion, god to make moneys

Salaam

David_Saidi

Erased/double post --

muslims

As muslim we must tried to uphold the white whatever the black is existed.

Yes, you as an individual, not as a whole. . . "your life"

How about others?

ie. more than 7 billion peoples on earth, and trillion of other living creatures ?

and..

And if you were to harm (them) in retaliation
harm them to the measure you were harmed
16.126

and 18.68-82 (Moses and Khidhr)

And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?

and. . .

The YIN YANG balance actually just a fake utopia while actually doesn't exist in real life

It is just their symbol for understanding about life, no big deal if its fake or not. .
It is irrelevant unless among the sectarians

hehehe CHINA NAK TIPU URANG MUSLIM!!! rotfl

The main point life is about balance

The main point is Allah do command justice and balance in the society

God orders
justice (creating balance)
and goodness
16.90

Justice, is about "balance" . .
Sunnatullah, is about "balance" . .
Everything is about "balance" . .

There is no such thing as everything is "white" (good) or "black" (evil)

Have you not learned something after so many years living on earth as a human being?

David_Saidi

Sorry muslims, you hijacked many verses in the Quran so I cannot respond yours

Have you not learned something after so many years living on earth as a human being?

Yes I already learnt anything, many aspects and even good and bad side of somethings.
There is nothing such as Yin Yang balance, that was just a jokes created by chinese clerics.

Humans created with desire, to uphold and keep their ideology existed, somewhat they will see the other group who opposed as an obstacle.

The muslims will tried to spread their teaching to non muslims via da'wah or invasion in the past time
The Christian has term named "Lost Sheep" means people who still not believe in Jesus as God,
according to them both you and me is the Lost Sheep and we're the target of their misionary/evangelist activities.

Remember, some Sacred Books properchied the doomsday, at that time the people fighting each other, spill blood, no balance at all.

So even Yin Yang authorized by god, fake still a fake.

By saying "China nak tipu", I don't propgandate anti China ethnically/physically but just their attitude.
I love Chinese, but little of them I befriend to because of that

We can befriend each other with the Chinese, but we still have our identity
Both you and me already live together with the Chinese for along time, but unlike you, me is type of person who learn the darks side of something, learning something for how to filter some other concepts
Just like I already learn the dark side of Quranist and Sunnism hehehe

muslims

There is nothing such as Yin Yang balance, that was just a jokes created by chinese clerics.

So the "IDEA" is a joke and unjust simply because it is created by the Chinese clerics ?

Is Sunnatullah a joke?

and of course, I've said it . . .

It is just their symbol for understanding about life, no big deal if its fake or not. .
It is irrelevant unless among the sectarians

You seem to simply ignore the verses and points I'd given above.

David_Saidi

sorry brother, I already edited mine post )

Please re-read again.

muslims

My question remain and in addition . . . what is wrong with this idea?

http//i61.tinypic.com/63r9es.gif

Is it wrong because of the "idea" itself . . .

. . .or is it wrong because the "Chinese clerics" invented this idea etc.?

How about this example, a mosquito... is it a joke?

Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example
that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it
And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord
But as for those who disbelieve, they say,
"What did Allah intend by this as an example?"
He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby
And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient
2.26