Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Not sure what you're referring to here so apologies if I have misunderstood. Yes God owes us something. God is our Creator. He owes us food, clothing, brains so we can understand, guidance, mercy and forgiveness if we repent. He made us to live in a world where we are dependent on him. He didn't make us independent so that we can make our food from nothing. He made us so that we have the ability to learn, to have a wondrous brain which has a huge capacity to learn and take things in. God needs to provide the means to utilise this and all the other senses he has given us. God hasn't made us perfect which is one of the properties we can use to distinguish between us and him, God is perfect we are not. If we make a mistake I think it's fair to have the oppurtunity to repent. Some people were always going to be evil and lie and make up false things in the name of God. God owes us guidance incase we forget and incase the revelations become corrupted by other humans.
All of creation is dependent on God, that's how they have been created, God says in the Quran it's up to him to provide sustance to all living things. Those who accept it and obey, God is pleased with them.
Can we demand anything from? I don't think so. Can we ask and pray for it in a humble manner, by all means.
Why does God "owe" you those things? Do you "owe" a pot you make, something? Or can you freely decide its use and smash it up if you wish? You think God owe's those who do good a reward? God doesn't owe them anything, God invented the legal system and can change it freely, it isn't that Justice is over God, determining what actions God takes. Justice is under God, and God can make smashing babies a great thing of virtue if God wanted, because God can create anything. God doesn't "owe" you anything. You are the one who exists specifically because of God, God doesn't need you or owe you anything at all, if God wanted to make your eyeballs fall out into your hand, who could stop God? Who could say "That is unfair!" when God can create anything, can even make you think that it is fair or right or a great thing.
Does God owe the fish or the worm? Does God owe the worm who gets stepped by a person who doesn't pay attention and have its body split horribly as it wriggles and blood spews out while it remains stuck to the ground and can't get away even from its own effluence?
Does God owe that worm something?
How about the child that God makes have a horrific disease, is that Justice? Does God owe that child something?
Maybe you just have a different understanding of the word "owe".
"Sense of "to have to repay" began in late Old English with the phrase agan to geldanne literally "to own to yield," which was used to translate Latin debere (earlier in Old English this would have been sceal "shall" by late 12c. the phrase had been shortened to simply agan, and own (v.) took over this word's original sense. "
That God is indebted to us and has to pay us.
Do you really think that God has to pay us for our good deeds? Do you really think that God is forced somehow to do that? God is not ruled over by any system. If God gives you anything good, it is done so freely, not because you ever deserved any of it. If God gives you anything bad, it is done so freely, and God creates you ever moment exactly how God intends.
To say we are not "perfect" (and I know you must mean perfectly "good" or "just" according to this system), is to say that God does not create exactly what God wills, that God's "hand" slipped, that God makes mistakes, that the one who is perfect does not accomplish perfectly or exactly as God intends.
No, God created all this, and God creates exactly or perfectly what God wants without flaw, so if God wants to create such a thing as a "child rapist" that is absolutely without flaw exactly what God makes exist. There is no mistake, God didn't "slip up".
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You should read the example of Cain and Abel. Abel said go ahead and kill me it's not for me to retaliate, maybe some of my sins will removed and given to you.
In the battles of the prophet Mohammed the believers are warned never to turn their backs to the enemies unless it be a stratagem of war. If any did so they would die in the end anyway and face God at some point.
So as a believer it is your duty to turn yourself in if you have done a crime. The Quran tells us that when we know that we are on the right side of the law we demand justice, but when we are on the wrong side of it we try to escape it. This is wrong. You can't escape from justice.
It isn't wrong. Muhammed was on the wrong side of the "justice system" of the Pagans, and so was Ibrahim. Do not turn your backs means kill your enemies who try to kill you, and those Pagans who were fighting them were the ones who owned the city and it was their laws that were being broken and reviled by the Muslims who were breaking their laws and customs, so no, do not turn yourself over, otherwise Allah would have said "go hand yourself over to the pagans, your return is to Allah" no, Allah said kill them, and the Muslims were breaking their laws and their customs.
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Which prophets were on the wrong side of the law?
The prophet Mohammed was exercising his right to pray freely and call people to a new religion (which is in fact the old original religion but the pagans considered it new). He did not force anyone. The pagans didn't like it when they saw people converting. Maybe they were scared of losing their power or felt insulted/offended that their cherished religion the religions of their fathers was going to disappear. It was the pagans who attacked the prophet and his followers. It was they who declared war. The Quran clearly says that the believers can only fight those who fight them. The believers cannot go and force religion on people even if they win in a battle and take over a place.
I'm not sure how you get the idea that it's "Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive". Seems like you haven't read the Quran properly.
We cannot overthrow a government. If the government orders the army to kill you, you have a right to defend yourself or leave the country. Leaving the country is actually best since what's the point in fighting against a group of people who don't want you. God will provide a better place.
So it's never necessary to break the law or be the first to attack people. If we don't like the law then we have the choice to leave. There is no need to kill people. All disputes can be handled peacefully. If someone wants your shirt, give them your cloak as well.
Musa, Muhammed, Ibrahim, Lot, Shu'aib, and many others were on the wrong side of the laws and justice systems that were established for those people. Musa broke the law and ran, Ibrahim broke property and created chaos and reviled the customs and broke their laws so was going to be executed for it, Lot was opposed to the laws and customs of those people, Shu'aib was breaking the law, Noah was breaking the laws and customs of his people.
What "exercising his right" haha, do you think he was in America? He became a law breaker, and the law breakers were expelled.
I know they declared war, they declared war because he was considered a law breaker, a terrorist, a threat to society, people who reviled the law and the customs of their people, he was a law breaker.
I have read the Qur'an properly. When there is oppression in the land, and when you are being forced or killed or harmed, even if open war is not declared, you have every right to fight back, to kill, to overthrow the corrupt governments. I think your obsession with justice is a bit gross really, and it makes you untrustworthy too. If the laws of a people are bad and not in your favor, you must do what it takes to survive and should work against those laws or escape them, and if necessary, if the people are doing violence to you and your loved ones, you should destroy them and overthrow them until oppression is no more, even if they don't openly declare war on you but are clearly fighting and making war on you, you must fight, fighting is created by God.
We aren't Christians Ted, we don't lay down and die, there would be no religion if that were the case today and people had laid down and died and Muhammed handed himself over to the laws of the land.
If the Government wants to kill you and your family, and if you can not escape, then you kill them and that is not a "right" the Police don't say you have a "right" to defend yourself against them if you are considered a law breaker, but our survival is more important than what they say and you must kill or be killed, run or be run over, and survive to live and fight another day.
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Abraham was not a terrorist. He did not frighten others. He was alone, he could do no harm to anyone. He offended the pagans, that is not terrorism.
The law that Abraham broke was that he damaged someone else's property. He was young and if justice were to be served he should have been made to pay for the damages. The prophet Mohammed was ordered to only defend himself if he was attacked. He never broke any law.
Different cultures have different justice systems. Abraham was a terrorist, he terrorized the people by breaking their idols and making a public scene and threatened their way of life, threatening them and destroying the images of their God's they held dearest were acts of terrorism for them. So they decided he should be executed. Our Master, who does not abide by Justice nor is Bound to Justice, turned the fire cold. God showed that God can change anything, and God can choose and favor anyone.
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It's just wrong of you to say that God is the greatest potential enemy of all.
When Moses saw that his fellow man was having a dispute he should have found out what the dispute was over. If his fellow man had said that his brother or somone close in his family had been murdered by the Egyptian then Moses should have taken him to the authorities. There is no reason at all for him to strike and kill him.
God has given his law to us, we are expected to follow it and administer it even if it goes against us.
Is there some greater potential enemy than God? If God is made the enemy of someone, and God can not be defeated, then how is God not the greatest potential enemy and threat and the one that needs to be feared the most? Maybe you're misunderstanding my language use because of emotional attachments to certain words.
No, sometimes you can't "reason it out" something you're in the heat of the moment, and you should know that the EXACT METHOD of DEATH was DECREED for that person at that time, so do you think some accident occurred? That the person wasn't supposed to be killed by Musa precisely that moment? That doesn't mean we shouldn't repent, but it wasn't Allah's mistake, Allah wrote that story.
No, if you break the Law, even the Law of Allah, you repent and you survive, and your dealings are between you and Allah. You do not hand yourself over to humans if they are going to kill you and end your ability to do more good deeds, you will die when and in the way you're supposed (so if God makes you foolishly go hand yourself over, so be it) but you should survive by all means to live a life doing good thereafter.
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For me Islam is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of Islam as argued by traditional Muslims.
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For me Islam is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of Islam as argued by traditional Muslims.
Did you know those things were practiced in the past too? That worship was an important part of the cultures from around the world and part of the "good deeds" in the belief of the Hindus, the Zoroastrians, the Chinese, the Buddhists, the Egyptians and whoever else from around the whole world? Its supposed to be a good deed for yourself to yourself.
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Did you know those things were practiced in the past too? That worship was an important part of the cultures from around the world and part of the "good deeds" in the belief of the Hindus, the Zoroastrians, the Chinese, the Buddhists, the Egyptians and whoever else from around the whole world? Its supposed to be a good deed for yourself to yourself.
I absolutely didn't say that worship is useless or unimportant. But I've come to the conclusion that basic values like justice, peace, doing good deeds etc. are far more more important.
If praying 5 times a day was the most important aspect of Islam (which it absolutely cannot be), then how come the "Islamic world" is in such a terrible mess?
So much ignorance, suffering, barbarity, intolerance, wars, chaos, hypocrisy and basically all that is unislamic and evil can be found in all Muslim countries. This despite the fact that probably hundreds of millions of Muslims pray 5 times a day. How is that working out for us? Obviously, rituals are not the essence or objective of religions, good conduct is. Rituals are just means to remember God.
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Peace Recluse,
For me Islam is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of Islam as argued by traditional Muslims.
bravo Agreed!
I am assuming you meant "islam" with a small "i" rather than Islam with a capital "I".
Islam is the religion of Muslims (capital M) and rituals are the basis of that Islam.
Islam is not the same as "islam".
Islam or Muslims are never mentioned in al-quran, but "islam" and "muslims" are mentioned.
Please see the following for what islam means according to al-quran
http//www.free-minds.org/introduction-peacefulness
http//www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html
You should have phrased your statement as follows
"For me "islam" is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of "islam" as argued by traditional Muslims"
Muslims (capital M) actually violate a lot of commandments of al-quran.
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you.
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Peace Recluse,
You should have phrased your statement as follows
"For me "islam" is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of "islam" as argued by traditional Muslims"
Muslims (capital M) actually violate a lot of commandments of al-quran.
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you.
Peace truthseeker11,
Sorry, I don't know Arabic.. but I'll check your link, thank you..
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Peace Recluse,
If praying 5 times a day was the most important aspect of Islam (which it absolutely cannot be), then how come the "Islamic world" is in such a terrible mess?
Praying 5 times a day is the most important aspect of Islam (capital I).
However, praying 5 times a day is not even present in the quraanic "islam" (small "i".
Salaat doesn't mean "prayer" in al-quran.
Nowhere does al-quran say to "pray" 5 times a day.
The word for "pray" in al-quran is "du'a" and not "salaat".
This is why I was telling you that Muslims (capital M) violate al-quran.
For more details of what "salaat" means in al-quran please see the following by Ayman and Wakas
http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-English-part3.pdf
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you.
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Peace Recluse,
Praying 5 times a day is the most important aspect of Islam (capital I).
However, praying 5 times a day is not even present in the quraanic "islam" (small "i".
Salaat doesn't mean "prayer" in al-quran.
Nowhere does al-quran say to "pray" 5 times a day.
The word for "pray" in al-quran is "du'a" and not "salaat".
This is why I was telling you that Muslims (capital M) violate al-quran.
For more details of what "salaat" means in al-quran please see the following by Ayman and Wakas
http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-English-part3.pdf
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you.
Thank you truthseeker,
I'm still undecided about salat, but I'm merely seeking the truth. Thanks so much for the links, I will bookmark them.
May God bless you too...
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Is it that you think I'm not thinking?
Adam and Eve were right, they were forgiven immediately, there was nothing wrong with eating the fruit, it wasn't the "cause" of anything, it was an event which demonstrated the techniques of Satan in a harmless way, they became guilty after they did it. I would not be guilty if I killed my enemies to survive.
What those brothers did was very wrong and had bad intentions as well, and they hid it and hurt their father for years, yet it had good things come out of it.
Allah is writing all these stories. Allah says to repent if you make a mistake, and does not give the message of handing yourself over to your enemies. Your sense of justice may be a bit skewed or too extreme. God can do anything and make anything true and can forgive anything, or is it you believe in the God locked in a legalistic mire, who needs a human sacrifice to forgive the sins of mankind? Are you one of those who might say Allah's hand is fettered? What do you think the partners people used to make with God were? The ancient God's were just words for things, like "Time" and "Justice" and God is not fettered, so if you make a mistake, then continue to survive to do good another day is my advice and even seems to be the advice of the Qur'an. Were Adam and Eve immediately killed? No, not even Satan was immediately killed. Allah is the one who gives reprieve and gives a chance to amend, not a strict legalistic God because God is free of such things and can do anything and it is on God who we rely for everything, so if one makes a mistake, they should ask for forgiveness. Was Cain killed immediately? No, he was guided. Allah is the greatest.
You need to learn English properly then go back to understanding the translation of the Quran. God is bound by his own Words. He is just no matter what the situation.
Are you born Muslim or a convert?
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You need to learn English properly then go back to understanding the translation of the Quran. God is bound by his own Words. He is just no matter what the situation.
Are you born Muslim or a convert?
FreedomStands so you are a born Muslim. Very good to hear. What is your purpose in life and how should you live it? I'd advise you to understand the Quran properly before you answer.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Is all the debate totally based on one single remark ?Allah is our greatest potential enemy??
Can we not see the word ?potential? in the sentence.If I choose to repress my faith then yes Allah is the greatest potential enemy that I need to be worried about..
298 Who would be an enemy of Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael? Then indeed Allah is an enemy of the ones who repress (faith).
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
What is the debate again?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaikum.
Is all the debate totally based on one single remark ?Allah is our greatest potential enemy??
Can we not see the word ?potential? in the sentence.If I choose to repress my faith then yes Allah is the greatest potential enemy that I need to be worried about..
What is the debate again?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanThat's just stupid. No one can never be consider God to be an enemy. That is one of the stupidest things I have heard. You're obviously not a muslim. Even Satan does not consider God as his enemy.
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God's purpose for everything is that they do and be exactly as God intends them, and that is always the case no matter what.
My purpose is to seek pleasure and avoid suffering at all costs (and God is the true source of both that can ultimately provide lasting forms of each, so to deal with God in order to achieve pleasure and avoid suffering in all ways and every way particularly in the most lasting and ultimate ways).
This is achieved generally first by surviving and living, eating etc, shelter, defense, clothing, then of course to do good and worship and ask for Allah for guidance and whatever we want and to spare us from suffering and work diligently in the cause of goodness and charity and decreasing suffering around us too. Do unto others as you would have God do unto you. So to give mercy within reason if you want mercy, to give gifts if you want gifts, to be gentle with creatures because you too are in the same plight and are a creature in need, and not to frighten or cause anxiety in them, etc.
Do you really think I don't know the Qur'an or understand it, yet you are under the impression that whereas I do not understand the Qur'an, you do understand it? Certainly that is a wonderful gift you have been given.
So your purpose is to seek pleasure and avoid suffering. Where in the Quran or Bible does it say that? I think I may have got it all wrong. Please do teach me.
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That's just stupid. No one can never be consider God to be an enemy. That is one of the stupidest things I have heard. You're obviously not a muslim. Even Satan does not consider God as his enemy.
Well once you are done with your name calling... (stupid, stupidest ets.) perhaps you could clarify exactly what part of "Allah is an enemy to the faith repressors ( َ you find difficult to understand?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman