Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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Wakas,
bi-anna = 'in that' literally and more eloquently 'because'
bi-kaifa = 'with how' or 'in how' and more eloquently 'due to how'
ma'a alladhee = 'with what' or 'with that which'
If there are other subtleties that I remember later I will try to post them.
Salaam
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Huruf,
First I want to stop talking about "privileges." We are not talking about privileges, we are talking about duties. Stop trying to obtain privileges and start trying to fulfill your duties. When we all get on that page, we will be on the right page.
Secondly, there is no need to exaggerate the issue and say that men become like animals or wild beasts. Your tendency to insult men here, not recognize their strengths and your inability to understand men or be sensitive to their gender tendencies is sexist and grossly arrogant on your part. Disdain for men and ambition for rank, power and privilege are NOT the traits of the faithful. Men have their weaknesses and women have theirs. Our faults were not equally doled out. We also have strengths and weaknesses both as genders and as individuals. Allah knows these things. We should be respectful of each other and of Allah's commands.
Invalid777,
How is not leading prayer or being able to pray in mixed company the position of a victim? How is having separate spaces for women and for men so that they can pray without worrying about thinking lustfully victimizing? Where women are unjustly harmed, or not given services owed to all human beings then that is victimization. When women are not valued for real skills that can help the community then that is ungodly and unjust discrimination. But is anyone forbidding women from praying or worshiping their Lord? Is anyone saying that they are not allowed to help whenever they can? When did Allah say that leading the prayer is a privilege? When did Allah say that the prayer must even be led?!!! That's the real kicker! Allah doesn't even say that the prayer needs to be led, yet Huruf wants to latch on to an unquranic Sunni/Shia practice in order to feel as equally privileged as she feels men are.
Even as we consider the irrelevance of Huruf's postulation, let us consider that the Quran tells us after Mary (saas) is born 'The male is not like the female' 336. So how about we let Allah tell us what our roles and duties are and we do our best to not seek arrogance, privilege or glory but to fulfill what Allah wants from us so we can get the real glory and privilege in paradise?
Reel,
It is much more prevalent in the man to think about sex when he sees a woman than vice-versa. I think this is established scientific fact. It doesn't mean that he become a ravenous animal. But it does imply more inner struggle. As far as being grandma's age, what if the man standing behind her is also grandma's age? I see what you are trying to say but situations can arise that easy cancel out the 'safe' situations that you are insinuating. That is why I said that I do not believe that it is the best practice.
Invalid777 and Huruf,
Women should be highly appreciated for the fact that (in general) they bear and suckle children but how about we come to appreciate them as humble servants of Allah seeking to fulfill their duty to Him in every way, instead of as "baby machines" as Invalid777 said. Whether you hate religion or not the Quran is a book of religion. God's religion. And whether you like it or not religion is the backbone and skeleton of civilization. Aside from that, I never insinuated anything about the color of clothing a woman should wear although I do take a stance on not wearing form revealing clothing. With that said I disagree with a lot that our fellow Muslims do but I will not attack them, rather I will try to understand them and learn to disagree with them in an intelligent and tolerant fashion, as I should do with all other religious beliefs and practices I disagree with.
Salaam
It is useless to debate with you. You do not seem to care about the Qur'an, just your own opinions which are really cruel to men, classifying them as beings uncapable of having any self-comand. The fact that to impose on women extra duties to pay for that lack of self-command that you you resort to call the nonsense yyou invent scientific and speak about estra rligious duties of your invention for women is not virtuous at all. But that is your business.
At any rate you do not bring any qura'nic or rational arguments that would warrant any further exchange on this. A repetition of groundless assertions does not make those assertions any truer.
Salaam
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Reel,
It is much more prevalent in the man to think about sex when he sees a woman than vice-versa. I think this is established scientific fact. It doesn't mean that he become a ravenous animal. But it does imply more inner struggle. As far as being grandma's age, what if the man standing behind her is also grandma's age? I see what you are trying to say but situations can arise that easy cancel out the 'safe' situations that you are insinuating. That is why I said that I do not believe that it is the best practice.
I studied with men in school and university. God knows, how they got A's when the exams were based on lectures. After all, we women in the class were the distraction huh?
But show me a paper that says men during prayer think about sex when they see a woman. What I know is that two Zoroastrian men thought like that and they were no men of science. One claimed of inventing some weird thing that could correct stories from chinese whisper, but never left any evidence of how he did so and thus, no one was able to apply it.At present, however, this is what I have got from research https//www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-sexual-continuum/201112/how-often-do-men-and-women-think-about-sex
Yet if men have such impure mind, by your own logic, it would be best to ban them from praying in groups. Do note that among men, there can also be homosexuals.
You still allow hadiths to guide your mind and that's pretty sad.By the way, we know from Sodom and Gomorrah that straight men can have sexual thought about people of their own gender. So it seems that the man leading the congregational prayer can also be distraction for men behind him.
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(Reminder)
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
(Quran 4913)"The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise."
(Quran 971)God knows best
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I studied with men in school and university. God knows, how they got A's when the exams were based on lectures. After all, we women in the class were the distraction huh?
But show me a paper that says men during prayer think about sex when they see a woman. What I know is that two Zoroastrian men thought like that and they were no men of science. One claimed of inventing some weird thing that could correct stories from chinese whisper, but never left any evidence of how he did so and thus, no one was able to apply it.At present, however, this is what I have got from research https//www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-sexual-continuum/201112/how-often-do-men-and-women-think-about-sex
Yet if men have such impure mind, by your own logic, it would be best to ban them from praying in groups. Do note that among men, there can also be homosexuals.
You still allow hadiths to guide your mind and that's pretty sad.By the way, we know from Sodom and Gomorrah that straight men can have sexual thought about people of their own gender. So it seems that the man leading the congregational prayer can also be distraction for men behind him.
Regarding this temptation thing, indeed, the kind of "landscape" before the eyes of those men that would not be in the first row of the prayers, if the have any homosexual atom, would be really trying for their morals. rotfl rotfl rotfl For them women would be much better.
Salaam
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peace Anwar,
I've read your post several times but I still dont follow. You seem to be saying its non-conditional but the options you gave for "bima" still make the statement conditional.
434 says...
the men are the qawwamoon of women
because / due to how / with what
God preferred/bestowed SOME of them over others (masculine plural)
AND
because / due to how / with what
they spent of their moneyPoints to note
Not all men, some. And due to what they spent.
e.g. if a man does not spend on women the man cannot be considered qawwamoon.Ergo, conditional.
Wakas,
bi-anna = 'in that' literally and more eloquently 'because'
bi-kaifa = 'with how' or 'in how' and more eloquently 'due to how'
ma'a alladhee = 'with what' or 'with that which'
If there are other subtleties that I remember later I will try to post them.
Salaam
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Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
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Religion (Merriam Webster)
1
a the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic scrupulous conformity conscientiousness
4
a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faithDeen
Discipline (include law), Duty, Dues, Judgement.
It's meaning of religion is in it's meaning of discipline and duty.
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Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
That is correct.
Salaam
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Religion (Merriam Webster)
1
a the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic scrupulous conformity conscientiousness
4
a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faithDeen
Discipline (include law), Duty, Dues, Judgement.
It's meaning of religion is in it's meaning of discipline and duty.
I can understand that you think the quran is a book of discipline and duty.
But I do not understand Gods discipline and duty. God has no religion, people do but not God. -
God's religion means the Religion from God or sanctioned and promoted by God. Possessives work like that grammatically.
Salaam
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peace Anwar,
434 does not say "Ba3dh bi-ba3adh" or "ba3dh 3ala ba3dh", it says "baAAdahum AAala baAAdin", thus your translation would seemingly be
the men are the qawwamoon of women
because / due to how / with what
God graced each other (of) them* over others*
AND
because / due to how / with what
they spent of their money*masculine plural
Perhaps you can give us your explanation of what is being said here, with specific reference as to whom the masculine plurals are referring to.
And answer this simple question can a man be considered qawwamoon if he does not spend on the women yes/no?
Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
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This is exctly the same construction as in several other cases i the Qur'an and in grammars it is perfectly defined and described, and it is reciprocal clause. why in this particular 4.34 SOME translators mke a mess of it, I do not know, but there is no ambiguity in it. It is the very same clause which appears repeatedly in the Qur'an and always translated as reciprocal.
Salaam
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421
The logic of
Al-ba'dh ilaa/bi/3alaa ba3din is always one group doing to another, where both groups belong to each other. The believing men and women are one community and we all have our roles to play. God is distinguishing them here. 'God has made men caretakers, leaders and managers over women in how he has grace one (part of the group) over the other (part of the group) and in how men spend/invest'
Here, two parts of one group are distinguished. Ba'dh can also be used for multiple groups engaging in one event. It's really pretty simple. It is only complicated if you don't want to deal with the reality of what it's saying. What it is NOT saying is that men have the right to be rogues and tyrants over women. Nor do women have the right to act like rogues and tyrants with men. This is about our duties and responsibilities to Allah and fulfilling what he commands of us. That's it.
Salaam
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Wakas,
There is no difference grammatically. I should have been more specific. It is either al-ba'dh bi/3laa/ilaa/fee-ba3dh or ba3duhum/kum/hunn/hu/haa bi/3alaa/ilaa/fee-ba3dh.
There is no way around the fact of this matter Wakas. As much as our Libertine and Liberal Greco-Roman palates may not like it. Allah has a plan for us in this life so that we can obtain the glory of the next. That's it.
Salaam
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peace Anwar,
Perhaps I'm not being clear enough, so I will clarify. For the words in coloured bold below, whom are they referring to
God graced each other (of) them* over others*
*masculine plural- You have 3 options them
A) men
B) women
C) men+women- You have 3 options others
A) men
B) women
C) men+womenMy question is real simple, and needs no more than a 4 letter response, e.g. 1a 2a
Thanks. -
421
The logic of
Al-ba'dh ilaa/bi/3alaa ba3din is always one group doing to another, where both groups belong to each other. The believing men and women are one community and we all have our roles to play. God is distinguishing them here. 'God has made men caretakers, leaders and managers over women in how he has grace one (part of the group) over the other (part of the group) and in how men spend/invest'
Here, two parts of one group are distinguished. Ba'dh can also be used for multiple groups engaging in one event. It's really pretty simple. It is only complicated if you don't want to deal with the reality of what it's saying. What it is NOT saying is that men have the right to be rogues and tyrants over women. Nor do women have the right to act like rogues and tyrants with men. This is about our duties and responsibilities to Allah and fulfilling what he commands of us. That's it.
Salaam
No God has not made men leaders tht is absolute onse and not what the text says. they owe womenn care and money spent, but they are not leaders of the women. That is such a nonsense that you would have any man leading any woman regardless. Leadership is something thagt goes with the person not with the sex, same as intelligence and same as talent for anything in particular. That is something completely clear an visible
The innjunctions in 4.34 arenot there to prohibit women anything or pput any burden on them but to put the balance in the burdens supported by the sexes. Men are free of the burden of reproduction, God balances providing for the men to give women them economical and other support. That is it. Other than that trying to get from that injunction privileges for the males againt the women is puttingg inn the text human innventions that God has ot put.
Imagining in this aya purported roles of ledership is a wet dream of some people and in fact would burden many males beyond their means because it is a fact that neither all men no all women have leadership qualities and it woud be cruelty to expect such a thing from all of them.
Salaam
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...'God has made men caretakers, leaders and managers over women ...
Peace --
285 and we wanted that favor upon the ones oppressed they of in the earth and we make them a-immatan/leaders and we make them the inheritors
434 the menfolk qawwmna/steadfast being upon the womenfolk in what favor the god some them upon/over others and in what spends they of from wealth theirs so the righteous (f/p) obedient (f/p) guardians (f/p) to the unseen in what safeguarded the god and the ones whom (f/p) thou fearing recalcitrant theirs (f/p) so admonish ye them (f/p) and leaves ye them (f/p) in the rest place wa-iribuhunna/and strikes (i.e. shuns) ye them (f/p) so if hearken you so not seek ye of over them (f/p) way of surely the god be height of immense of
Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
- signifies also he was silent; he spoke not or he lowered his eyes, looking towards the ground
4135 O you the ones believe ye of be ye of qawwmna/steadfast in/concerning the justice witnesses to god and in case upon/against yourselves or the parents dual and the nearer/relatives being ?
58 O you the ones believe ye of be ye of qawwmna/steadfast to god witnesses? in/concerning the justice ?
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"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
(Quran 4913)
