Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
-
Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
That is correct.
Salaam
-
Religion (Merriam Webster)
1
a the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic scrupulous conformity conscientiousness
4
a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faithDeen
Discipline (include law), Duty, Dues, Judgement.
It's meaning of religion is in it's meaning of discipline and duty.
I can understand that you think the quran is a book of discipline and duty.
But I do not understand Gods discipline and duty. God has no religion, people do but not God. -
God's religion means the Religion from God or sanctioned and promoted by God. Possessives work like that grammatically.
Salaam
-
peace Anwar,
434 does not say "Ba3dh bi-ba3adh" or "ba3dh 3ala ba3dh", it says "baAAdahum AAala baAAdin", thus your translation would seemingly be
the men are the qawwamoon of women
because / due to how / with what
God graced each other (of) them* over others*
AND
because / due to how / with what
they spent of their money*masculine plural
Perhaps you can give us your explanation of what is being said here, with specific reference as to whom the masculine plurals are referring to.
And answer this simple question can a man be considered qawwamoon if he does not spend on the women yes/no?
Ba3dh bi-ba3adh or ba3dh 3ala ba3dh does not mean 'some' it means 'each other.' It distinguishes one distinct group from another distinct group.
Also none of them are conditional, they are factual. I would translate faddala as 'graced' or 'blessed'
Salaam.
-
This is exctly the same construction as in several other cases i the Qur'an and in grammars it is perfectly defined and described, and it is reciprocal clause. why in this particular 4.34 SOME translators mke a mess of it, I do not know, but there is no ambiguity in it. It is the very same clause which appears repeatedly in the Qur'an and always translated as reciprocal.
Salaam
-
421
The logic of
Al-ba'dh ilaa/bi/3alaa ba3din is always one group doing to another, where both groups belong to each other. The believing men and women are one community and we all have our roles to play. God is distinguishing them here. 'God has made men caretakers, leaders and managers over women in how he has grace one (part of the group) over the other (part of the group) and in how men spend/invest'
Here, two parts of one group are distinguished. Ba'dh can also be used for multiple groups engaging in one event. It's really pretty simple. It is only complicated if you don't want to deal with the reality of what it's saying. What it is NOT saying is that men have the right to be rogues and tyrants over women. Nor do women have the right to act like rogues and tyrants with men. This is about our duties and responsibilities to Allah and fulfilling what he commands of us. That's it.
Salaam
-
Wakas,
There is no difference grammatically. I should have been more specific. It is either al-ba'dh bi/3laa/ilaa/fee-ba3dh or ba3duhum/kum/hunn/hu/haa bi/3alaa/ilaa/fee-ba3dh.
There is no way around the fact of this matter Wakas. As much as our Libertine and Liberal Greco-Roman palates may not like it. Allah has a plan for us in this life so that we can obtain the glory of the next. That's it.
Salaam
-
peace Anwar,
Perhaps I'm not being clear enough, so I will clarify. For the words in coloured bold below, whom are they referring to
God graced each other (of) them* over others*
*masculine plural- You have 3 options them
A) men
B) women
C) men+women- You have 3 options others
A) men
B) women
C) men+womenMy question is real simple, and needs no more than a 4 letter response, e.g. 1a 2a
Thanks. -
421
The logic of
Al-ba'dh ilaa/bi/3alaa ba3din is always one group doing to another, where both groups belong to each other. The believing men and women are one community and we all have our roles to play. God is distinguishing them here. 'God has made men caretakers, leaders and managers over women in how he has grace one (part of the group) over the other (part of the group) and in how men spend/invest'
Here, two parts of one group are distinguished. Ba'dh can also be used for multiple groups engaging in one event. It's really pretty simple. It is only complicated if you don't want to deal with the reality of what it's saying. What it is NOT saying is that men have the right to be rogues and tyrants over women. Nor do women have the right to act like rogues and tyrants with men. This is about our duties and responsibilities to Allah and fulfilling what he commands of us. That's it.
Salaam
No God has not made men leaders tht is absolute onse and not what the text says. they owe womenn care and money spent, but they are not leaders of the women. That is such a nonsense that you would have any man leading any woman regardless. Leadership is something thagt goes with the person not with the sex, same as intelligence and same as talent for anything in particular. That is something completely clear an visible
The innjunctions in 4.34 arenot there to prohibit women anything or pput any burden on them but to put the balance in the burdens supported by the sexes. Men are free of the burden of reproduction, God balances providing for the men to give women them economical and other support. That is it. Other than that trying to get from that injunction privileges for the males againt the women is puttingg inn the text human innventions that God has ot put.
Imagining in this aya purported roles of ledership is a wet dream of some people and in fact would burden many males beyond their means because it is a fact that neither all men no all women have leadership qualities and it woud be cruelty to expect such a thing from all of them.
Salaam
-
...'God has made men caretakers, leaders and managers over women ...
Peace --
285 and we wanted that favor upon the ones oppressed they of in the earth and we make them a-immatan/leaders and we make them the inheritors
434 the menfolk qawwmna/steadfast being upon the womenfolk in what favor the god some them upon/over others and in what spends they of from wealth theirs so the righteous (f/p) obedient (f/p) guardians (f/p) to the unseen in what safeguarded the god and the ones whom (f/p) thou fearing recalcitrant theirs (f/p) so admonish ye them (f/p) and leaves ye them (f/p) in the rest place wa-iribuhunna/and strikes (i.e. shuns) ye them (f/p) so if hearken you so not seek ye of over them (f/p) way of surely the god be height of immense of
Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
- signifies also he was silent; he spoke not or he lowered his eyes, looking towards the ground
4135 O you the ones believe ye of be ye of qawwmna/steadfast in/concerning the justice witnesses to god and in case upon/against yourselves or the parents dual and the nearer/relatives being ?
58 O you the ones believe ye of be ye of qawwmna/steadfast to god witnesses? in/concerning the justice ?
-
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
(Quran 4913) -
God's religion means the Religion from God or sanctioned and promoted by God. Possessives work like that grammatically.
Salaam
Hi,
Thank you, I still do not understand but if you say it's promoted by God then for sure it has to be the best religion there is and it must be also available for everyone.
So what exactly is this religion you are talking about?Salaam,
Bender -
Devil's Advocatism and Feminism have destroy the Ummah of the Qur'an.
-
Bender,
Yes...open for those who even reject it and its principles. Open for those who scoff at its morals and its messages and seek to undermine them...yes that's God's religion which is open for everyone.
To get back to reality, libertine, free religion is not religion at all. Deen is the opposite of freedom, liberalism and libertinism. And those who are of a deen are of an ummah and those who are of this ummah must be people of tawallee, which is EXCLUSIVE association and preference. This religion is for those who follow it.
Think about that.
Salaam
-
I really don't have any words for anyone here anymore except for Wakas.
Wakas,
You disappoint me. I know you can do better than this.
Salaam.
-
Bender,
Yes...open for those who even reject it and its principles. Open for those who scoff at its morals and its messages and seek to undermine them...yes that's God's religion which is open for everyone.
To get back to reality, libertine, free religion is not religion at all. Deen is the opposite of freedom, liberalism and libertinism. And those who are of a deen are of an ummah and those who are of this ummah must be people of tawallee, which is EXCLUSIVE association and preference. This religion is for those who follow it.
Think about that.
Salaam
Hi,
Ok, can you give some examples of this religion.
Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. -
Hi,
Ok, can you give some examples of this religion.
Maybe we are misunderstanding each other.It is the religion of the rich and healthy. If you have disability as a man then you are out of the league because you can no more maintain your woman like the rich and healthy imagine. Under such circumstances, I feel the lady can look for another manager
-
peace Anwar,
Since you did not supply the info I requested I cannot assess whether your claims have any merit, thus they will remain just that - claims - until proven otherwise.
Perhaps I'm not being clear enough, so I will clarify. For the words in coloured bold below, whom are they referring to
God graced each other (of) them* over others*
*masculine plural- You have 3 options them
A) men
B) women
C) men+women- You have 3 options others
A) men
B) women
C) men+womenMy question is real simple, and needs no more than a 4 letter response, e.g. 1a 2a
Thanks.To readers, in case you are wondering why I asked the above. It is because the masculine plural can only refer to males or males+females, thus the Arabic itself seems to expose anyone who thinks all men are bestowed more than women from 434. This is discussed more at www.Quran434.com
Thus in my experience, they either fail to answer or claim the masculine plural here refers to all females. Readers can decide for themselves.
-
You should know that kum and hum are plural mixed gender and plural masculine. You have first to see the antecedents to say that whether it is maculine or mixed.
-
The ba3Du ... ba3D is ALWAYS a reciprocal clause. You cannot make it anything else. If you want to say "some" you cannot use that idiom you have to use a different forumla.
-
Since the antecedents we have are what they are, that you state that the kum is arbitrary, brcaquse kum represents the mixed plural as well as the masculine plural. And pronouns re not the pproperty of any particular sex, they are tools of language.
In this clause, you do not make a term feminine because it includes both masculine and femnine, and what you use is the generic formula for when mixed components are incuded. The hum and the kum is not merely for masculine plural but for plurals that include both genders.
As it happens it is excactly the same inn Spannish fo recirocal clauses of some done to eacha other, unless both terms of the recipprocity are clerly known to be feminine, the mixed genter should be used all over, and any sentence with such construction should be understood a comrising boths gender unless the two antecedent were clearly known as non mixed masculine. There is not such a construction to say "some" in Arabic. Completely out of the question.
Salaam
-
-
Wakas,
If you pretend to make Classical Arabic grammar conform to English Grammar than you are more mistaken than I thought. Grammar is not 11 from one language to another. What I can say is that the ba3duhum refers to the men and the ba3din refers to the women. From what I have seen in general the first al-ba3dh or ba3dh + possessive pronoun refers to the first group and the second indefinite ba3dh refers to the second group. Although, I am not sure how hard and fast this is, this has been my observation.
And your aggressive tone
"thus they will remain just that - claims - until proven otherwise."
is not appreciated. I can take but it is clear to me now that your agenda and comments clearly do not come out of a spirit of brotherhood. That is unfortunate. I hope your Crusade to make Islam acceptable to Modern Greco-Roman Western tastes, and your White-knighting proves worthwhile.http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=White+Knight
2nd definition.
Salaam
