Was Moses in Egypt?????
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Salam,
I must say I do not agree with assertions in this topic.
Firstly, the location of the stories of Moses and Joseph are definitely Egypt.
The Quran uses both the proper noun mis'ra and the indefinite noun mis'ran (261) (a city). This distinction suggests that the four uses of the proper noun mis'ra refer to a definite place. Apart from Lexicons and the Bible telling us it is Egypt, we also have internal and historical evidence to suggest the place is in fact Egypt. Fir'awn in 4351 talks about rivers (plural form, i.e. 3 or more) flowing underneath him, which sounds like the Nile Delta. Historically, the word "m-s-r" or similar have been used in reference to Egypt both within Egypt and by foreigners. There are hieroglyphs which refer to Egypt as "m-s-r" (the pyramid grapheme , the hoe grapheme , and the sun rays grapheme ). There are also correspondences between Egyptian and foreign rulers where Egypt is referred to as "m-s-r" or similar (such as the 14th Century BC 'Armana letters'.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarna_lettersWith regards to the name fir'awn, there is no evidence that it is NOT the title "Pharaoh". Although a good argument has been put forth, that there is no THE or A before the title, and therefore it is a proper noun, this is not necessarily the case. Firstly, unlike the word malik, the word fir'awn is a specific title for Egyptian sovereigns after the New Kingdom, and cannot be used to describe other sovereigns. I looked in the Quran for other uses of a specific title and found "Son of Mary" as a reference to Jesus. Before someone argues that it is used alongside with Isa or al-Masih, the title is used independently twice (2350 & 4357), both times without THE or A. This is internal evidence within the Quran that specific titles do not need THE or A. Also, if you look at the use of the title Pharaoh in the Bible, the title is not used ONCE with THE or A, just like the Quran . The Bible uses the same title (Pharaoh) for the sovereigns in Abraham's time, Joseph's time and Moses' time, thus it wasn't a proper name but in fact a title. The Quran however does not mention an Egyptian sovereign with regards to Abraham, and uses "malik" (king) with regards to Joseph. If the Quran also used the title fir'awn for the Egyptian sovereign during Joseph's time, there would have been no doubt that it is in fact a title. However, this would have been historically incorrect, since the title "Pharaoh" was not used until the New Kingdom, and before this sovereigns of Egypt were referred to as kings.
"Pharaoh" in T. Wilkinson, The Thames & Hudson Dictionary Of Ancient Egypt, 2005, Thames & Hudson London, p. 186.With regards with the argument about "Lord of the Stakes", firstly, the pyramids were built long before every estimate regarding the timeline of the Pharaoh of Moses (usually around 1400 or 1200 BCE). Also the Egyptians were also famous for columns/pillars in their architecture (example temple complex of Karnak at Thebes). Here is a picture of the famous twin obelisks that are replicated throughout the world
http//hawkebackpacking.com/images/pictures/africa/egypt_2009/luxor_karnak/egypt_2009_luxor_karnak_14.jpgPeace
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This is as close to we can get to some "facts" on the matter
The Jews have long considered the place of Moses in the Bible to be Egypt, which they called Mizr and the Qur'an calls Misr.
The Qur'an uses the term Misr, and does not seem to explicitly correct any misinterpretation the Jews and Christians may have had at that time considering the place to be Egypt, which was stilled called Misr in that day apparently, while other places were called other things.
It really doesn't matter much where Moses was at all probably, just that we take the important lessons from the stories, in that we it is also not important whether it happened this way or that way or at all, since the information is created by God, and all that exists now are the stories where one can maybe learn things, whereas all those events themselves are not in our experience, only the simulations in our imaginations when reading the stories perhaps.
Using this sort of careful analysis, we can maybe re-focus on taking what is of real value from the scriptures, rather than warring about what may be ultimately arbitrary and even is "changeable" by God.
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https//ashraf62.wordpress.com/ancient-egypt-knew-no-pharaohs/
If you think that history is all about the past ? you?d better think again.If you think the stories the Hebrew Bible had told about ancient Egypt were true ? you?d better think once again.And if you believe that ancient Egypt was ruled by pharaohs ? then you?d better read the next lines...
Dr. Ashraf Ezzat
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In your opinion yes, hicham9. Although I do agree that he was not in the Egypt that we know.
However, he was much further away from this part of the world. Far far away towards the west.
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Brother MOF, was he in Sweden?
Or may be he was leading the Vikings?
Where is the "far far away towards the west" place?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
No, good logic, he was not in Sweden.
I suppose you have to practice on your geographic skill. Sweden is more north than west if you speak about that.
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Peace MOF.
Moses was with Pharaoh.
Pharaoh and Egypt (Masr) go together like a hand and a glove.Why do I need geography or any kind of skill to know that?
Sometimes I have no idea why we do not throw everything we know about anything and start again.
This sectarians have made up the maps, the history and where Moses was?
However I will still look at your findings to see what is new about where Moses was.
I take it you will tell me where this "far far away to the west place " is?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I take it you will tell me where this "far far away to the west place " is?
It is "over jordan". Moses people traveled for many many years. And they traveled through the Sahara desert.
Why do I need geography or any kind of skill to know that?
I was being sarcastic in return to your not so serious input as you mentioned Sweden and you obviously know that Sweden is towards the north rather than west.
The traditional Egypt place is a good guess, but it is not far away enough and the scope is way larger.
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In the epic, he's said to embody the wild/natural world, being a "wild man" (allegedly raised by animals) who would later come closer to civilization and somehow become "best friends" with the (tyrant) cultured, urban-bred king ! I'd say an authoritative high priest-like figure who claimed supernatural powers (& whatnot).
The priests of ancient Mesopotamia were considered 1st class, and thus possessed a large amount of authority, i was told.
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Thank you for showing interest, brother HP
What civilization authored these depictions?
Sumerians (see Epic of Gilgamesh)
The tyrannical king of Uruk, Gilgamesh, seems to fit well the persona/image of Phern - the cruel self-proclaimed "god" of mr as depicted in the Qurn - way better than the alleged mummy of Ramesses II (mainstream op), i daresay ?Though, more scrutiny needs be done here before a final/decisive conclusion can be reached just yet. For, if Gilgamesh is indeed "Pharaoh," then who's Ms (in context) ?
I want to draw a graphic novel starring the real Mesopotamian Ms (based on the real story/chronology) so badly _
SLM