The proof of 3 Salat in Quran
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We may differ in opinion but Im not saying you are wrong or Im right.
Because Arabic is not my language, I rely on translation. After reading your post, another enlightenedment came but it does not change my position only it widens my understanding.
Sahih International17-78
Establish prayer at the decline of the sun until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.
Sahih International17-79
And from the night, pray with it as additional (nfilatan) for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station.My understanding, the tahajjud/night prayer is additional.
Wusta is a reference to a solat that occurs in the period within (1) sunrise and (2) sunset. Due to short period, one needs discipline to abide by it.There are other solat that people do (sectarians, people of the book other than quran but not obligatory as per Quran's instruction).
I summarise
- Obligatory solat specifically mentioned in the Quran Fajar and Isyak the timing is wusta between sunrise and sunset.
- Additional solat to raise oneself higher - tahajjud - recommended practice but not obligatory.
- Other solat (could be practised by people of the book other than quran) not obligatory.
Other meaning of solat apart from praying - not discuss here.
Peace.
Selam,
We have 3 names, and in Quran there are 3 salat described, surah 11>114 and surah 17>78, both tell us about 2 prayers, the question is where is the third prayer? I believe the third prayer is described in surah 1779. That is the only logical thing i can come up. The question is can we call it tahajjud prayer, the translation is
(17793)
fatahajjad
arise from sleep for prayerAlso the decline of the sun can be the setting of the sun
About Maghrib you say it is a direction, how did you come to this conclusion? I have seen explanations from arabs who claim it means the setting of the sun.Peace
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Selam brother, i have to read surah jumaa and surah al asr again and think about this what you say, it is still not clear to me. About Maghrib you say it is a direction, how did you come to this conclusion? I have seen explanations from arabs who claim it means the setting of the sun. Peace
Salam brother
Maghreb, meaning ?West? (a reference to the Arabic-speaking countries in the west of North Africa). Maghreb is an Arabic term literally meaning ?place of setting (of the sun)?, and hence ?West.? It derives from the root ghuroob, meaning ?to set? or ?to be hidden?
fatahajjad - arise from sleep for prayer
I can see your point. But I cannot agree at this time given that Quran states elsewhere there are 2x solat being 2 ends of the day (fajr and isha) with specific times requiring discipline to comply (ie consistent with wusta requirements) and as referred in surah jumaat where one leaves eveything to perform the solat (629).My current understanding is
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it is obligatory for me to comply with 2x daily solat at the prescribed times with only excuse of not complying being unconscious or dead.
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And if I want something extra (that additional point) from Allah I will perform the night prayer with no specific time constraints.
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Referring to 7320, there is an obligation to perform nightly which is reading the Quran. Given that solat can be translated to commitment/obligation then you are right, tahajjud is an obligation to perform nightly by reading the Quran.
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If I were to join point 2 and 3, my understanding of the word 'additional' is revised as additional obligation to read the Quran nightly instead of 'optional solat'.
In summary, item 1 is constraint by time, item 3 is not constraint by time, wusta can apply to both (due to characteristics of 1 and 3) and both 1 and 3 are commitments to Allah.
Although points 1 and 3 are not new to me, but point 4 was a 'just now' event, maybe i should fast and wait.
Anyway, the above is my understanding only. Peace.
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Salam brother,
Maghreb, meaning ?West? (a reference to the Arabic-speaking countries in the west of North Africa). Maghreb is an Arabic term literally meaning ?place of setting (of the sun)?, and hence ?West.? It derives from the root ghuroob, meaning ?to set? or ?to be hidden?
fatahajjad - arise from sleep for prayer
I can see your point. But I cannot agree at this time given that Quran states elsewhere there are 2x solat being 2 ends of the day (fajr and isha) with specific times requiring discipline to comply (ie consistent with wusta requirements) and as referred in surah jumaat where one leaves eveything to perform the solat (629).My current understanding is
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it is obligatory for me to comply with 2x daily solat at the prescribed times with only excuse of not complying being unconscious or dead.
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And if I want something extra (that additional point) from Allah I will perform the night prayer with no specific time constraints.
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Referring to 7320, there is an obligation to perform nightly which is reading the Quran. Given that solat can be translated to commitment/obligation then you are right, tahajjud is an obligation to perform nightly by reading the Quran.
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If I were to join point 2 and 3, my understanding of the word 'additional' is revised as additional obligation to read the Quran nightly instead of 'optional solat'.
In summary, item 1 is constraint by time, item 3 is not constraint by time, wusta can apply to both (due to characteristics of 1 and 3) and both 1 and 3 are commitments to Allah.
Although points 1 and 3 are not new to me, but point 4 was a 'just now' event, maybe i should fast and wait.
Anyway, the above is my understanding only. Peace.
Selam brother,
First i want to say that i am also researching and i am seeking the truth, i can make mistakes and i am not sure about many things that is why i investigate. I believe i will find the truth and other Muslim will also help to find the truth. That is the reason i became member on this forum.
Thank you for the explanation of maghrib, I think you are right. So li duluk can only mean the setting of the sun.
I am trying to understand many things in Quran, like the mention of sabbath. Jumah is translated as friday, but i have seen a translation for friday and it was not jumah it was El gom3a on this page https//www.rocketlanguages.com/arabic/learn/days-of-the-week-in-arabic/
And when we see the translation in Quran it is day of gathering, it does not say friday
(3253) jamanhum We will gather them
(315714) yajmana they accumulate
(3173 jama gathered
(42343) tajma you gather together
(4876) layajmaannakum surely He will gather you
(51092) yajmau will (be) gathered
(61213) layajmaannakum Surely He will assemble you
(63522) lajamaahum surely He (would) have gathered them
(105810) yajmana they accumulate
(189910) fajamanhum then We (will) gather them
(20603) fajamaa and put together
(26381) fajumia So were assembled
(34262) yajmau Will gather
(421531) yajmau will assemble
(433225) yajmana they accumulate
(45267) yajmaukum He will gather you
(6492) yajmaukum He will assemble you
(70181) wajamaa And collected
(7534) najmaa We will assemble
(7591) wajumia And are joined
(77384) jamankum We have gathered you
(10422) jamaa collects
Verb (form IV) - to resolve, to agree, to put together
(107120) fa-ajmi So you all resolve
(12154) wa-ajma and agreed
(1210211) ajma they put together
(20641) fa-ajmi So put together
Verb (form VIII) - to gather
(17883) ij'tamaati gathered
(227317) ij'tama they gathered together
Noun
(216113) ajmana all together
(3879) ajmana all together
(6149 ajmana all
(71812) ajmana all
(7124 ajmana all
(1111915) ajmana all together
(129312) ajmana all together
(15304) ajmana together
(153910) ajmana all
(15434) ajmana all
(15596) ajmana all
(15923) ajmana all
(16910) ajmana all
(217712) ajmana all
(264921) ajmana all
(26655) ajmana all
(26953) ajmana all together
(261703) ajmana all
(27519) ajmana all
(321316) ajmana together
(371344) ajmana all
(38734) ajmana together
(38824) ajmana all
(38857) ajmana all
(43556) ajmana all
(44405) ajmana all
Noun
(31557) l-jamni the two hosts
(31665) l-jamni the two hosts
(74811) jamukum your gathering
(8412 l-jamni the two forces
(189911) jaman all together
(26613) l-jamni the two hosts
(287823) jaman (in) accumulation
(42713) l-jami (of) Assembly
(422913) jamihim their gathering
(54452) l-jamu (their) assembly
(6494) l-jami (of) the Assembly
(75173) jamahu (is) its collection
(10053) jaman collectively
Proper noun
(6299) l-jumuati (of) Friday
Noun
(229 jaman all
(2384) jaman all (of you)
(214813) jaman together
(216527) jaman all
(31034) jaman all together
(47110) jaman all together
(413914) jaman all
(414033) jaman all together
(41721 jaman all together
(5172 jaman all
(53221) jaman all
(53227) jaman all
(53610) jaman all
(54846) jaman all
(510515) jaman all
(6223) jaman all
(61283) jaman all
(73823) jaman all
(7158 jaman all
(83712) jaman all together
(8639) jaman all
(1043) jaman
(10283) jaman all together
(10657) jaman all
(10999) jaman together
(11554) jaman all together
(128314) jaman all
(131815) jaman all
(13311 jaman all
(133129) jaman all of the mankind
(1342 jaman all
(1489) jaman all
(14213) jaman all together
(171039) jaman all
(201234) jaman all
(243174) jaman altogether
(246155) jaman together
(26562) lajamun (are) surely a multitude
(34403) jaman all
(35107) jaman all
(36324) jamun together
(3653 jamun all
(39444) jaman all
(3947 jaman all
(395316) jaman all
(39677) jaman entirely
(45139) jaman all
(54444) jamun (are) an assembly
(5864) jaman all
(58184) jaman all
(59143) jaman all
(591416) jaman (are) united
(70144) jaman all
Noun
(18609) majmaa the junction
(18613) majmaa the junction
Active participle
(393) jmiu will gather & -
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Why can it not not be leave everything what you do and go pray Isha? Like i understand the Jews have a prayer like Isha on Friday and then they have a day of rest on Saturday. If the jumah prayer is on a friday and at noon, and if it means the wusta prayer, why is there not any mention about wusta in this verse 629. If there are 2 prayers mentioned, then the prayer at dawn you do not have any work, but at night you might have work, some people work also at night.
It can also be that the jumah prayer is at noon on a friday, but i can not read anything about friday or noon.
I have some questions about the sabbath, because in Quran we do not read that this commandment from Allah has changed and also the zakat and salat has not changed, only the direction of prayer is changed. Does this mean that we should take Saturday as a free day?
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Salam brother
I clarify myself. I don't believe in Jummat prayers - it does not exist.
I believe Jumaat signifies an event where people gather, it could mean an everyday event like going to work, shopping, morning or evening market, sports event, parties etc. Thus during those event when the time for the 2 solat comes - either isya or fajr only, then those who believe will abandon everything for awhile to perform salat due to the short time available.
As for the 3rd solat/tahajjud/commitment given its time period is lengthy, there is no requirement to leave anything, you can choose the appropriate time.
As for your references to other faith's prayers, aside from the 2 solat at fajr and isya and the 3rd during the night, i don't find them in the Quran.
I also believe due to the short period for the 2 prayers, it is meant to communicate personal issues and short verses (like al fatehah, ikhlas, falaq, etc) of the Quran like specific request or praises to Allah in nature, not those verses telling stories or rules.
Reading and studying the quran is a commitment at night (3rd solat) and the period at dawn (as it is witnessed at dawn), and of course we can add personal requests (In the Q, there's a specific doa for the 3rd solat).
Whether you sit, stand or make any movements, I personally understand that it is up to us, whatever that feels good when one communicates with Allah. But if I am in a mosque, then I will not act weird (when in rome do like the roman's do) but instead perform prayers like everybody else (although I may be saying/reciting different things in my prayers not following the crowd).
I avoid being made to lead prayers, I don't believe in imams leading prayers. The verse stating that the rasul led prayers - I take it as praying alongside them - not specifically leading them into a synchronize prayer like currently practised - because prayers are individualistic in nature, we meet Allah as individual and we are also judged as individual - the current practice of imam led prayers place a heavy burden on the imam and the followers given mistakes by participants everyone gets a share, clearly not consistent with Q. The worse part is, we don't even know whether the imam is going to heaven or hell but we have surrendered our rights and follow blindly.
Peace.
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Salam brother
I clarify myself. I don't believe in Jummat prayers - it does not exist.
I believe Jumaat signifies an event where people gather, it could mean an everyday event like going to work, shopping, morning or evening market, sports event, parties etc. Thus during those event when the time for the 2 solat comes - either isya or fajr only, then those who believe will abandon everything for awhile to perform salat due to the short time available.
As for the 3rd solat/tahajjud/commitment given its time period is lengthy, there is no requirement to leave anything, you can choose the appropriate time.
As for your references to other faith's prayers, aside from the 2 solat at fajr and isya and the 3rd during the night, i don't find them in the Quran.
I also believe due to the short period for the 2 prayers, it is meant to communicate personal issues and short verses (like al fatehah, ikhlas, falaq, etc) of the Quran like specific request or praises to Allah in nature, not those verses telling stories or rules.
Reading and studying the quran is a commitment at night (3rd solat) and the period at dawn (as it is witnessed at dawn), and of course we can add personal requests (In the Q, there's a specific doa for the 3rd solat).
Whether you sit, stand or make any movements, I personally understand that it is up to us, whatever that feels good when one communicates with Allah. But if I am in a mosque, then I will not act weird (when in rome do like the roman's do) but instead perform prayers like everybody else (although I may be saying/reciting different things in my prayers not following the crowd).
I avoid being made to lead prayers, I don't believe in imams leading prayers. The verse stating that the rasul led prayers - I take it as praying alongside them - not specifically leading them into a synchronize prayer like currently practised - because prayers are individualistic in nature, we meet Allah as individual and we are also judged as individual - the current practice of imam led prayers place a heavy burden on the imam and the followers given mistakes by participants everyone gets a share, clearly not consistent with Q. The worse part is, we don't even know whether the imam is going to heaven or hell but we have surrendered our rights and follow blindly.
Peace.
Selam brother,
There is an ayat who says do not go to these masjids, i understand that Allah is describing the mosques of these days. In MUhameds time there can not have been a wrong mosque. That is why i believe i do not have to go to a mosque. Also jumah, means gathering, so i think that Muslims do have a day of gathering, when they pray together and in Quran you can find ayet to say for these gatherings, they begin with Kulli. There is mention about Saturday in Quran, so maybe the day of gathering is Saturday, what do you think about this? No, we do not know if the imam will go to heaven or hell, but i know that Muhamed is for sure going to Heaven and that he did lead the prayer. I would trust Muhamed and i would pray like he does, but i do not think that imams pray like Muhamed did, so i will not go to mosque. Maybe Allah will give me one day the opportunity to make a lot of money, so i can build a mosque just for us, the Quran only Muslims, the real Muslims.
Which dua is for the third salat? I really would like to know.
Sorry for the late reply
Peace
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peace TGO, hanslan,
The translation/understanding you both refer to for 1779 is inaccurate, please see point 16 here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.htmlSelam Wakas,
you say Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed.
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy.So remain awake or wake up and pray, this the wusta prayer
Peace
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Salam TGO, the dua is ayat 1780.
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=80
Peace.
Selam hanslan,
also 17>81 and 17>108 and 17>111
Peace
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Maghreb, meaning ?West? (a reference to the Arabic-speaking countries in the west of North Africa). Maghreb is an Arabic term literally meaning ?place of setting (of the sun)?, and hence ?West.? It derives from the root ghuroob, meaning ?to set? or ?to be hidden?
018086
"Until when he reached the setting of the sun (Arabic Maghriba-l-shams)"Do you mean this means, till he reached the west?
Asad till, when he came to the setting of the sun, 84 it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea; 85 and nearby he found a people . We said "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause to suffer or treat them with kindness!" 86
Malik till he reached the end of the land and the start of an ocean, where the Sun was setting, he noted that it was setting in a mucky spring and found by it a people. We said "O Zul-Qarnain! You have the option to either punish them or to show them kindness".
Pickthall Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout We said O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
Yusuf Ali Until when he reached the setting of the sun He found it set in a spring of murky water near it he found a People We said "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness." 2430 2431
Transliteration Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hamiatin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba waimma an tattakhitha feehim husnanon this site we can read http//quransmessage.com/articles/fasting%20till%20night%20FM3.htm
The Quran makes use of the word 'layl' as a word well known to the Arabs to describe a particular part (s) of the complete day. A gradual movement into the night is certainly implied by the Quran which we will note later in the article. However, it is to be noted that at no place in the Quran is 'layl' (night) synonymous with sunset. In fact, descriptions of sunset are clearly expressed by the Quran in Arabic.
018086
"Until when he reached the setting of the sun (Arabic Maghriba-l-shams)"The word 'maghriba' comes from its root word 'Ghurub' (G-R-B) which inherently means to retire, to depart, to be hidden from view or to be absent. Used along with 'shams' (sun) it refers to sunset, or the west which is clearly the setting place of the sun.
Verse 2187 does not instruct believers to fast until the 'ghurub' of the 'shams' (setting of the sun). Rather, it informs believers to fast till 'layl' (night).
In another verse, we note the following expression
017078 (part)
?Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline (Arabic Duluk-e-Shams) till the darkness of the night..."Opinions on this expression are divided, but it is important to note the possible relationship with sunset.
Dhuluk = Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun).
Source Edward Lanes Lexicon
Source Edward Lanes Lexicon
In another verse of the Quran we note the expression 'shafaq' as a twilight glow in the evening after sunset. It is interesting to note that 'layl' (night) is somewhat separated from 'shafaq' but nevertheless, is a process which gradually occurs.
08416-17
"But nay! I swear by the sunset redness / twilight glow (Arabic bil-shafaq), And the night (Arabic al-layl) and that which it drives on"The Quran has also clearly cited the term 'ghurub' to denote sunset (20130 and 5039) in other verses of the Quran.
020130
"...before the rising of the sun, and before its setting (Arabic ghurubiha)"050039
...before the rising of the sun and before the setting (Arabic ghurubiha)"As the term 'ghurub' is well known to the Quran, it could have used such a term clearly to denote the ending of the fasting period without any ambiguity. However, it simply did not. Instead, it used the word 'layl' (night) to describe the period of the fast's end.
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peace TGO,
layl is real simple to understand
"sun/shams" is a feminine noun. "brightness/duha" is a masculine noun. Thus
By the sun and its brightness.
And the moon that follows it.
And the "nahar" (day) that reveals it.
And the "layl" (night) that covers it. -
peace TGO,
layl is real simple to understand
"sun/shams" is a feminine noun. "brightness/duha" is a masculine noun. Thus
By the sun and its brightness.
And the moon that follows it.
And the "nahar" (day) that reveals it.
And the "layl" (night) that covers it.Selam Wakas,
i understand that night is layl, what i do not understand is maghrib and it could mean west
i also understand that we should fast till darkness and not till sunset
Peace
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Which Quran verse says that?
surah 2187
Pickthall It is made lawful for you to go unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. Allah is aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques. These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus Allah expoundeth His revelations to mankind that they may ward off (evil).
Asad IT IS lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the fast they are as a garment for you, and you are as a garment for them. God is aware that you would have deprived yourselves of this right, 159 and so He has turned unto you in His mercy and removed this hardship from you. Now, then, you may lie with them skin to skin, and avail yourselves of that which God has ordained for you, 160 and eat and drink until you can discern the white streak of dawn against the blackness of night, 161 and then resume fasting until nightfall; but do not lie with them skin to skin when you are about to abide in meditation in houses of worship. 162 These are the bounds set by God do not, then, offend against them - it is thus that God makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might remain conscious of Him.
Malik It is made lawful for you to approach your wives during the night of the fast; they are an apparel for you and you for them. Allah knows that you were committing dishonesty to your souls. So He has relented towards you and pardoned you. Now, you may approach your wives and seek what Allah has written for you. Eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread of night, then complete your fast till nightfall. Do not approach your wives during I'htikaf (retreat in the mosques in last ten days of Ramadhan). These are the limits set by Allah do not ever violate them. Thus Allah makes His revelations clear to mankind so that they may guard themselves against evil.
Yusuf Ali Permitted to you on the night of the fasts is the approach to your wives. They are your garments. And ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them and seek what Allah hath ordained for you and eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint. 195 196 197 198 199 200
Transliteration Ohilla lakum laylata alssiyami alrrafathu ila nisaikum hunna libasun lakum waantum libasun lahunna AAalima Allahu annakum kuntum takhtanoona anfusakum fataba AAalaykum waAAafa AAankum faalana bashiroohunna waibtaghoo ma kataba Allahu lakum wakuloo waishraboo hatta yatabayyana lakumu alkhaytu alabyadu mina alkhayti alaswadi mina alfajri thumma atimmoo alssiyama ila allayli wala tubashiroohunna waantum AAakifoona fee almasajidi tilka hudoodu Allahi fala taqrabooha kathalika yubayyinu Allahu ayatihi lilnnasi laAAallahum yattaqoona -
Which Arabic word are you referring to in 2187?
brother you are a arab speaking Muslim, you should know better than me which word, i believe it is ila allayli
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peace TGO,
I speak very little Arabic, but in any case, according to youlayl = darkness
1778 Uphold the salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the layl/darkness...
3637 A sign for them is the layl/darkness, We remove the daytime from it/darkness, whereupon they are those in darkness.
Weird.
In my view you're clearly wrong.
Each to their own.
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peace TGO,
I speak very little Arabic, but in any case, according to youlayl = darkness
1778 Uphold the salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the layl/darkness...
3637 A sign for them is the layl/darkness, We remove the daytime from it/darkness, whereupon they are those in darkness.
Weird.
In my view you're clearly wrong.
Each to their own.
eaxactly.. yeah
God bless you brother wakas,,
and we always find your reasoning very logical and TRUE
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peace TGO,
In my view you're clearly wrong.
Selam Wakas, i know that nahar is day and layl is night and i posted this, so i am not wrong,you misunderstood
Selam Wakas,
i understand that night is layl, what i do not understand is maghrib and it could mean west
i also understand that we should fast till darkness and not till sunset
Peace
But i do have a question about isha prayer, if isha is night prayer, is this is referring to a prayer deep in the night or after sunset?
Peace
