The proof of 3 Salat in Quran

[hanslan]

Salam brother

I clarify myself. I don't believe in Jummat prayers - it does not exist.

I believe Jumaat signifies an event where people gather, it could mean an everyday event like going to work, shopping, morning or evening market, sports event, parties etc. Thus during those event when the time for the 2 solat comes - either isya or fajr only, then those who believe will abandon everything for awhile to perform salat due to the short time available.

As for the 3rd solat/tahajjud/commitment given its time period is lengthy, there is no requirement to leave anything, you can choose the appropriate time.

As for your references to other faith's prayers, aside from the 2 solat at fajr and isya and the 3rd during the night, i don't find them in the Quran.

I also believe due to the short period for the 2 prayers, it is meant to communicate personal issues and short verses (like al fatehah, ikhlas, falaq, etc) of the Quran like specific request or praises to Allah in nature, not those verses telling stories or rules.

Reading and studying the quran is a commitment at night (3rd solat) and the period at dawn (as it is witnessed at dawn), and of course we can add personal requests (In the Q, there's a specific doa for the 3rd solat).

Whether you sit, stand or make any movements, I personally understand that it is up to us, whatever that feels good when one communicates with Allah. But if I am in a mosque, then I will not act weird (when in rome do like the roman's do) but instead perform prayers like everybody else (although I may be saying/reciting different things in my prayers not following the crowd).

I avoid being made to lead prayers, I don't believe in imams leading prayers. The verse stating that the rasul led prayers - I take it as praying alongside them - not specifically leading them into a synchronize prayer like currently practised - because prayers are individualistic in nature, we meet Allah as individual and we are also judged as individual - the current practice of imam led prayers place a heavy burden on the imam and the followers given mistakes by participants everyone gets a share, clearly not consistent with Q. The worse part is, we don't even know whether the imam is going to heaven or hell but we have surrendered our rights and follow blindly.

Peace.

[The_Guided_One]

Salam brother

I clarify myself. I don't believe in Jummat prayers - it does not exist.

I believe Jumaat signifies an event where people gather, it could mean an everyday event like going to work, shopping, morning or evening market, sports event, parties etc. Thus during those event when the time for the 2 solat comes - either isya or fajr only, then those who believe will abandon everything for awhile to perform salat due to the short time available.

As for the 3rd solat/tahajjud/commitment given its time period is lengthy, there is no requirement to leave anything, you can choose the appropriate time.

As for your references to other faith's prayers, aside from the 2 solat at fajr and isya and the 3rd during the night, i don't find them in the Quran.

I also believe due to the short period for the 2 prayers, it is meant to communicate personal issues and short verses (like al fatehah, ikhlas, falaq, etc) of the Quran like specific request or praises to Allah in nature, not those verses telling stories or rules.

Reading and studying the quran is a commitment at night (3rd solat) and the period at dawn (as it is witnessed at dawn), and of course we can add personal requests (In the Q, there's a specific doa for the 3rd solat).

Whether you sit, stand or make any movements, I personally understand that it is up to us, whatever that feels good when one communicates with Allah. But if I am in a mosque, then I will not act weird (when in rome do like the roman's do) but instead perform prayers like everybody else (although I may be saying/reciting different things in my prayers not following the crowd).

I avoid being made to lead prayers, I don't believe in imams leading prayers. The verse stating that the rasul led prayers - I take it as praying alongside them - not specifically leading them into a synchronize prayer like currently practised - because prayers are individualistic in nature, we meet Allah as individual and we are also judged as individual - the current practice of imam led prayers place a heavy burden on the imam and the followers given mistakes by participants everyone gets a share, clearly not consistent with Q. The worse part is, we don't even know whether the imam is going to heaven or hell but we have surrendered our rights and follow blindly.

Peace.

Selam brother,

There is an ayat who says do not go to these masjids, i understand that Allah is describing the mosques of these days. In MUhameds time there can not have been a wrong mosque. That is why i believe i do not have to go to a mosque. Also jumah, means gathering, so i think that Muslims do have a day of gathering, when they pray together and in Quran you can find ayet to say for these gatherings, they begin with Kulli. There is mention about Saturday in Quran, so maybe the day of gathering is Saturday, what do you think about this? No, we do not know if the imam will go to heaven or hell, but i know that Muhamed is for sure going to Heaven and that he did lead the prayer. I would trust Muhamed and i would pray like he does, but i do not think that imams pray like Muhamed did, so i will not go to mosque. Maybe Allah will give me one day the opportunity to make a lot of money, so i can build a mosque just for us, the Quran only Muslims, the real Muslims.

Which dua is for the third salat? I really would like to know.

Sorry for the late reply

Peace

[hanslan]

Salam TGO, the dua is ayat 1780.

http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=80

Peace.

[Wakas]

peace TGO, hanslan,

The translation/understanding you both refer to for 1779 is inaccurate, please see point 16 here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

[The_Guided_One]

peace TGO, hanslan,

The translation/understanding you both refer to for 1779 is inaccurate, please see point 16 here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Selam Wakas,

you say Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed.
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy.

So remain awake or wake up and pray, this the wusta prayer

Peace

[The_Guided_One]

Salam TGO, the dua is ayat 1780.

http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=80

Peace.

Selam hanslan,

also 17>81 and 17>108 and 17>111

Peace

[The_Guided_One]

Maghreb, meaning ?West? (a reference to the Arabic-speaking countries in the west of North Africa). Maghreb is an Arabic term literally meaning ?place of setting (of the sun)?, and hence ?West.? It derives from the root ghuroob, meaning ?to set? or ?to be hidden?

018086
"Until when he reached the setting of the sun (Arabic Maghriba-l-shams)"

Do you mean this means, till he reached the west?

Asad till, when he came to the setting of the sun, 84 it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea; 85 and nearby he found a people . We said "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause to suffer or treat them with kindness!" 86
Malik till he reached the end of the land and the start of an ocean, where the Sun was setting, he noted that it was setting in a mucky spring and found by it a people. We said "O Zul-Qarnain! You have the option to either punish them or to show them kindness".
Pickthall Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout We said O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
Yusuf Ali Until when he reached the setting of the sun He found it set in a spring of murky water near it he found a People We said "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness." 2430 2431
Transliteration Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hamiatin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba waimma an tattakhitha feehim husnan

on this site we can read http//quransmessage.com/articles/fasting%20till%20night%20FM3.htm

The Quran makes use of the word 'layl' as a word well known to the Arabs to describe a particular part (s) of the complete day. A gradual movement into the night is certainly implied by the Quran which we will note later in the article. However, it is to be noted that at no place in the Quran is 'layl' (night) synonymous with sunset. In fact, descriptions of sunset are clearly expressed by the Quran in Arabic.

018086
"Until when he reached the setting of the sun (Arabic Maghriba-l-shams)"

The word 'maghriba' comes from its root word 'Ghurub' (G-R-B) which inherently means to retire, to depart, to be hidden from view or to be absent. Used along with 'shams' (sun) it refers to sunset, or the west which is clearly the setting place of the sun.

Verse 2187 does not instruct believers to fast until the 'ghurub' of the 'shams' (setting of the sun). Rather, it informs believers to fast till 'layl' (night).

In another verse, we note the following expression

017078 (part)
?Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline (Arabic Duluk-e-Shams) till the darkness of the night..."

Opinions on this expression are divided, but it is important to note the possible relationship with sunset.

Dhuluk = Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun).

Source Edward Lanes Lexicon

Source Edward Lanes Lexicon

In another verse of the Quran we note the expression 'shafaq' as a twilight glow in the evening after sunset. It is interesting to note that 'layl' (night) is somewhat separated from 'shafaq' but nevertheless, is a process which gradually occurs.

08416-17
"But nay! I swear by the sunset redness / twilight glow (Arabic bil-shafaq), And the night (Arabic al-layl) and that which it drives on"

The Quran has also clearly cited the term 'ghurub' to denote sunset (20130 and 5039) in other verses of the Quran.

020130
"...before the rising of the sun, and before its setting (Arabic ghurubiha)"

050039
...before the rising of the sun and before the setting (Arabic ghurubiha)"

As the term 'ghurub' is well known to the Quran, it could have used such a term clearly to denote the ending of the fasting period without any ambiguity. However, it simply did not. Instead, it used the word 'layl' (night) to describe the period of the fast's end.

[Wakas]

peace TGO,

layl is real simple to understand

"sun/shams" is a feminine noun. "brightness/duha" is a masculine noun. Thus

By the sun and its brightness.
And the moon that follows it.
And the "nahar" (day) that reveals it.
And the "layl" (night) that covers it.

[The_Guided_One]

peace TGO,

layl is real simple to understand

"sun/shams" is a feminine noun. "brightness/duha" is a masculine noun. Thus

By the sun and its brightness.
And the moon that follows it.
And the "nahar" (day) that reveals it.
And the "layl" (night) that covers it.

Selam Wakas,

i understand that night is layl, what i do not understand is maghrib and it could mean west

i also understand that we should fast till darkness and not till sunset

Peace

[Wakas]

i also understand that we should fast till darkness...

Which Quran verse says that?

[The_Guided_One]

Which Quran verse says that?

surah 2187

Pickthall It is made lawful for you to go unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. Allah is aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques. These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus Allah expoundeth His revelations to mankind that they may ward off (evil).
Asad IT IS lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the fast they are as a garment for you, and you are as a garment for them. God is aware that you would have deprived yourselves of this right, 159 and so He has turned unto you in His mercy and removed this hardship from you. Now, then, you may lie with them skin to skin, and avail yourselves of that which God has ordained for you, 160 and eat and drink until you can discern the white streak of dawn against the blackness of night, 161 and then resume fasting until nightfall; but do not lie with them skin to skin when you are about to abide in meditation in houses of worship. 162 These are the bounds set by God do not, then, offend against them - it is thus that God makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might remain conscious of Him.
Malik It is made lawful for you to approach your wives during the night of the fast; they are an apparel for you and you for them. Allah knows that you were committing dishonesty to your souls. So He has relented towards you and pardoned you. Now, you may approach your wives and seek what Allah has written for you. Eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread of night, then complete your fast till nightfall. Do not approach your wives during I'htikaf (retreat in the mosques in last ten days of Ramadhan). These are the limits set by Allah do not ever violate them. Thus Allah makes His revelations clear to mankind so that they may guard themselves against evil.
Yusuf Ali Permitted to you on the night of the fasts is the approach to your wives. They are your garments. And ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them and seek what Allah hath ordained for you and eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint. 195 196 197 198 199 200
Transliteration Ohilla lakum laylata alssiyami alrrafathu ila nisaikum hunna libasun lakum waantum libasun lahunna AAalima Allahu annakum kuntum takhtanoona anfusakum fataba AAalaykum waAAafa AAankum faalana bashiroohunna waibtaghoo ma kataba Allahu lakum wakuloo waishraboo hatta yatabayyana lakumu alkhaytu alabyadu mina alkhayti alaswadi mina alfajri thumma atimmoo alssiyama ila allayli wala tubashiroohunna waantum AAakifoona fee almasajidi tilka hudoodu Allahi fala taqrabooha kathalika yubayyinu Allahu ayatihi lilnnasi laAAallahum yattaqoona

[Wakas]

surah 2187

Which Arabic word are you referring to in 2187?

[The_Guided_One]

Which Arabic word are you referring to in 2187?

brother you are a arab speaking Muslim, you should know better than me which word, i believe it is ila allayli

[Wakas]

peace TGO,
I speak very little Arabic, but in any case, according to you

layl = darkness

1778 Uphold the salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the layl/darkness...

3637 A sign for them is the layl/darkness, We remove the daytime from it/darkness, whereupon they are those in darkness.

Weird.

In my view you're clearly wrong.

Each to their own.

[imrankhawaja]

peace TGO,
I speak very little Arabic, but in any case, according to you

layl = darkness

1778 Uphold the salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the layl/darkness...

3637 A sign for them is the layl/darkness, We remove the daytime from it/darkness, whereupon they are those in darkness.

Weird.

In my view you're clearly wrong.

Each to their own.

eaxactly.. yeah

God bless you brother wakas,,

and we always find your reasoning very logical and TRUE

[The_Guided_One]

peace TGO,

In my view you're clearly wrong.

Selam Wakas, i know that nahar is day and layl is night and i posted this, so i am not wrong,you misunderstood

Selam Wakas,

i understand that night is layl, what i do not understand is maghrib and it could mean west

i also understand that we should fast till darkness and not till sunset

Peace

But i do have a question about isha prayer, if isha is night prayer, is this is referring to a prayer deep in the night or after sunset?

Peace

[Wakas]

But i do have a question about isha prayer, if isha is night prayer, is this is referring to a prayer deep in the night or after sunset?

From my research "salat* al 3sha" refers to after sunset to darkness of the night (i.e. end of twilight). Although it could be extended and begin when the sun first sinks beneath the horizon if one wishes to extend the time - this will depend on how one interprets SaBiH/glorify.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

*bond/affirmation/salat

[Timotheus]

Peace,

I believe the Quran clearly states 2 salat (contact) times (something i have only recently accepted)

11114 You shall hold the contact prayer at both ends of the day, that is, section of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder for those who remember.
(Reformist Translation - Edip Yuksel)

in my understanding, and i believe it is the best fitting interpretation, this verse says...

establish Salat at

i believe the part in square brackets is a self contained explanation, i.e the two ends of the day, during the early hours/approaches of the night.
Theese are also the 2 salat mentioned by name in the quran, salat al-fajr and salat al-eisha.

i believe that 2238 (mentioning al-salat al-wusta) is a description of HOW we should salat, not WHEN, i.e to uphold the salat, the best/foremost/most balanced (Wusta) salat, i believe this also is the best fit and interpretation of this verse. see the article below, it is alot better explained.

Also a big problem i have, is that God tells us that noon is a time for undress, and rest from the heat of the day. i cant recall the exact verse, but if there was a salat at mid day (i.e "the middle salat" as some interpret al-salat al-wusta) then that would be more important and worthy of mention than getting undressed and resting. (also if i recall correctly the verse is the same one which mentions salat al-fajr and al-eisha by name, and seems quite strange God would not mention the middle salat, as he mentions the two salat, and the time which this "middle salat" would supposedly be due, yet with no mention of there being a salat there.)

i dont wish to go in depth, but there is a great article here discussing salat timings and related issues http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

God says he made the quran fully detailed, and clear, and easy to understand. Now theese two salat, i believe, we can all agree are fully detailed, clear and easy to understand. The other 1-4 or more salat which certain people (including myself untill recently) uphold are not fully detailed, clear and easy to understand. and there are other problems with them, as described in the article i link (which is not my own work by the way, i believe if i recall correctly it is Wakas work, correct me if i am wrong)

I certainly feel at peace finaly with this interpretation, something i have not with any other. (i have gone from 5 - 6 - 3 - 10+ - 5 -3 -5 salat in the past and never realy been at content that it was the right way, as God describes)

Anyway i thought i would chip in, Praise God he guided me to this, and may he reward those who have dilligently studied this matter, and shared there understanding.

Peace.

[Comrox]

Peace,

I believe the Quran clearly states 2 salat (contact) times (something i have only recently accepted)

11114 You shall hold the contact prayer at both ends of the day, that is, section of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder for those who remember.
(Reformist Translation - Edip Yuksel)

in my understanding, and i believe it is the best fitting interpretation, this verse says...

establish Salat at

i believe the part in square brackets is a self contained explanation, i.e the two ends of the day, during the early hours/approaches of the night.
Theese are also the 2 salat mentioned by name in the quran, salat al-fajr and salat al-eisha.

i believe that 2238 (mentioning al-salat al-wusta) is a description of HOW we should salat, not WHEN, i.e to uphold the salat, the best/foremost/most balanced (Wusta) salat, i believe this also is the best fit and interpretation of this verse. see the article below, it is alot better explained.

Also a big problem i have, is that God tells us that noon is a time for undress, and rest from the heat of the day. i cant recall the exact verse, but if there was a salat at mid day (i.e "the middle salat" as some interpret al-salat al-wusta) then that would be more important and worthy of mention than getting undressed and resting. (also if i recall correctly the verse is the same one which mentions salat al-fajr and al-eisha by name, and seems quite strange God would not mention the middle salat, as he mentions the two salat, and the time which this "middle salat" would supposedly be due, yet with no mention of there being a salat there.)

i dont wish to go in depth, but there is a great article here discussing salat timings and related issues http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

God says he made the quran fully detailed, and clear, and easy to understand. Now theese two salat, i believe, we can all agree are fully detailed, clear and easy to understand. The other 1-4 or more salat which certain people (including myself untill recently) uphold are not fully detailed, clear and easy to understand. and there are other problems with them, as described in the article i link (which is not my own work by the way, i believe if i recall correctly it is Wakas work, correct me if i am wrong)

I certainly feel at peace finaly with this interpretation, something i have not with any other. (i have gone from 5 - 6 - 3 - 10+ - 5 -3 -5 salat in the past and never realy been at content that it was the right way, as God describes)

Anyway i thought i would chip in, Praise God he guided me to this, and may he reward those who have dilligently studied this matter, and shared there understanding.

Peace.

Thank you for sharing your insight and the article link - I really needed that. Perfect timing. Thanks. ;D

[Timotheus]

Thank you for sharing your insight and the article link - I really needed that. Perfect timing. Thanks. ;D

Peace, All praise is due to God, Lord of the universe, if i do any good it is because God has blessed me with it. God actualy literaly blessed me with this understanding, and the acceptance of it, yesterday, and i also felt i realy needed that and it was perfect timing. of course, it is because Gods timing cannot be anything other than perfect.

Peace