The devil as soulmate and sexual allies
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You mean for the "tree" being a humanoid species?
Salaam
Salam Huruf
Yes. The linking between both Neanderthal and Sapientes is clear, but this about the tree symbolizing the humanoid species is new to me, never heard of it and I would like to take a look.
By the way, isn't it just POETRY in all senses that Adam's story is basically saying that intelect and the so called common sense are monotheism?
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Thank you Comrox.
Can you explain how the devils "afflict" human beings ?
Free Minds translation of verses 726 (the translation you're using with the parenthesis makes it messy to dissect) "O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of God, perhaps they will remember."
Verse 727 "O Children of Adam, do not let the devil afflict you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removes from them their garments to show them their bodies. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe."
Does this verse support the word "afflict" in Verse 727?
And whoever turns away from the remembrance of the Almighty, We appoint a devil to be his associate (Qareen). And they hinder from the path, but they think they are guided! (4336-37)
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Salam, hermana Huruf
Yes. The linking between both Neanderthal and Sapientes is clear, but this about the tree symbolizing the humanoid species is new to me, never heard of it and I would like to take a look.
By the way, isn't it just POETRY in all senses that Adam's story is basically saying that intelect and the so called common sense are monotheism?
No, it is not only a tree. If we are speaking of humanoids, or humans of different strains, each would be a linneage, that is a tree, so that is why there is that tree, which it occurred to me that could be the eanderthal or for the matter any other which represented a risk for the human sepecies. The neanderthal I ued as an exmple of what the matter could hve been. It could alo have been something else, like diseases which could have ruined the adamic strain.Only the texts of Auel seemed to offer a clear case of danger for our strain. In spite fo it, some neanderthal did get inot our make up, and may be that was enough and there had been already prviously ome mixing and then in the garden it was cut off because of the evident dangers.
No, I do not think my friend has written any paper, and I think he read it somewhere. Personally I am far mmor convinced with some explainable thing, common snese, than fantastic magical stuff or the like, like is the usual redition of the events in the garden.
It is clear that we will not get a faithful and detailed relation of the whole thing, because we are too far removed to get a plausible picture of everything, but just on that point I feel more satisfied with an explanation which is intelligible.
Salaam
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I sometimes think about Adam and Eve and i can not understand, if all humans are from them, how did this happen? If Adam and Eve had children than those children when getting older and mature would have a kind of marriage and offspring. But If they were the only ones on earth than this would be incest. And that is forbidden by Allah, so there must have been other species or am i wrong?
About Heaven and the tree, we can discuss many years, is there somebody who has done a research on this? I would like to read it. I have heard stories that the earth was heaven and after the incident with the tree, there was no Heaven on Earth and ?ejtan came to misguide people on earth.Still i can not understand what Eve did and what kind of trick shejtan did do, that they revealed their bodies to each other. Where they not aware of their sexual lust and did they had sex and is that why it is written in Quran that they suddenly were aware of their bodies? We know what sex is, but did they knew it, maybe not and maybe shejtan showed them their lust to each other.
The tree could mean other people,maybe they had sex with an other specie? I also can not understand why there are so many different kind of people in the world if we are from only Adam and Eve that wuld we not look the same?
I do not know much about this, i just wonder how it all happened and what these surahs really tell us.
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Thank you Comrox.
Can you explain how the devils "afflict" human beings ?
Free Minds translation of verses 726 (the translation you're using with the parenthesis makes it messy to dissect) "O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of God, perhaps they will remember."
Verse 727 "O Children of Adam, do not let the devil afflict you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removes from them their garments to show them their bodies. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe."
I personally don't believe that "the devils" are actual cunning beings who are looking to corrupt humanity, so that belief of mine is going to influence my response from the start. Rather, I see "the devils" as the Id (the part of our personality that drives natural human desires, aggression, our sexual need, etc. - see here for more info if you're not familiar with what Freud came up with in his psyche model https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego#Id)
That being said, let's look at the definition of "afflict" it means "to cause pain or suffering to (someone or something)" (source http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/afflict)
So now we know that these devils, whatever you interpret them to be, cause humans pain and suffering. A few examples of this suffering, and what the devil does
"O people, eat from the earth's products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy. He only commands you to commit evil and vice, and to say about God what you do not know."
"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications."
"Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of God, yet they believe that they are guided."
See the following link to understand more about what "Satan" and the devils do according to the Qur'an http//submission.org/friday_Satan_in_Quran.html
Does this verse support the word "afflict" in Verse 727?
And whoever turns away from the remembrance of the Almighty, We appoint a devil to be his associate (Qareen). And they hinder from the path, but they think they are guided! (4336-37)
Yes, I believe so. All these verses about the devils and what they do must be considered as a whole to understand their nature and impact on humankind.
Hope this helped you again.
peace
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"afflict" then "removes from them their garments to show them their bodies" .
O Children of Adam, do not let the devil afflict you as he evicted your parents from the paradise;
he removes from them their garments to show them their bodies .
Could it be the reason that Allah prohibits marriages between believers and the disbelievers, ie. the devils as sexual allies ?
And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe; for a believing servant is better than a polytheist, even if she is pleasing to you. And do not give in marriage to the male polytheists until they believe; for a believing servant is better than a polytheist, even if he is pleasing you. These invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress , she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
Thank you Comrox.
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Too much sex in viions of the garden and the expulsion from it.
In the garden the adam who are being expelled is not just a couple, dressed or undressed, but many people. Look at aya 24
(Allah) said "Get ye down. Enemies of each other on earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
This "get down" and all the formulation that follows is in plural, not dual but plural and the number of people must be such that there can be sets of number of enemies on each sides.
Other than that, this whole scene is contrivedly sexed up. Why is everything made as if there was a question of nudity and sex in it?
In one translation it is said that God bestowed raiment upon them to cover their shame, but in fact it is misleading, what it says is
Oh children of adam we descended (anzalna, that is, the verb used to transmit revelation) the clothing to cover your bad deeds and make you look good, and the best of clothings is God-consciousness.
This God-consciousness is not obviously a matter of dress, but as always in the case of revelation, is a mater of morals and conscience, something which would make this people different from previous bashar without the ruh.
At not time it is said that their sexual organs were showing.
If you look at the occurrence of l-b-s, as verb or name in the Qur'an you will see that it is not necessarily material dressing or clothing, but it means also to cover things, obscure matters, confuse, non physical images self, the kind of person we appear to be.
God revealed (anzala) to those people who started to be human the elements of morals, of conscience, that is, their libaas, their garment.
"Traditionalists" are too taken up in the classical sexed-up narration of the garden as derived from the bible which is like a horror fairy tale. But if we manage to read the Qur'an forgetting all that previous conditioning, we may realise that what it tells is something different from that and rather logicaland consistent with the whole of Qur'an.
Salaam
Salaam
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"afflict" then "removes from them their garments to show them their bodies" .
Could it be the reason that Allah prohibits marriages between believers and the disbelievers, ie. the devils as sexual allies ?
Thank you Comrox.
You're welcome Fritz. )
I don't see why you're associating disbelievers with sexual devils?
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Because God doesn't use circular reasoning and states truth based on omniscience.
I believe here God make equal marriage to adultery, and prohibit the believers from such marriages.
The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress , she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
It is either marriage or adultery.
and it is not only mental exposure, but body exposure.
If it is about "mental exposure",
Personally, I believe it's about mental exposure. Human exposure.
Then why Allah prohibiting marriages between believers and disbelievers? body exposure.
Perhaps there are more than mental exposure?
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfdcx7TZabg&t=0m31s
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Maybe this is happening to those who ignore the revelations of Allah.
https//c5.staticflickr.com/8/7105/26910960364_8df3ffcda5_o.jpg
A curse from Allah.
Do those who commit sins think they can fool Us? Terrible is their opinion!
Believers
By your Lord, they will not be believers until they make you (Quran) judge in what they dispute with each other, then they will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided, and they will yield completely.
Disbelievers
None dispute in the revelations of God except those who have rejected. So do not be impressed by their influence in the land.
Those who rejected God and His messengers , and they want to make a separation between God and His messengers , and they say "We believe in some and reject some !" And they desire to take a path in-between . These are the true rejecters.
Is this possible?
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Too much sex in viions of the garden and the expulsion from it.
In the garden the adam who are being expelled is not just a couple, dressed or undressed, but many people. Look at aya 24
(Allah) said "Get ye down. Enemies of each other on earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
This "get down" and all the formulation that follows is in plural, not dual but plural and the number of people must be such that there can be sets of number of enemies on each sides.
Other than that, this whole scene is contrivedly sexed up. Why is everything made as if there was a question of nudity and sex in it?
In one translation it is said that God bestowed raiment upon them to cover their shame, but in fact it is misleading, what it says is
Oh children of adam we descended (anzalna, that is, the verb used to transmit revelation) the clothing to cover your bad deeds and make you look good, and the best of clothings is God-consciousness.
This God-consciousness is not obviously a matter of dress, but as always in the case of revelation, is a mater of morals and conscience, something which would make this people different from previous bashar without the ruh.
At not time it is said that their sexual organs were showing.
If you look at the occurrence of l-b-s, as verb or name in the Qur'an you will see that it is not necessarily material dressing or clothing, but it means also to cover things, obscure matters, confuse, non physical images self, the kind of person we appear to be.
God revealed (anzala) to those people who started to be human the elements of morals, of conscience, that is, their libaas, their garment.
"Traditionalists" are too taken up in the classical sexed-up narration of the garden as derived from the bible which is like a horror fairy tale. But if we manage to read the Qur'an forgetting all that previous conditioning, we may realise that what it tells is something different from that and rather logicaland consistent with the whole of Qur'an.
Salaam
Salaam
Selam,
i see you have done some research about the Adam and Eve story. What is your view and how would you explain these verses about Adam and Eve?
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Because God doesn't use circular reasoning and states truth based on omniscience.
I believe here God make equal marriage to adultery, and prohibit the believers from such marriages.
It is either marriage or adultery.
and it is not only mental exposure, but body exposure.
If it is about "mental exposure",
Then why Allah prohibiting marriages between believers and disbelievers? body exposure.
I disagree with you. It is my understanding that Allah prohibits marriage between believers and disbelievers because the disbelievers at the time were those who
- Pretended to be allies and believers to be close to the believers themselves, so they lied a lot it seems, and were never truthful with them
- Believed in God but refused to believe in the "new" scripture that was coming to them, despite believing in the "old" scripture
- Wanted to drive the believers out of their homes and plotted against them
- Had wealth and children, and thought those would evaluate their status in this world and with God (we have stories in Qur'an of people abusing their wealth, hoarding it, and thinking too much about worldly matters and possessions)
I do know that I have read about all of these attributes of disbelievers in the Qur'an. I'm not citing verses for them as it would take some time but I will if you ask. )
So, given all of those attributes, I believe that's why marriage is prohibited. These people weren't good people. All the actions of these disbelievers have to be considered. Today, the practice continues because people don't want to be with someone who has a vastly different religious background. (Although there is no such thing as religion in Qur'an, it still may be very difficult if someone is very God-centered and their partner is not.)
Maybe this is happening to those who ignore the revelations of Allah.
https//c5.staticflickr.com/8/7105/26910960364_8df3ffcda5_o.jpg
Is that a devil having sex with a human? ??? (On closer examination, it looks more like rape to me, honestly.)
A curse from Allah.
Do those who commit sins think they can fool Us? Terrible is their opinion!
Believers
By your Lord, they will not be believers until they make you (Quran) judge in what they dispute with each other, then they will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided, and they will yield completely.
Disbelievers
None dispute in the revelations of God except those who have rejected. So do not be impressed by their influence in the land.
Those who rejected God and His messengers , and they want to make a separation between God and His messengers , and they say "We believe in some and reject some !" And they desire to take a path in-between . These are the true rejecters.
Is this possible?
I don't agree with your conclusions that the devil or devils have any sexual relationship with us. In your interpretation it may be possible, but I don't believe that Qur'an supports this line of thinking.
But alas, we may all believe as we wish. )
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I disagree with you. It is my understanding that Allah prohibits marriage between believers and disbelievers because the disbelievers at the time were those who
- Pretended to be allies and believers to be close to the believers themselves, so they lied a lot it seems, and were never truthful with them
- Believed in God but refused to believe in the "new" scripture that was coming to them, despite believing in the "old" scripture
- Wanted to drive the believers out of their homes and plotted against them
- Had wealth and children, and thought those would evaluate their status in this world and with God (we have stories in Qur'an of people abusing their wealth, hoarding it, and thinking too much about worldly matters and possessions)
I do know that I have read about all of these attributes of believers in the Qur'an. I'm not citing verses for them as it would take some time but I will if you ask. )
So, given all of those attributes, I believe that's why marriage is prohibited. These people weren't good people. All the actions of these disbelievers have to be considered. Today, the practice continues because people don't want to be with someone who has a vastly different religious background. (Although there is no such thing as religion in Qur'an, it still may be very difficult if someone is very God-centered and their partner is not.)
Is that a devil having sex with a human? ??? (On closer examination, it looks more like rape to me, honestly.)
I don't agree with your conclusions that the devil or devils have any sexual relationship with us. In your interpretation it may be possible, but I don't believe that Qur'an supports the line of thinking.
But alas, we may all believe as we wish. )
I Think you are right
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Selam,
i see you have done some research about the Adam and Eve story. What is your view and how would you explain these verses about Adam and Eve?
There is o Adam and Eve in the Qur'an there is adam and his or her mate.Adam is the new human which was one entity and from it his or her mate are created. The adamand Eve is from a part of the bible not from Qur'an, and they are ot a single person or single couple, as can be seen from the ayas, there is a collectivity at least not oneperson or two persons.
The creation of the couple could be ss that of all mammals going back in the history of species or, as have theorized some mulim historians centuries ago, from a humanoid who might have bene hermafrodite and then the sexes were split.
I tend to believe tht the split was at the level of all the mammals in which it is obvious that there are the vestiges of the sexual trait of the other sex in both sexes. That is, the mate is not created by developping new traits but by suppressing some of those traits that were altogether in the original species.
Salaam
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Allah prohibits marriage between believers and disbelievers because the disbelievers at the time were those who
I believe the reason does not explain because the prohibitions apply to all human beings, good or evil people, and forever. There is no exception to it.
I don't believe that Qur'an supports this line of thinking.
It did and the word used is "adulterer" and "adulteress".
The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress , she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
Thank you.
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There is o Adam and Eve in the Qur'an there is adam and his or her mate.Adam is the new human which was one entity and from it his or her mate are created. The adamand Eve is from a part of the bible not from Qur'an, and they are ot a single person or single couple, as can be seen from the ayas, there is a collectivity at least not oneperson or two persons.
The creation of the couple could be ss that of all mammals going back in the history of species or, as have theorized some mulim historians centuries ago, from a humanoid who might have bene hermafrodite and then the sexes were split.
I tend to believe tht the split was at the level of all the mammals in which it is obvious that there are the vestiges of the sexual trait of the other sex in both sexes. That is, the mate is not created by developping new traits but by suppressing some of those traits that were altogether in the original species.
Salaam
Selam,
very interesting view, thanks for sharing.
How do you know for sure that it is not about one person and about a group? Did i understand it right, Adam represents more than one human? When i think about it is logic, it can not have been only Adam en Eve, then there would have been incest when their children got older.
Peace
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I believe the reason does not explain because the prohibitions apply to all human beings, good or evil people, and forever. There is no exception to it.
Even so, I feel Qur'an defines disbelievers in that way. So we're meant to avoid marrying disbelievers who are like this. Logically it makes sense too... no one would want to be involved with someone who is a constant liar while plotting against them.
Wait a second, we're still talking about 243 right? I think somewhere in this conversation I got confused. Which verses regarding marriage are you talking about?
It did and the word used is "adulterer" and "adulteress".
The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress , she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
Thank you.
My statement "I don't believe that Qur'an supports this line of thinking" wasn't towards what kind of marriage is lawful or not lawful. That statement was addressing possible sexual relationships with devils.
Peace. ) peace
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A explained in previou messages aya 7.24 indicates those expelled from the gardn was a community, see those messages.
alaam
Selam, thank you for replying i will read this ayet again, i did not know that it says that there was a community
Peace