Reducing land from its outlying borders ? If Flat Earth real than ?

Zulf

This is getting off topic.

The discussion should be about what the original quoted verse can be about.
The OP asked if it could mean that Earth is flat and there is an ice wall.
That should be the discussion.

To get anywhere on this topic, we should first of all look at the context of the verse, and the wordings.
For example, why does the brackets say that what we lose is the control of the lands?
What land is referred to? Is it land controlled by a specific group, or is it the entire Earth?

Also, nobody has claimed, from this verse given by OP, that Earth is round.

Cheers all

imrankhawaja

@ zulf

its depend on how we understand this all,,

for example a group of criminals are hiding from the state police and police put survellinace of every where like roads, water paths, sky force like airforce.. and inside the state ... its simple mean the land is reducing for them , in the sense of hiding

Zulf

"See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders?" (Surah ar-Rad 41)

Is then Flat Earthers correct by saying that our world is like a disc and there is a ice wall surronding us?

The verse and its surrounding ones have nothing to do which shapes of Earth.
Also, I didn't know that FE community thinks their ice wall is shrinking. The verse says something is being reduced. What is being reduced in FE model?

imrankhawaja

The verse and its surrounding ones have nothing to do which shapes of Earth.
Also, I didn't know that FE community thinks their ice wall is shrinking. The verse says something is being reduced. What is being reduced in FE model?

moreover if icewall is melting and earth is reducing its borders, why did not ice wall finish yet and if ice wall finish then there is absolutely no chance the sea level arrise, i think all water will flow out from disk.. and there will be more land then water lol

HP_TECH

Peace

Allah is pointing out to you an observable phenomena.

Some people don't like my approach and it is usually folks that don't bother to dig into Quranic related verses and mostly rely solely on their opinions and I am getting quite sick and tired of it...
Show us you have studied and cite the Quran with your arguments please

Unless you have substantial evidence from Quran to uphold your statements please refrain from sharing mere opinions.

There is almost always a sister ayaat or sometimes more for every concept in Quran. 1341 is not the only ayaat Allah mentions reducing the borders of the land 2144 as well!

1341 Did not they see that We come (to) the land, reducing it from its borders? And Allah judges; (there is) no adjuster (of) His Judgment. And He (is) Swift (in) the reckoning.

2144 Nay, We gave provision (to) these and their fathers until grew long for them, the life. Then do not they see that We We come (to) the land, We reduce it from its borders? So is (it) they (who will be) overcoming?

Let us consider the possibilities

I. Who is "do not THEY see" referring to?

a) disbelievers in general
OR
b) disbelievers in the region of the land (possibly those who were also campaigning against the prophet and the believers) which includes hostile members from the People of The Book being sections among Judeo-Nasara allies, Roman empire, African kingdoms.
Remember as Islam was spreading in Africa, Europe and parts of Asia, many neighboring "kingdoms" were losing territory/borders.

II. What does the reduction of borders of the land refer to?

a) It is a natural phenomena describing earth's water levels rising
OR
b) The reduction of governing territory/borders of the disbelievers who were neighboring the believers' strongholds/territory. Hence, Describing the advancement of the dominion of the believers over the disbelievers.

III. Is l-ardi referring to land or the earth?

a) the entire earth
OR
b) referring to land as in territory, country, region

With almost all probability it is a) the entire earth. Three reasons

In Quran al-ardi almost always refers to the entire earth
In addition, if Allah were referring to a specific people's land the possessive pronoun could have been used as in 3327 (their land) ardahum or ardan when referring to a nonspecific land/territory.

3327 Waawrathakum ardahum wadiyarahum waamwalahum waardan lam tataooha wakana Allahu AAala kulli shay-in qadeeran
3327 And He caused you to inherit their land, and their houses, and their properties and a land not you (had) trodden. And Allah is on every thing All-Powerful.

Conclusively, Allah comes to the land and reduces the borders of the land NOT the borders of the ones who are called to observe.
The pronoun used for borders and the verb to reduce, the word land are all feminine singular, while they is masculine plural.

(13415)
l-ara
(to) the land, N accusative feminine noun

(13416)
nanquuh
reducing it V 1st person plural imperfect verb
PRON 3rd person feminine singular object pronoun
??
(1341
arfih
its borders? N genitive masculine plural noun
PRON 3rd person feminine singular possessive pronoun
??

(214413)
l-ara
(to) the land, N accusative feminine noun

(214414)
nanquuh
We reduce it V 1st person plural imperfect verb
PRON 3rd person feminine singular object pronoun
??
(214416)
arfih
its borders? N genitive masculine plural noun
PRON 3rd person feminine singular possessive pronoun
??

OBSERVATIONS

It seems like grammatically it is pointing towards al-ardi referring to the entire earth (per above).
Allah mentions in the previous and subsequent verses punishment of the Last Day
This is completely in conjunction with idea that the disbelievers are failing to understand that they cannot escape Allah, no matter how much wealth they accumulate, or how long they live, they cannot overcome the inevitability of The Punishment of The Approaching Day which has approached (211, 5357), for the which indications/some of its Signs have arrived( 471.

1340 And whether We show you a part (of) what We have promised them or We cause you to die, so only on you (is) the conveyance, and on Us (is) the reckoning.

2137 Is created the man of haste. I will show you My Signs so (do) not ask Me to hasten.
2138 And they say, "When (will be fulfilled) this promise, if you are truthful?"
2139 If knew those who disbelieved (the) time (when) not they will avert from their faces the Fire and not from their backs and not they will be helped!
2140 Nay, it will come to them unexpectedly and bewilder them, then not they will be able to repel it, and not they will be given respite.
2141 And verily, were mocked Messengers before you then surrounded those who mocked from them what they used at it (to) mock.
2142 Say, "Who (can) protect you in the night and the day from the Most Gracious?" Yet, they from (the) remembrance (of) their Lord turn away.
2143 Or have they gods (to) defend them from Us? Not they are able (to) help themselves and not they from Us can be protected.
2144 Nay, We gave provision (to) these and their fathers until grew long for them, the life. Then do not THEY see that We We come (to) the land, We reduce it from its borders? So is (it) they (who will be) overcoming?
2144 Say, "Only I warn you by the revelation." But not hear the deaf the call when they are warned.

Finally, we are invited to observe that the land is being reduced at its borders by water, meaning water level is constantly rising.
This is a warning that eventually the promise will be fulfilled and the seas will rise and swell causing tsunamis and floods across the earth

Verses in support. Prophecies of seas made to overflow/water level rising

3041 Has appeared the corruption in the land and the sea for what have earned (the) hands (of) people, so that He may let them taste a part (of) that which they have done so that they may return.

526 By the sea filled

816 And when the seas are made to overflow,

823 And when the seas are made to gush

Please begin truly studying Quran if you are believers

PS
Those verses have nothing to do with shape of the earth but that long post I made did and it is sufficient clear evidence for the believers. Everyone else will buy the lies. It does not matter to me, I will not grieve over the stubborn defiant ones...

But this verse does!!! 2265 should wake up the FE disbelievers!

2265 Do not you see that Allah (has) subjected to you what (is) in the earth, and the ships that sail through the sea by His Command? And He withholds the sky lest it falls on the earth except by His permission. Indeed, Allah to mankind (is) Full of Kindness, Most Merciful.

Come to us brothers if you in Allah Alone believe!

huruf

Given the ontext of what is beings said before and after this aya, I tend to think that it is peaking of human experience and not of objetive data about phenomena. I should think that it is saying that as we live your lives ad possiilities and prospects become narrower. Whereas in chidlhood ad youth we might have dreamed of the whole earth being open to us as we get older the openings become fewer and fewer and fewer... our earth becomes narrower...

Salaam

what I said abut the previous aya is also good for this 21.44 and also call attention that it is not speaking about borders but about ends, aTraaf.

Salaam

HP_TECH

Peace

Borders makes sense, also extremities and ends

(1341
arfih
its borders?

N ? genitive masculine plural noun
PRON ? 3rd person feminine singular possessive pronoun ??

= Tay-Ra-Fa = attack the extremity of the enemy's lines, chose a thing, extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border, end, newly acquired, proximity, fringes.
leaders/thinkers/scholars, best of the fruits.
Look from outer angle of eye, twinkle in eye, putting eyelids in motion, looking, glance, blinking, raise/open eyes, hurt the eye and make it water.
descend from an ancient family, noble man in respect of ancestry.

tarafa vb. (1) n.vb. 1443, 2740, 3748, 3852, 4245, 5556

taraf. n.m. (pl. atraf) 3127, 11114, 1341, 20130, 2144

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=Trf

http//ejtaal.net/aa/img/ll/19/ll-1931.png

Zulf

It reminds me about someone who counted the occurrences of words in the quran, and in this case it was words for land vs sea. The person concluded that the equilibrium ratios he found indicated that the land mass will decrease and sea surface will increase. Cannot recall any figure or who did the work.

Cheers

HP_TECH

It reminds me about someone who counted the occurrences of words in the quran, and in this case it was words for land vs sea. The person concluded that the equilibrium ratios he found indicated that the land mass will decrease and sea surface will increase. Cannot recall any figure or who did the work.

Cheers

I see, but I rely on context of the words and passages.
Ratio of occurrences alone don't seem to convincing

Cheers

imrankhawaja

2144 It was Us who gave luxury to these and their fathers, until they grew old with age. Do they not see that We come to the land and reduce it from its edges? Will they be able to win?

i have another understanding regarding this... verse... but again its just understanding God knows best..

actually in the start of bgbang when the earth was young... it was full of land mass... just land everywhere.. after a passage of time God sent down water in it.. or scietist thinks its asteriods that hit the surface with water in it... from there the life start generating..

so with respect to this understanding we can say God reduce the edges of land.. it quite understandable...

@ hp tech brother

Please begin truly studying Quran if you are believers

PS
Those verses have nothing to do with shape of the earth but that long post I made did and it is sufficient clear evidence for the believers. Everyone else will buy the lies. It does not matter to me, I will not grieve over the stubborn defiant ones...

But this verse does!!! 2265 should wake up the FE disbelievers!

i have questions

who are these fe disbeleivers? any sect or kaffirs...
what are lies exactly ? explain it plz...
do you think FE disbeleivers are not reading quran truly?
who is stubborn? flat earthers or round earthers
believing in shape of earth is require to get submittor? who is submitter the one who submit his will or the one who beleive earth is flat?

answer it as i feel it very personal... what happend to you ,you are behaving like there is a secterian fight is going one there...?

peace

huruf

I have poited out everal times in this question of flat earth that wemust not confuse element earth with planet earth, but still it is doe all along so that in fact nobody knows what is being talked about all the time.

Salaam

hanslan

According to older scripture the earth is flat and a jesuit by the name of copernicus invented the sun centric model instead of the earth centric model.

HP_TECH

I have poited out everal times in this question of flat earth that wemust not confuse element earth with planet earth, but still it is doe all along so that in fact nobody knows what is being talked about all the time.

Salaam

At this point dear Huruf I'm going to have to call you out on your bs
I have told you clearly why your argument doesn't hold months and months ago.
Who cares what you have pointed out several times if you don't care enough to think about the responses you were given several times?

Link below this time please do read and learn how Quran distinguishes between earth and soil.
So we don't have to keep derailing thank you.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608018.msg384529#msg384529

HP_TECH

2144 It was Us who gave luxury to these and their fathers, until they grew old with age. Do they not see that We come to the land and reduce it from its edges? Will they be able to win?

i have another understanding regarding this... verse... but again its just understanding God knows best..

actually in the start of bgbang when the earth was young... it was full of land mass... just land everywhere.. after a passage of time God sent down water in it.. or scietist thinks its asteriods that hit the surface with water in it... from there the life start generating..

so with respect to this understanding we can say God reduce the edges of land.. it quite understandable...

@ hp tech brother

Please begin truly studying Quran if you are believers

PS
Those verses have nothing to do with shape of the earth but that long post I made did and it is sufficient clear evidence for the believers. Everyone else will buy the lies. It does not matter to me, I will not grieve over the stubborn defiant ones...

But this verse does!!! 2265 should wake up the FE disbelievers!

i have questions

who are these fe disbeleivers? any sect or kaffirs...
what are lies exactly ? explain it plz...
do you think FE disbeleivers are not reading quran truly?
who is stubborn? flat earthers or round earthers
believing in shape of earth is require to get submittor? who is submitter the one who submit his will or the one who beleive earth is flat?

answer it as i feel it very personal... what happend to you ,you are behaving like there is a secterian fight is going one there...?

peace

I get what you're saying. You're pretty much saying what I have been saying throughout, it is water level rising being described.
The only issue I have personally with your understanding is the association with Allah by mentioning Big Bang and asteroid bringing water.
Allah conveys rain pouring down from the sky not an icy rock.
Also Big Bang is not scientific. Explosions build things?
In my God given reasoning explosions tend to destroy, deconstruct matter not build or assemble matter.
That is absurdity.

Also in your understanding if earth is a ball spinning freely in space where is the source of the surging water?

The correct model and understanding is that the earth is sandwiched between waters above and below.
If you read Quran earnestly and abandoned every bias, the story of Noah and the waters meeting from above and below for a matter predestined would resonate with this.

As for why do I feel that you are all misguided I have already conveyed in reply #10.
If you are adamantly denying the apparent Signs of Allah which include the earth and the truth in which He created it and the luminaries and everything else, and you are denying the truth about His creation solely on human knowledge then you are akin to all the disbelievers of old who rejoiced in what they earned and what they thought they reached in knowledge like Aad and Thamud. Their knowledge did not avail them and neither it will avail you if you do not stand firm.
You are also not supporting all the believers who are standing firm on Quran and causing division, instead of supporting the believers you side with the deceiving disbelievers that claim Big Bang, evolution, dinosaurs, and heliocentric model.
How more astray can one be?

Man_of_Faith

HP_TECH,

And how does it matter? There are ambiguous signs that the Earth is spherical too.

Why would it bother Allah whatever people believe about the form of a worldly layout?

HP_TECH

HP_TECH,

And how does it matter? There are ambiguous signs that the Earth is spherical too.

Why would it bother Allah whatever people believe about the form of a worldly layout?

Look at you...
Nothing bothers Allah period, whether you believe or disbelieve or whether you preach false teachings or lie about Allah, none of that frustrates my Lord in the least.

But it will certainly be a grievance upon yourselves that you have denied the truth.
I suspect the denial of the apparent nature of His Creation is not the only matter in which those of you who argue against us are differing in...
Allah intends what He wills.

You deny the truth about His Signs, because you have been deceived by the deceiver,
If he can successfully deceive you about the habitat you live in despite Allah having detailed His Signs so that you may believe in Him and The Day of Meeting, what else has he deceived you all about?

I would fear Allah if I was in your shoes, do not take for granted that you are being led astray for what lies in your hearts and for what you utter and for what you speculate and all the doubt you all entertain in this forum.

You will certainly remember my Words

Those who have believed hold firm and do not be deceived by false teachings, false science, false reasoning etcc...

Regards

Bender

HP_TECH,

I believe it will not take long time before space flights will be in reach for ordinary people.
Just wondering if you will still believe in the quran if at that time you take such a trip and see with your own eyes that the earth is spherical.

HP_TECH

HP_TECH,

I believe it will not take long time before space flights will be in reach for ordinary people.
Just wondering if you will still believe in the quran if at that time you take such a trip and see with your own eyes that the earth is spherical.

Your refusal to simply acknowledge evidence provided in this thread and others baffles me.
You are not humble in admitting that you have not researched the matter enough to make any firm conclusion and neither do you take the heavy evidenced presentation as a mere possibility.
You are not a serious investigator...
A mind that has been sealed do you possess and eyes that have been veiled.
A mind that refuses to understand there is no substantial empirical evidence to prove the earth is spherical,
a mind that refuses to reason and ponder about the Signs of Allah depicting the plane reality

The disbelievers would like for us to believer the earth is a sphere one among billions of other possible earth like habitats orbiting the stars. They would like for you to believe that you are a mere randomality and that there is other life beyond our galaxies with intelligent lifeforms sprawling. It is a distortion of the truth.
They would love for you to believe that Allah created according to their theories (Big Bang, evolution)
In the effort to distance you from the inherent truth that you were purposely placed in this enclosed safeguarded perfectly designed and subdued environment. The inherent truth that it is not some random chance that can give rise to life forms but Precise Calculated Intelligence Wisdom.

You have swallowed the drink of deception and your speech in my coherently sober mind/hearing is drunk talk

Man_of_Faith

HP_TECH,

What convinces you of the flatness of Earth? What Quran allegedly says according to some deluded clerics?

Be well
Amenuel

Bender

Your refusal to simply acknowledge evidence provided in this thread and others baffles me.
You are not humble in admitting that you have not researched the matter enough to make any firm conclusion and neither do you take the heavy evidenced presentation as a mere possibility.
You are not a serious investigator...
A mind that has been sealed do you possess and eyes that have been veiled.
A mind that refuses to understand there is no substantial empirical evidence to prove the earth is spherical,
a mind that refuses to reason and ponder about the Signs of Allah depicting the plane reality

The disbelievers would like for us to believer the earth is a sphere one among billions of other possible earth like habitats orbiting the stars. They would like for you to believe that you are a mere randomality and that there is other life beyond our galaxies with intelligent lifeforms sprawling. It is a distortion of the truth.
They would love for you to believe that Allah created according to their theories (Big Bang, evolution)
In the effort to distance you from the inherent truth that you were purposely placed in this enclosed safeguarded perfectly designed and subdued environment. The inherent truth that it is not some random chance that can give rise to life forms but Precise Calculated Intelligence Wisdom.

You have swallowed the drink of deception and your speech in my coherently sober mind/hearing is drunk talk

Ok, but I truly believe that in the near future (if we live long enough), we (=ordinary people) can afford a space flight.
So I was wondering if you will still believe in the quran when you can see with your own eyes that the earth spherical.