Quran and Pedophilia
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It seems that the male animals can even rape the females even if they are just children.
Like I wrote, animals act upon instincts and have no abstract (free-thinking) intelligence and know not of consequences. If the male is having higher than normal hormone levels it will likely act out on first best female. Scary or not, animals are just doing what they are programmed to do. If nurture is in the "program" they will because they are set to do it and they will do it without any questions (they cannot reflect upon if it is "boring" or not because their thinking cannot extend that far). They can also be tricked into thinking they nurture their own due to forming a pack together with humans. It does not make them human but one only exploits their innate instinct.
I do not intend to declare animals worthless and there is limited slightly more advanced intelligence in certain species of animals, but they are still slaves to their instincts and will fulfill their evolution cycle which means to bring their offspring to live on. Sadly, in very worldly people, which is a huge amount of people in the world, you can see they are not much better than animals and will live their lives doing it just like animals but on another level of course. I mean the principle is the same. Be born, taught how society works, support their family, hoard resources and eventually die. Animals basically live the same lives. More in detail, humans seek activities in life following their instinctive impulses, they compete because that is in their instinct and seek to triumph and be more respected than others. It works exactly the same as in many species of animals.
Might be what happens in human males with a disturbed mind who are dim-witted.
I think they should raise the age. I feel even at 21, we are not very mature.
We become mature slower today because we allow children to be children longer. Children are allowed to play longer. In the past children would be thrown early into adult life and therefore forced to become mature.
I might be starting to become a grumpy old man, but I actually agree children should not play meaningless games for too long and concentrate on studies instead. Children learn motor skill etc to a certain extent, but eventually it becomes just entertainment. Also children's games should be focused on something like edutainment. Children's games need to be supervised. It is not constructive for children on free time to run around with wooden sticks imitating those are rifles and then imagine they shoot each other with them. Children need far more supervision than what we give them today. If children were stimulated they could be university graduates at the age of 18, their minds are so sharp still. A teenager turning 20 could be newly examined doctor on trial. They are childish because we do not control them sufficiently, childishness is "normalized". No one needs to be child for long per se. So much of our lives is wasted because we are not efficient.
But I guess I am a bit utopian, because humans are not that efficient and logical because the instinct has to always be involved.
And perhaps adults need to stop themselves to romanticize violence.
Be well
Amenuel -
Salam,
Allow me to expound my understanding although many of the ideas have been expounded by many of you already.
Human behaviour and animal behaviour shoud not and can not be compared. Just observing the animal kingdom, nothing else, you will surely find out the difference and the fact that, as social animals ergo animals who live in highly complex communities, our instincs are also social. Anything able to potentially put in risk the community is punishable and many times even considered loathsome. From the first appearance of homo sapiens in this world every community has stated its own standards for the well being of it and its protection, even if those standards were consider wrong by minorities within the specific community or by other foreign communities.
Animals who live in communities set priorities as we do, and one of them is the protection of the offspring while they are young, just as we do. Usually within animals it is puberty which will show the moment when the individual is ready to leave the community and start a new one or to start its own family in the community. I am from now on refering to mammels as the level of care and protection to the youngest shown by mammels is not found in any other animal species.
All along infancy the youngest will be taught and will learn what is necessary to meet the puberty period perfectly ready to stablish its own new community or family nucleus. An insufficient learning or lack of skills will lead to alienation of the individual and even his death.Regarding human behaviour, age for marriage is a standard stated by every community and it is different now from what is was in older times, and it is very different from community to community because our learning/ skill acquisition period has changed through the years, getting longer and more complex just as our comminities grew in complexity. As our communities get more and more complex, the age for marriage will be higher in order the youngest to get ready for the obligations, responsabilities and even rights of adulthood, otherwise we are condemning our youngest to social alineation or even social death sending them with no skills to assume a role they are not ready to implement.
Regarding corporal development... I think we should never take it into account. Not at all. Human being is very different from animals in many biological senses. For example, he is definitely a useless puppy when born. All animals are ready to run or at least to ?try? to run just few minutes after they are born while human being needs weeks even to turn his head for the first time. Not even cranial bones have concluded its joining when human being is born and for the first year of his life human being is just condemned to death if left alone. We need the community from the moment we are born and we subdue to it and it determines inevitably our self development and vision of the world.
Now, please, note that Quran is always refering to the age of MARRIAGE and not the age of procreation or/and intercourse , and God knows very well what He sends down. The age for procreation is given by nature, not by community, but the age of marriage is something very different and it is a social issue, different in every community and in every period of human social history, as I said before, determined by the complexity of our societies.
Has Quran defined that marriage is exclusively a ?permission for sex? or a contract for sexual intercourse between 2 parts? Of course not. Does it say ?the girl menstruated, get married the next day?? No. It is much more and implies many other obligations and rights where at least a basic maturity is needed.
421 And how can you take it when you have become intimate with each other, and they have taken from you a solemn covenant.
Now, please, tell me if a child who has just menstruated can take a solemn covenant?
When that basic maturity I was talking about is reached? I personally read about it in the following superb verses about human personal development
4615
And We enjoined the human being to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and weaning lasts thirty months. So that, when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted.Quran itself refers to a huge period and talks about ?independence? and not sexual maturity, because God knows that age of ?independence? will change through the centuries and among communities.
So, taking into account that MARRIAGE is not only sex and procreation and that it implies many other obligations, responsabilities and rights, no child could ever be considered in age for marriage according to Quran.
So, now, I don't get why we are refering here chapter 65 and specifically 654! This is talking about divorce!!!!!!!! whoever reads that ?those who did not menstruate? is related to children who have never menstruated before is just stating
- That marriage is only a contract and mental and physical maturity is not included. Something against quranic teachings.
- That a girl child has the maturity (understood as I explained before) to get married when she has not even menstruated yet, and not only that, therefore she has the maturity even to divorce!
Both 1 and 2 are not quranic at all nope
The age difference between the spouse is just a question of taste, and God has not stated anything about it because any sincere, real and honest relationship is welcome to God's eyes, I suppose, He is the Merciful, the Wise.
May God enlighten us better and by His wise willing to have a greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat new year!!! Happy new year to everybody!! group
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I would say they are quite similar, humans and animals. The human is just a slightly more advanced primate with its instincts and the main difference is the highly potential spirit attached to it.
Of course there are behavioral differences between species, even within the family of primates. Each has variations in instinctive behavior and also Homo sapiens is a subspecies.
Instincts can make one know by nature what to do, but one becomes also limited to this world.
You mentioned that the human can be vastly different from other animals, but this is because it is engineered specifically for the purpose here and brings challenge. Every animal is basically engineered. And Homo sapiens is an animal on its own, it is the elevated special spirit making it stand out and function the way it does.
But you said ALL animals can run at birth, but there are fairly helpless babies in the animal world too. Many baby birds that cannot do much and are born initially blind, like humans. And a human baby will look for the breast instinctively when near its mother despite barely seeing anything and the sucking is instinctive. The suck reflex will eventually just vanish. The human baby is just as capable as some animal babies in the animal world. It is different between species.
It is true the human child is a child during a longer period but this is species-related thing. Humans also have among the longest total life spans (not saying the longest). However, some primate species resemble Homo sapiens and its growth speed of children. An infant gorilla can walk at the age of 6 months and they reach 50 years of age. I am sure if they lived like humans with same hygiene and nutrients they would perhaps increase it too. And a gorilla is not fully adult until the age of ten. By adult there I suppose it means it is fertile and passed puberty.
Be well
Amenuel -
I would say they are quite similar, humans and animals. The human is just a slightly more advanced primate with its instincts and the main difference is the highly potential spirit attached to it.
Of course there are behavioral differences between species, even within the family of primates. Each has variations in instinctive behavior and also Homo sapiens is a subspecies.
Similar does not mean same.
Instincts can make one know by nature what to do, but one becomes also limited to this world.
I will never agree with this holistic rejection of instincs. Instincs are there for a reason and it is God who created us with instincs and mind. thinking is also a human instinc, morality is also a human instinc, and faith is a human instinc too.
But you said ALL animals can run at birth, but there are fairly helpless babies in the animal world too. Many baby birds that cannot do much and are born initially blind, like humans. And a human baby will look for the breast instinctively when near its mother despite barely seeing anything and the sucking is instinctive. The suck reflex will eventually just vanish. The human baby is just as capable as some animal babies in the animal world. It is different between species.
No I did not mean ALL animals and that is why I wrote a "try" after that thinking it would cover the non writen "almost" all animals... Also "as uncapable" as human being there is no other. Only his brain and the community will keep him alive even in adulthood.
It is true the human child is a child during a longer period but this is species-related thing. Humans also have among the longest total life spans (not saying the longest). However, some primate species resemble Homo sapiens and its growth speed of children. An infant gorilla can walk at the age of 6 months and they reach 50 years of age. I am sure if they lived like humans with same hygiene and nutrients they would perhaps increase it too. And a gorilla is not fully adult until the age of ten. By adult there I suppose it means it is fertile and passed puberty.
Gorillas are very similar to us but they are not us. First of all gorillas are not bipedal and the age they can almost try to escape a predator is very sooner than 6 months. Their mothers would carry them for almost 2 years although they can walk themselves much earlier. Also they seem to reach adulthood even earlier than sexual maturity. Anyway this is not a discussion about gorillas and the topic is closed and I think despite of the possible misundertandings and lack of some words, I made my point soooooooooo happy new yeaaaar
God bless you all
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I'm really bored...thinking about clearing some words.
If a 60 year old marries a 20 year old, that's not pedophilia.
Pedo (child) philia (love). The 20 year old is a young adult.
When does one leave childhood? Puberty.
What is it called when a +50 yo marries someone who has hit puberty (10-11 yo)? I don't know, but to me this is immoral. Anyone else know?
There must be a good definition in Quran, but overlooked when someone can marry a young woman.Remember these are all man-made definitions. So Quran has answer but maybe too overlooked. The key is in checking the lactation and the verses regarding mothers breastfeeding two years or having nursing mothers. When can a woman lactate? Is that the age when women can get married?
WE NEED A DOCTOR! At what age can young women lactate after pregnancy (theoritcal of course)???? brickwall brickwall
Or perhaps we should look into menarche and what follows instead?
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
Salam
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WE NEED A DOCTOR! At what age can women lactate after pregnancy???? brickwall brickwall
Salam
Yes, please, ask one because ...
Actually a woman can lactate even before the delivery time while she is still pregnant so the right age is just few weeks before the delivery of her first child rotfllet's ask a veterinatian and a biologist too to see when it happens in other species confused
(Yes of course i am joking)
Salam to you too peace
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Yes, please, ask one because ...
Actually a woman can lactate even before the delivery time while she is still pregnant so the right age is just few weeks before the delivery of her first child rotfllet's ask a veterinatian and a biologist too to see when it happens in other species confused
(Yes of course i am joking)
Salam to you too peace
You misunderstood me...If a perverted man marries a young girl, she has hit puberty, and she becomes pregnant, after delivery...can she lactate?
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Yes, please, ask one because ...
Actually some woman can lactate even before the delivery time while she is still pregnant so the right age is just few weeks before the delivery of her first child rotfllet's ask a veterinatian and a biologist too to see when it happens in other species confused
(Yes of course i am joking)
Salam to you too peace
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Sorry, i did not understand you at all then...
laugh Changed it, maybe it's more understandable now
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I will never agree with this holistic rejection of instincs. Instincs are there for a reason and it is God who created us with instincs and mind. thinking is also a human instinc, morality is also a human instinc, and faith is a human instinc too.
Fair enough.
Instincts = Satan.
The Spirit is separate from the flesh/body, so with your impossible stance ("never agree" you will not prosper.
Faith is not an instinct, it is a logical deduction that reinforces one's character. Faith connoted with worship, especially a material deity is instinct. All instincts should be avoided because that is the best translation of Satan as a word.
Thinking (free-minded) is not an instinct, it is a functionality not possible in animals and is bound to the superior spirit. Animals cannot think because they have no spirit of depth while humans have it. The result of thinking may be brought by the instinct on the other hand.
Did you learn nothing from me?
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Regarding this issue we first need to make a distinct standpoint whether we want to talk about Quranic norm, or about other social norms.
Quran clearly doesn't state any prohibition concerning age of marriage. So we can't say such man-made term "pedophilia" is forbidden based on Quran per se. Finish. Full stop.
However, just because Quran doesn't forbid something it doesn't mean we can't generate any regulation about that. Remember that Quran only rules some particular norms and doesn't intended to rule all of human affairs in full details. Thus, people need to use their mind to making rules about what they think need to be ruled as long as don't contend with Quran.
You may eat halal foods, but you will be arrested by police if you eat them by sitting down on the middle of main street at busy hours with all your family. The reason is disturbing public order. Same apply to our topic. I think none of wise government will allow marriage in too low age. Sex activity even can cause fatality on little girl. In fact it is common for countries to rule age of marriage. In Indonesia a man need to reach age 19 and woman need to reach age 16 (which still considered as "immature" if we use 18 as maturity age) to marry. In my opinion, regulation regarding age of marriage should be as low as tolerable because its about determining "minimum age", not "ideal age".
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Of course there is no place for pedophilia in Qur'an.
The Qur'an orders everybody to not marry women without acknowledging their faculty of consent. To have the faculty of consent you have to be of certain age, so that indeed you know what you are contracting. It is a must.
Salaam
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Regarding this issue we first need to make a distinct standpoint whether we want to talk about Quranic norm, or about other social norms.
Quran clearly doesn't state any prohibition concerning age of marriage. So we can't say such man-made term "pedophilia" is forbidden based on Quran per se. Finish. Full stop.
No it's not finish, full stop. If you think God allows such sick and filthy practices then you are reading a different quran than the one I have.
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Thinking (free-minded) is not an instinct, it is a functionality not possible in animals and is bound to the superior spirit. Animals cannot think because they have no spirit of depth while humans have it. The result of thinking may be brought by the instinct on the other hand.
I dont think so. 2441 states clearly that there is faith and prayer in the whole creation, every single species or material is doing its own prayer and role in this duny'a. And we are obliged to respect and take care of His creation, of which we are just a part. When we forget that we become the destructive plague we are
Did you learn nothing from me?
Was I a student and i did not know? confused
Are you always right, really?
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Lactation is just a next step after pregnancy so every healthy woman who has given birth can lactate
I know D, though thats not what I meant.
Salam
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I dont think so. 2441 states clearly that there is faith and prayer in the whole creation, every single species or material is doing its own prayer and role in this duny'a.
Interpretation by Dr. Shabbir Ahmed
2441 Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.16
Note 16
All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive do their Tasbeeh in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed guidance and thus strive do Tasbeeh in the best wayTo my humble understanding this verse gives us the meaning of salat and tasbeeh. It starts with "Do you not realize..." Can anyone realize how the birds and other creations do salat and tasbeeh if these terms are understood as contact prayer and glorification? I dont know if any creation other than "Muslims" have a hadith corpus to find out details of contact prayer and glorification. What Dr.Shabbir Ahmed has interpreted makes a better sense of the term salat and tasbeeh (mission and strife) in this verse. And of course it is my view and everyone has the right to have their own view.
