Something thought provoking

The_Sardar

RED ask the evidence?
specially if there is something you can compare to true God (ch 112)

BLUE , there is no diety but Allah.
God is not an object , using this word object for God is not suitable ..

worship people take it as "ritual" to any diety or thing..

the word "ibada" mean to serve ..

serving Allah is not shirk.. serving true God is not shirk..
willingly or unwillingly everything in heavens and earth is serving God..

GREEN no need to get confuse.. in fact the nature of God is beyond the perception of human mind.. so i guess your brother is also a human being like us.. he dnt have a built in super human mind to understand the nature of God.. peace

simple serving is to obey his commands that generate a peacemaking atmosphere around us..

You know something i noticed when he said La ilaha ilallah, he missed one last word la ilaha illa HUWA, which means there is no god but He. That means Allah (SWT) is denies false gods but saying he is The One True God. (If i get that right because thats what im seeing.)

imrankhawaja

there are lot of other examples like this.

Allahu la ilaha illahuwa alhayyu alqayyoomu

Allah, there is no god except He, the Living/the Sustainer/EVERLASTING

The_Sardar

Man ever since this conversation i had with this man i cant tug of war in my mind about Allah (SWT) being a god or not a god, its been bothering me for a few days i honestly dont know what to think its true. Me personally i do believe Allah (SWT) is the One True God. But ever since that photo when quranist showed me, its tugging my mind that if i believe Allah is a god that would be shirk according to one quranist (which i find it weird and off) but at the if i dont acknowlagde Allah being a god i could be very mistaken and the outcome would be embarassing to me. Wow this thinking is rushing me. &

Here is the photo im talking about https//scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19424284_10209442930254605_5371361913832599540_n.jpg?oh=a449942d890e95c0b166a54766d355d8&oe=59C85468

The_Sardar

there are lot of other examples like this.

Allahu la ilaha illahuwa alhayyu alqayyoomu

Allah, there is no god except He, the Living/the Sustainer/EVERLASTING

I also found this 6413 Allahu la ilaha illahuwa waAAala Allahi falyatawakkali almu/minoona God! There is no deity but Him. On God, then, let the believers put their trust. Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)

imrankhawaja

God = male diety
Goddess = female diety..

thats something interesting to ponder about.

The_Sardar

God = male diety
Goddess = female diety..

thats something interesting to ponder about.

Im not quite sure what this means. Our Lord is above all so Allah (SWT) does not a gender, The Gracious created the genders.

imrankhawaja

Im not quite sure what this means. Our Lord is above all so Allah (SWT) does not a gender, The Gracious created the genders.

exactly thats what i wanted to tell you..

Allah is far above the laws and rules made by humans to categorized things, nature,gender etc..

dnt need to get confuse on the theories that based on theoretical understandings.. (Allah is far above whatever we associate with him)

The_Sardar

exactly thats what i wanted to tell you..

Allah is far above the laws and rules made by humans to categorized things, nature,gender etc..

dnt need to get confuse on the theories that based on theoretical understandings.. (Allah is far above whatever we associate with him)

On that we agree human brother Imran. Still cant get over this picture i showed yesterday. Something tells me this is not everything what it seems. If someone could research this picture i shown i would be thankful for this. By they way is it true that being a diety is highest of the highest right?

Here is a verse 139 AAalimu alghaybi waalshshahadatialkabeeru almutaAAali

The Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Great, the Most High.

Ayn-Lam-Waw = to be high, elevated, lofty, exalted, ascend, overcome, be proud/upon/over, go up, rise in rank or dignity, raise, take up, mount, overtop.

'Alaa (pap. 3rd. m. sing.) Overcome; Have dominated.
'Alau (prf. 3rd. m. plu. IV) They overcome, conquered.
Laa Ta'lau (prt. neg. m. plu.) Exalt not; Do not rise up.
Ta'lunna (imp. 2nd. m. plu. emp.) Ye will surely become overbearing.
Ta'aalaa High above (all).
Ista'laa (prf. 3rd. m. sing. X) Become uppermost; Successful.
'Aalin (act. pic. m. sing. juss.) Self-exalting one; Tyrant; Haughty.
'Aaliyan (act. pic. acc.) Self exalted one; Haughty.
'Aaliya Upside-over (Them).
'Aaliin (act. pic. m. plu.) Self exalting ones; Those who are haughty.
'Aaliyatun (act. pic. f sing.) High; Lofty.
'Ulaa (elative f. plu.) Lofty ones.
'Ulyaa (elative f. sing.) Supermost; Prevailing.
'Uluwwan (v. n. acc.) Great height; Overbearing.
'Aliiyyun (act. 2nd. pic.) The highest one. One of the names of Allah.
A'laa (m. sing. elative.) The great.
Al-A'laa The most high. One of the names of Allah.
A'launa (m. plu.) Overcoming ones; Triumphant.
'Illiyuuna / 'Illiyyiina (acc./ nom.) The highest of the places; Register of those enjoying the most exalted ranks. Its sing. is`Illiyyatun.
Muta'aal (ap-der. vb. VIII) Exalted.
Ta'aalau (prt. m. plu.) You come.
Ta'aalain (prt. f. plu.) You women come.

ala vb. (1)
perf. act. 177, 2391, 284
impf. act. 174, 2731, 4419
n.vb. 174, 1743, 2714, 2883
pcple. act. 1083, 1182, 1574, 2346, 3875, 4431, 6922, 7621, 8810

aliy n.m. (f. ula, comp. a'la) 2255, 3139, 434, 940, 1660, 1950, 1957, 204, 2068, 2075, 2262, 3027, 3130, 3423, 378, 3869, 4012, 424, 4251, 434, 4735, 537, 7924, 871, 9220

illiyun n. 8318, 8319

ta'ala vb. (6)
perf. act. 6100, 7190, 1018, 161, 163, 1743, 20114, 2392, 23116, 2763, 2868, 3040, 3967, 723
impv. 361, 364, 3167, 461, 5104, 6151, 3328, 635
pcple. act. 139

ista'ala vb. (10) perf. act. 2064

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 432, 433 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=elw

imrankhawaja

Still cant get over this picture i showed yesterday

like what?

explain it please so that i understand what is whatsoever you did not get over?

The_Sardar

like what?

explain it please so that i understand what is whatsoever you did not get over?

Its better if i show you why https//scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19424284_10209442930254605_5371361913832599540_n.jpg?oh=a449942d890e95c0b166a54766d355d8&oe=59C85468

imrankhawaja

i read it , i did not find anything that i cant get over?

it appears to me the evolution of word "God" and the concepts related with that word..

same word khuda in persian , bhagwan in hindi, eshwar in sanskrit, in urdu/punjabi same word usage is rabba/mola/khudaya

while in arabic Allah is used
and quranic lisan used Allah as the proper addresse of the message..

in english the word God is the interpretation of Allah as well as translation of a diety who is supreme being

now keeping in this mind then read this again

there is no (diety)god
except Allah/God/eshwar/rabb/khuda

(note if somebody claim himself Allah and his name is Allah too it does not make him real Allah who deserve the serving)

same like raheem, rauf , rahman are names for general public but does they really raheem rauf and rehman.. even some of them are criminals lol..

let me know if thats what you are looking , the picture will not help if you will not share what you are looking for?

interesting thing about this word KHUDA it was also a name of a person or diety who believed as the fire God of persian people .. and some of muslim scholars are against using this word khuda for God..

God bless you

The_Sardar

i read it , i did not find anything that i cant get over?

it appears to me the evolution of word "God" and the concepts related with that word..

same word khuda in persian , bhagwan in hindi, eshwar in sanskrit, in urdu/punjabi same word usage is rabba/mola/khudaya

while in arabic Allah is used
and quranic lisan used Allah as the proper addresse of the message..

in english the word God is the interpretation of Allah as well as translation of a diety who is supreme being

now keeping in this mind then read this again

there is no (diety)god
except Allah/God/eshwar/rabb/khuda

(note if somebody claim himself Allah and his name is Allah too it does not make him real Allah who deserve the serving)

same like raheem, rauf , rahman are names for general public but does they really raheem rauf and rehman.. even some of them are criminals lol..

let me know if thats what you are looking , the picture will not help if you will not share what you are looking for?

interesting thing about this word KHUDA it was also a name of a person or diety who believed as the fire God of persian people .. and some of muslim scholars are against using this word khuda for God..

God bless you

Hmm.. this makes me think about, as i said about in first page i do not agree with this quranist because our minds cannot comprehend the true nature of Allah/God (SWT). Thank you human brother Imran this has cleared some things. I hope you & i are not wrong on this matter. May the Divine Infinite Creator (SWT) bless you & your family.

virginia

https//scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19424284_10209442930254605_5371361913832599540_n.jpg?oh=a449942d890e95c0b166a54766d355d8&oe=59C85468

Peace all,

I haven?t read all the posts here, but please let me please add my poor acumen hoping it will help brother The Sardar with his problem about the origins of "god" and "deus".

Mr. Fiske published his work in 1886, and since then the Indoeuropean and Proto Indoeuropean reconstruction project has gone through a long way and has developed immensely.

There is a proto Indo-European root

?dh
Inner Light and Meditation

Once the Indo-Europeans had used the consonant d, symbol of light, to denote the divine (divya) and god (deva), they then used the d to mean ?to bear light ? within the human soul and they consequently formed the root dh ?to think in contemplation? or ?contemplative thinking?.

From dh came the word dhti ?devotion?, ?prayer? or ?meditation?, which, in Latin, corresponds to the word fides ?faith? ?

(Please, note that the development of indoeuropean dh > latin f is very common.

From "Comparative etymological Dictionary of classical Indo-European languages Indo-European - Sanskrit - Greek - Latin", Rendich Franco, p. 88 (2014)

From this, the root for Greek theos (&#962 and latin deus have been recognised

dyeu-

To shine (and in many derivatives, "sky, heaven, god&quot. Zero-grades *dyu and *diw.
Derivatives include Tuesday, divine, jovial, Jupiter, diary, dismal, journey, and psychedelic.

Basic form *dyeu, Jove, the name of the god of the bright sky, head of the Indo-European pantheon.
Jove, jovial; apojove, perijove, Sangiovese, from Latin Iovis, Jupiter, or Iov, stem of Iuppiter, Jupiter.
July, from Latin Ilius, "descended from Jupiter" (name of a Roman gens), from derivative *iou-il.
Vocative compound *dyeu-pter, "O father Jove" (*pter, father; see pter-). Jupiter, from Latin Iuppiter, Ipiter, head of the Roman pantheon.
Dione, Zeus; dianthus, Dioscuri, from Greek Zeus (genitive Dios), Zeus.
Noun *deiwos, god, formed by e-insertion to the zero-grade *diw and suffixation of (accented) -o.
Tiu, Tuesday, from Old English Tw (genitive Twes), god of war and sky;
Tyr, from Old Norse Tr, sky god. Both a and b from Germanic *Twaz.
deism, deity, joss; adieu, adios, deific, deus ex machina, from Latin deus, god.
diva, divine, from Latin dvus, divine, god.
Dis, Dives, from Latin dves, rich (< "fortunate, blessed, divine&quot.
Suffixed zero-grade form *diw-yo, heavenly. Diana, from Latin Dina, moon goddess.
deva, Devi; deodar, Devanagari, from Sanskrit deva, god, and deva, divine.
Asmodeus, from Avestan dauua, spirit, demon.
Variant *dy (< *dye&#8209 dial, diary, diet2, dismal, diurnal, journal, journey; adjourn, ajour?, circadian, meridian, postmeridian, quotidian, sojourn, from Latin dis, day.
Variant *dei. psychedelic, adelgid, from Greek dlos (< *deyalos), clear.

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR031900

And also the Germanic Gott and English God

gheu(&#601-
To call, invoke. Oldest form *gheu(h2/3), becoming *gheu(h2/3) in centum languages. Suffixed zero-grade form *ghu-to, "the invoked," god.

god, from Old English god, god;
giddy, from Old English gydig, gidig, possessed, insane, from Germanic *gud-iga, possessed by a god;
g?tterd?mmerung, from Old High German got, god. a-c all from Germanic *gudam, god.

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR031900

This root gheu(&#601- is closely related to the root *ged-

*ged-
to join, to unite
Lith. guodas, Ltv. gods, Eng. gd/good, Gm. guot/gut, Goth. g?s; gds, ON g?r, Skr. (gadhya), OCS god, Russ. (god), Polish gody, Toch. ktk/ktk

from https//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/AppendixList_of_Proto-Indo-European_roots/g%CA%B0

imrankhawaja

Hmm.. this makes me think about, as i said about in first page i do not agree with this quranist because our minds cannot comprehend the true nature of Allah/God (SWT). Thank you human brother Imran this has cleared some things. I hope you & i are not wrong on this matter. May the Divine Infinite Creator (SWT) bless you & your family.

handshake

God bless you too and your family my brother..

The_Sardar

Peace all,

I haven?t read all the posts here, but please let me please add my poor acumen hoping it will help brother The Sardar with his problem about the origins of "god" and "deus".

Mr. Fiske published his work in 1886, and since then the Indoeuropean and Proto Indoeuropean reconstruction project has gone through a long way and has developed immensely.

There is a proto Indo-European root

(Please, note that the development of indoeuropean dh > latin f is very common.

From "Comparative etymological Dictionary of classical Indo-European languages Indo-European - Sanskrit - Greek - Latin", Rendich Franco, p. 88 (2014)

From this, the root for Greek theos (&#962 and latin deus have been recognised

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR031900

And also the Germanic Gott and English God

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR031900

This root gheu(&#601- is closely related to the root *ged-
from https//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/AppendixList_of_Proto-Indo-European_roots/g%CA%B0

Wow now thats interesting! if you got more please keep them coming.

amin

Peace,

The idea of worshipping is very old, worship involves praising/remembering, people do this for anything that are beneficent to them, this includes, the rains, air, water oceans, the sun, the moon etc... they focus on them and this worshiping evolved into a single entity that has power over everything. I will try to explain some of Gods here in India.

In the religion of Hinduism there are different Gods, they believe in the goodness of the existing natural forces and consider theres a power behind those and worship. Worshipping is natural instinct learnt through ages of understanding the goodness behind those objects and to retain the benefits they are getting.

Their gods are many but the important ones as i know are
Siva the transformer or plainly one who causes changes/destruction.
Shakthi the Goddess and the strength behind everything... if Siva responsible for changes, shakthi responsible for stability... they are considered as primordial both Husband and wife, Two in one, and there are multiple stories to understand the nature of these two.
Siva and Shakthi, has two sons named Kantha/kumara and Vinayaga (elephant headed god) this again depicts an interesting two contrasting requirements of humans, one strength/adversity and another knowledge/wealth/abundance.
Rituals plays an important role to get the benefits of these Gods.

Another sect within the current Hindusim is the worship of Vishnu/Krishna the primordial God and the god who takes avatar in human form to help and teach people. The stories of this avatar and the characters involved in these stories form the main teachings.

These Gods and worshiping them were not practiced or taught overnight by some prophets, they are age old way of realizing of what those people need and the practices to focus on getting and retaining those needs. naturally a lot of superstitions too are involved in their rituals.

Then there was a parallel development of believing in teachers or prophets and in the powers one get by practicing certain ways. The faiths of Jainism , Buddhism and some more similar subsects comes into this. Jains worship their theerthankars/noble ones who reached heaven, if worshiped and followed will lead us to the same place, they consider this life as a karmic balance and one will get rebirth until reaching the stage of nobility and ultimately heaven and this stage they called as Godliness and everyone can reach that by following the teaching of those prophet. Buddhism is also a subset of this, where Buddha a single person and his teachings becomes the object of worship for many.

Then came Chirstianity and then Islam as we know well about the concepts of God in these religions.

Just given the way i understood things, not to demean or praise some.

virginia

Wow now thats interesting! if you got more please keep them coming.

Peace The Sardar

I am not versed in the Germanic branch of Indoeuropean at all so i prefered to copy paste you the best synopsis I got from what I've being reading about the origins of the English word "god". In fact, this is the most accepted theory

Oxford English Dictionary

"god (gd). Also 3-4 godd. [Com. Teut. OE. god (masc. in sing.; pl. godu, godo neut., godas masc.) corresponds to OFris., OS., Du. god masc., OHG. got, cot (MHG. got, mod.Ger. gott) masc., ON. go?, gu? neut. and masc., pl. go?, gu? neut. (later Icel. pl. gu?ir masc.; Sw., Da. gud), Goth. gu?(masc. in sing.; pl. gu?a, guda neut.). The Goth. and ON. words always follow the neuter declension, though when used in the Christian sense they are syntactically masc. The OTeut. type is therefore *guom neut., the adoption of the masculine concord being presumably due to the Christian use of the word. The neuter sb., in its original heathen use, would answer rather to L. numen than to L. deus. Another approximate equivalent of deus in OTeut. was *ansu-z (Goth. in latinized pl. form anses, ON. ss, OE. ?s- in personal names, ?sa genit. pl.); but this seems to have been applied only to the higher deities of the native pantheon, never to foreign gods; and it never came into Christian use.

The ulterior etymology is disputed. Apart from the unlikely hypothesis of adoption from some foreign tongue, the OTeut. *gubom implies as its pre-Teut. type either *ghudho-m or *ghut?-m. The former does not appear to admit of explanation; but the latter would represent the neut. of the passive pple. of a root *gheu-. There are two Aryan roots of the required form (both *glheu, with palatal aspirate) one meaning ?to invoke? (Skr. h&#363, the other ?to pour, to offer sacrifice? (Skr. hu, Gr. , OE. y?otan YETE v.). Hence *glhut?-m has been variously interpreted as ?what is invoked? (cf. Skr. puru-hta ?much-invoked?, an epithet of Indra) and as ?what is worshipped by sacrifice? (cf. Skr. hut?, which occurs in the sense ?sacrificed to? as well as in that of ?offered in sacrifice?). Either of these conjectures is fairly plausible, as they both yield a sense practically coincident with the most obvious definition deducible from the actual use of the word, ?an object of worship?.

Some scholars, accepting the derivation from the root *glheu- to pour, have supposed the etymological sense to be ?molten image? (= Gr. &#957, but the assumed development of meaning seems very unlikely.

From the Oxford English Dictionary.

I dont know very much about the particular stem, but I think that it is obvious why gheu(&#601? (invoke, call) and other root *ged- (unite, join) come from the same seme since when you ?call?, people get ?united? and ?joined? and ?gathered?. This *ged- also became ?gut? in German and ?good? in English. You still use it in the English words "gather" or "together".

In any case, I could only give a proper linguistic approach myself about the Greek "theos" and latin "deus", but I think your issue is about the English "god".

Also you must know there are other approaches which reject the above widely accepted etymology ( check http//search.proquest.com/openview/168623f5623c2cb08baa85e718377752/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=1817105 ), although personally I dont see any problem in the acceptance of no laryngeal development.

Note Proto Indoeuropean is a family of languages that consists on more than 100 languages (from German and Latin to Sanskrit or Armenian). These languages are supposed to come from a language (Indieuropean) talked around 4500 BC in Central Asia and spread until Europe in several migration waves. Those people had several names but the general one is Aryans. Take into account that the PIE reconstruction project is not only a project held by linguistics, it is a huge attempt that counts on genetics, archaeology, anthropology and geology)

The_Sardar

Peace The Sardar

I am not versed in the Germanic branch of Indoeuropean at all so i prefered to copy paste you the best synopsis I got from what I've being reading about the origins of the English word "god". In fact, this is the most accepted theory

From the Oxford English Dictionary.

I dont know very much about the particular stem, but I think that it is obvious why gheu(&#601? (invoke, call) and other root *ged- (unite, join) come from the same seme since when you ?call?, people get ?united? and ?joined? and ?gathered?. This *ged- also became ?gut? in German and ?good? in English. You still use it in the English words "gather" or "together".

In any case, I could only give a proper linguistic approach myself about the Greek "theos" and latin "deus", but I think your issue is about the English "god".

Also you must know there are other approaches which reject the above widely accepted etymology ( check http//search.proquest.com/openview/168623f5623c2cb08baa85e718377752/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=1817105 ), although personally I dont see any problem in the acceptance of no laryngeal development.

Note Proto Indoeuropean is a family of languages that consists on more than 100 languages (from German and Latin to Sanskrit or Armenian). These languages are supposed to come from a language (Indieuropean) talked around 4500 BC in Central Asia and spread until Europe in several migration waves. Those people had several names but the general one is Aryans. Take into account that the PIE reconstruction project is not only a project held by linguistics, it is a huge attempt that counts on genetics, archaeology, anthropology and geology)

Forgive me brother of mankind Aries but im bit lost in this explaination, apoligizes if im ignorant (if i say it correctly) because unfortunatley im no linguist expert.

The_Sardar

Im not quite sure what this means. Our Lord is above all so Allah (SWT) does not a gender, The Gracious created the genders.

Red Meant to say Our Lord is above all so Allah (SWT) does not need a gender.

The_Sardar

Salamun Aleykum everyone. It seems i crossed paths with the same quranist in a different facebook group who is against hadiths.

He started a disscussion, he said

No where in Qur'an does Allah refer to himself by the name/title g-o-d.
No where in the Taurat does Allah refer to Himself by the name/title g-o-d.
g-o-d is a heathen deity, not to be associated with Allah.

The he posted 2 pictures, one is who we are familiar with

https//scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19990546_10209600436432161_7902989414026853755_n.jpg?oh=ae4d99dd7c7f3577c933e85063713249&oe=5A08E538

Then second and last

https//scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19260682_10209600438872222_7977978248006816530_n.jpg?oh=0581c9306c00dd5665e644750b42c425&oe=59CB13C3

Then people started to respond him

One of them said

The Most Wise will be the judge in the hereafter..

By the way, if the word "Allah" will be translated into English, it becomes "God"

Then the quranist responded Allah" is substituted with "G-d", not translated.

Then another of the critics said My opinion
Cant really see the problem if anyone uses God to describe The Almighty as it is commonly used. Am sure Allah Swt knows what a person means and will judge them accordingly. Nobody uses the word for any other purpose for there to be a clash with any other deities mentioned in manmade lexicons.

As the word is used in english and even the first line of the lexicon confirms it is same word in old and new english then the English definition in the English dictionary would be adequate.
Then he posted a picture

https//scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19961317_1871558613163171_311479923668105622_n.jpg?oh=d1be7575703ec2099b33256886e150c9&oe=5A075292

The quranist responded Notice in the definition you posted it says, "the g-d of Islam", but Qur'an says, Allah is Rabb of the all the WORLDS. You completely ignored the much deeper etymology I posted. I find it interesting that Muhammad's name is not "translated". It appears that many Muslims use "g-d" in order to get validation from the west.

Then another critic said No i think ur wrong god by english translation means the one supreme being

Then lastly quranist said "g-d" passed into English from German, after the German people converted to Christianity. In their native religion "G-d" was the German's ancestral deity Gudan (Odin, Wodin). The Germans replaced YHWH (Allah) of Taurat, the Rabb of Adam, Nuh, the family of Ibrahim, and the family of Imran (333), with g-d, the deified ancestors of the German/Teutonic people, Geats, Goths, etc.

The Christians have been fooled into serving a pagan deity, and Muslims seeking the acceptance of Christians, are blindly following them down the crooked path.

1124, Bismillah

And there is none like unto Him.

2120, Bismillah

And never will be pleased with you the Jews and the Christians until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, (the) Guidance (of) Allah, it (is) the Guidance." And if you follow their desires after what has come to you of the knowledge, not for you from Allah any protector and not any helper.

This discussion took place in The Quran Only - No hadiths facebook group. If you wanna check this debate out then go ahead.

https//www.facebook.com/groups/1235348423158333/