AlFathia

bkanwar2

Deity for worship? I am sorry if i lost you but where is did you get Deity & Worship together?

Please share your understanding of word worship? Also what do you understand by word god?

The_Sardar

Please share your understanding of word worship? Also what do you understand by word god?

I don't exactly have a understanding of worship. If you are referring to the word ibadat then to me it's to serve or serving through good & righteous deeds. And as for word God i am very skeptical of the object of worship. I learned that the proto-indoeuropean root word of God has some dispute.

A brother/sister of ours (Aries) made a research of the word God
Check here

dh
Inner Light and Meditation

Once the Indo-Europeans had used the consonant d, symbol of light, to denote the divine (divya) and god (deva), they then used the d to mean to bear light within the human soul and they consequently formed the root dh to think in contemplation or contemplative thinking.

From dh came the word dhti devotion, prayer or meditation, which, in Latin, corresponds to the word fides faith

(Please, note that the development of indoeuropean dh > latin f is very common.

From "Comparative etymological Dictionary of classical Indo-European languages Indo-European - Sanskrit - Greek - Latin", Rendich Franco, p. 88 (2014)

From this, the root for Greek theos (&#962 and latin deus have been recognised

dyeu-

To shine (and in many derivatives, "sky, heaven, god&quot. Zero-grades *dyu and *diw.
Derivatives include Tuesday, divine, jovial, Jupiter, diary, dismal, journey, and psychedelic.

Basic form *dyeu, Jove, the name of the god of the bright sky, head of the Indo-European pantheon.
Jove, jovial; apojove, perijove, Sangiovese, from Latin Iovis, Jupiter, or Iov, stem of Iuppiter, Jupiter.
July, from Latin Ilius, "descended from Jupiter" (name of a Roman gens), from derivative *iou-il.
Vocative compound *dyeu-pter, "O father Jove" (*pter, father; see pter-). Jupiter, from Latin Iuppiter, Ipiter, head of the Roman pantheon.
Dione, Zeus; dianthus, Dioscuri, from Greek Zeus (genitive Dios), Zeus.
Noun *deiwos, god, formed by e-insertion to the zero-grade *diw and suffixation of (accented) -o.
Tiu, Tuesday, from Old English Tw (genitive Twes), god of war and sky;
Tyr, from Old Norse Tr, sky god. Both a and b from Germanic *Twaz.
deism, deity, joss; adieu, adios, deific, deus ex machina, from Latin deus, god.
diva, divine, from Latin dvus, divine, god.
Dis, Dives, from Latin dves, rich (< "fortunate, blessed, divine&quot.
Suffixed zero-grade form *diw-yo, heavenly. Diana, from Latin Dina, moon goddess.
deva, Devi; deodar, Devanagari, from Sanskrit deva, god, and deva, divine.
Asmodeus, from Avestan dauua, spirit, demon.
Variant *dy (< *dye&#8209 dial, diary, diet2, dismal, diurnal, journal, journey; adjourn, ajour?, circadian, meridian, postmeridian, quotidian, sojourn, from Latin dis, day.
Variant *dei. psychedelic, adelgid, from Greek dlos (< *deyalos), clear.

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR017200

And also the Germanic Gott and English God

Quote

gheu(&#601-
To call, invoke. Oldest form *gheu(h2/3), becoming *gheu(h2/3) in centum languages. Suffixed zero-grade form *ghu-to, "the invoked," god.

god, from Old English god, god;
giddy, from Old English gydig, gidig, possessed, insane, from Germanic *gud-iga, possessed by a god;
g?tterd?mmerung, from Old High German got, god. a-c all from Germanic *gudam, god.

From https//www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#IR031900

This root gheu(&#601- is closely related to the root *ged-

*ged-
to join, to unite
Lith. guodas, Ltv. gods, Eng. gd/good, Gm. guot/gut, Goth. g?s; gds, ON g?r, Skr. (gadhya), OCS god, Russ. (god), Polish gody, Toch. ktk/ktk

from https//en.wiktionary.org/.../AppendixList_of.../g%CA%B0

Oxford English Dictionary

"god (gd). Also 3-4 godd. [Com. Teut. OE. god (masc. in sing.; pl. godu, godo neut., godas masc.) corresponds to OFris., OS., Du. god masc., OHG. got, cot (MHG. got, mod.Ger. gott) masc., ON. go?, gu? neut. and masc., pl. go?, gu? neut. (later Icel. pl. gu?ir masc.; Sw., Da. gud), Goth. gu?(masc. in sing.; pl. gu?a, guda neut.). The Goth. and ON. words always follow the neuter declension, though when used in the Christian sense they are syntactically masc. The OTeut. type is therefore *guom neut., the adoption of the masculine concord being presumably due to the Christian use of the word. The neuter sb., in its original heathen use, would answer rather to L. numen than to L. deus. Another approximate equivalent of deus in OTeut. was *ansu-z (Goth. in latinized pl. form anses, ON. ss, OE. ?s- in personal names, ?sa genit. pl.); but this seems to have been applied only to the higher deities of the native pantheon, never to foreign gods; and it never came into Christian use.

The ulterior etymology is disputed. Apart from the unlikely hypothesis of adoption from some foreign tongue, the OTeut. *gubom implies as its pre-Teut. type either *ghudho-m or *ghut?-m. The former does not appear to admit of explanation; but the latter would represent the neut. of the passive pple. of a root *gheu-. There are two Aryan roots of the required form (both *glheu, with palatal aspirate) one meaning to invoke (Skr. h&#363, the other to pour, to offer sacrifice (Skr. hu, Gr. , OE. y?otan YETE v.). Hence *glhut?-m has been variously interpreted as what is invoked (cf. Skr. puru-hta much-invoked, an epithet of Indra) and as what is worshipped by sacrifice (cf. Skr. hut?, which occurs in the sense sacrificed to as well as in that of offered in sacrifice&#8217. Either of these conjectures is fairly plausible, as they both yield a sense practically coincident with the most obvious definition deducible from the actual use of the word, an object of worship.

Some scholars, accepting the derivation from the root *glheu- to pour, have supposed the etymological sense to be molten image Gr. &#957, but the assumed development of meaning seems very unlikely.

From the Oxford English Dictionary.

I dont know very much about the particular stem, but I think that it is obvious why gheu(&#601 (invoke, call) and other root *ged- (unite, join) come from the same seme since when you call, people get united and joined and gathered. This *ged- also became gut in German and good in English. You still use it in the English words "gather" or "together".

In any case, I could only give a proper linguistic approach myself about the Greek "theos" and latin "deus", but I think your issue is about the English "god".

Also you must know there are other approaches which reject the above widely accepted etymology ( check http//search.proquest.com/.../168623f5623c2cb08baa8.../1... ), although personally I dont see any problem in the acceptance of no laryngeal development.

Note Proto Indoeuropean is a family of languages that consists on more than 100 languages (from German and Latin to Sanskrit or Armenian). These languages are supposed to come from a language (Indieuropean) talked around 4500 BC in Central Asia and spread until Europe in several migration waves. Those people had several names but the general one is Aryans. Take into account that the PIE reconstruction project is not only a project held by linguistics, it is a huge attempt that counts on genetics, archaeology, anthropology and geology)

bkanwar2

I don't exactly have a understanding of worship. If you are referring to the word ibadat then to me it's to serve or serving through good & righteous deeds. And as for word God i am very skeptical of the object of worship. I learned that the proto-indoeuropean root word of God has some dispute.

A brother/sister of ours (Aries) made a research of the word God
Check here

Please explain further in red what do you mean? Try defining concept god in your words. At best in one or two sentences. Anything that can not be defined this way is not a real concept.

The_Sardar

Please explain further in red what do you mean? Try defining concept god in your words. At best in one or two sentences. Anything that can not be defined this way is not a real concept.

I'm gonna try but bear with me because i am not good at explaining. Serving requires actions and i have seen a lot of verses in Al-Quran about justice & righteousness

4135
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookoonoo qawwameena bialqisti shuhadaalillahi walaw AAala anfusikum awi alwalidayniwaal-aqrabeena in yakun ghaniyyan aw faqeeran faAllahuawla bihima fala tattabiAAoo alhawaan taAAdiloo wa-in talwoo aw tuAAridoo fa-inna Allahakana bima taAAmaloona khabeeran
O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow desire into being unjust. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.

Qaf-Siin-Tay ( &#1591 = to swerve from justice, act or deal unjustly/wrongfully. qasuta - to act justly. qist - justice, equity. qasit - one who acts unjustly/unrighteously. aqsatu - more just. aqsata (vb. 4) - to be just. muqsitun - one who observes justice.

qasata vb. (1) pcple. act. 7214, 7215

aqsat n.m. 2282, 335

qist n.m. 318, 321, 4127, 4125, 58, 542, 6152, 729, 104, 1047, 1054, 1185, 2147, 559, 5725

aqsata vb. (4)
impf. act. 43, 608
impv. 499
pcple. act. 542, 499, 608

LL, V7, p 50, 51 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=qsT

And as for concept of God, well i am not good at explaining but he is not just a god, He is the one God who is The Creator of the heavens & the earth like in 5924

5924

Huwa Allahu alkhaliqu albari-oalmusawwiru lahu al-asmao alhusnayusabbihu lahu ma fee alssamawatiwaal-ardi wahuwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu
He is God; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Noble, the Wise.

I hope this answer your question. To me Allah or God or Dios or whatever language you are using, use it to refer to The Creator. Salamun Aleykum/Peace be upon you.

bkanwar2

Why do you need to keep referring to a scripture? Why can't you use your own understanding to describe concepts you have? Please just enumerate numerically 1, 2, ... the good and righteous deeds that you understand and perform every day.

For god, just say "it is creator" or "it is I worship five times a day or for whom I fast" or "for whom I will kill anybody". It is only if we can get our concepts crystal clear our deeds will become correct.

The_Sardar

Why do you need to keep referring to a scripture? Why can't you use your own understanding to describe concepts you have? Please just enumerate numerically 1, 2, ... the good and righteous deeds that you understand and perform every day.

For god, just say "it is creator" or "it is I worship five times a day or for whom I fast" or "for whom I will kill anybody". It is only if we can get our concepts crystal clear our deeds will become correct.

But why can't i base my concepts from the Quran? There is nothing wrong with that. Bold part is what i am trying to say.

The_Sardar

Please just enumerate numerically 1, 2, ... the good and righteous deeds that you understand and perform every day.

Well i'll try.l 1 I try to help the poor and the needy. 2 I am trying be good towards my family & friends. I hope that answer your question.

bkanwar2

But why can't i base my concepts from the Quran? There is nothing wrong with that. Bold part is what i am trying to say.

How certain are you about the concepts currently presented in Quran as the correct concepts? Pleas share your basis for such a certainty?

bkanwar2

Well i'll try.l 1 I try to help the poor and the needy. 2 I am trying be good towards my family & friends. I hope that answer your question.

How do you help needy and poor? What do you mean by good towards family? Do you think one needs a divine scripture to be good towards ones family?

The_Sardar

How certain are you about the concepts currently presented in Quran as the correct concepts? Pleas share your basis for such a certainty?

Well i checked the root words of alkhaliq, albari and almusawwir and here they are

Kh-Lam-Qaf = To measure or proportion a thing, to form or make according to proper measure, bring into existence according to a certain measure, originate or produce after a pattern or model which one has devised, bring into existence from a state of non-existence (create out of nothing), to fabricate or forge a speech or saying, to make a thing equitable or even, make a thing smooth, to be probable or likely to happen (or likely to be or happen, or to have happened or been), act towards someone according to that person's nature, wear out a thing and make it old, to be fit/ competent/ suitable/ proper, to be complete or perfect in respect of make or proportion, have an innate/natural disposition/temperament/quality.

khalaqa vb. (1)
perf. act. 221, 229, 2228, 359, 3191, 41, 41, 518, 61, 62, 673, 694, 6100, 6101, 711, 712, 712, 754, 7181, 7185, 7189, 936, 103, 105, 106, 117, 11119, 1316, 1419, 1432, 1526, 1527, 1533, 1585, 163, 164, 165, 1648, 1670, 1681, 1761, 1770, 1799, 1837, 1848, 199, 1967, 204, 2055, 2116, 2133, 225, 2312, 2314, 2314, 2314, 2317, 2391, 23115, 2445, 252, 2549, 2554, 2559, 2678, 26166, 26184, 2760, 2944, 2961, 308, 3020, 3021, 3040, 3054, 3110, 3111, 3125, 324, 327, 3511, 3540, 3636, 3642, 3671, 3677, 3681, 3711, 3711, 3796, 37150, 3827, 3875, 3876, 3876, 395, 396, 3938, 4067, 419, 4115, 4121, 4137, 439, 439, 4312, 4387, 4438, 4439, 4522, 463, 464, 4633, 4913, 5016, 5038, 5149, 5156, 5236, 5345, 5449, 553, 5514, 5515, 5657, 574, 642, 643, 6512, 672, 673, 6714, 7039, 7114, 7115, 7411, 7538, 762, 7628, 788, 8018, 8019, 827, 872, 904, 923, 954, 961, 962, 1132
impf. act. 347, 349, 517, 5110, 7191, 168, 1617, 1617, 1620, 1799, 2273, 2445, 253, 2868, 2917, 3054, 3681, 394, 396, 4249, 4316, 5659, 7720
perf. pass. 428, 2137, 5235, 7019, 865, 866, 8817
impf. pass. 7191, 1620, 253, 898
n.vb. 2164, 3190, 3191, 4119, 754, 104, 1034, 1034, 135, 1316, 1316, 1419, 1749, 1751, 1798, 1851, 1851, 2050, 21104, 2314, 2317, 2764, 2919, 2920, 3011, 3022, 3027, 3030, 3111, 3128, 327, 3210, 347, 351, 3516, 3678, 3679, 396, 396, 4057, 4057, 4229, 4319, 454, 4633, 5015, 5015, 673,

769, 3668, 3711, 7927

pcple. act. 6102, 13!6, 1528, 23!4, 353, 37125, 3871, 3962, 4062, 5235, 5659, 5924

khalaq n.m. 2102, 2200, 377, 969, 969, 969

khallaq n.m. 1586, 3681

khuluq n.m. 26137, 684

khallaqa vb. (2) pcple. pass. f. 225, 225

ikhtalaqa vb. ( n.vb. 387

LL, V2, p 435, 436, 437, 438, 439 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=xlq

Ba-Ra-Alif = became/was clear/free of a thing, to quit it, become irresponsible for it, guiltless of it, remove oneself from a thing, kept far or aloof (e.g. from unclean things), state of freedom/immunity/security/safety.
Convalescent/sound/healthy, cure/heal, recover/restore.
Create/produce, former/fashioner.
He compounded or made a compromise with him for their mutual separation.
Mankind/creation/beings/things that are created.

bara'a (vb. I)
impf. act. 5722
pcple. act. 254, 254, 5924

bariyah n.f. 986, 987

bara n.m. 4326, 604

bara'ah n.f. 91, 5443

bari n.m. 4112, 619, 678, 848, 93, 1041, 1041, 1135, 1154, 26216, 5916

barra'a (vb. II)
perf. act. 3369
impf. act. 1253
pcple. pass. 2426

abra'a (vb. IV) impf. act. 349, 5110

tabarra'a (vb. V)
perf. act. 2166, 2167, 9114, 2863
impf. act. 2167

LL, V1, p 215, 216 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=bra

Sad-Waw-Ra = to shape/form, fashion mark, picture, adorn, prepare, make.

sara vb. (1) impv. 2260

sur n.m. 673, 1899, 20102, 23101, 2787, 3651, 3968, 5020, 6913, 7818

surah n.f. (pl. suwar) 4064, 643, 828

sawwara vb. (2)
perf. act. 711, 4064, 643
impf. act. 36
pcple. act. 5924

LL, V4, p 468, 469 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=SWR

The_Sardar

How do you help needy and poor? What do you mean by good towards family? Do you think one needs a divine scripture to be good towards ones family?

I try to give money & food to the poor. I am helping out their issues from time to time. And lastly The Quran motivates me greatly to do good. Although there are other ways but The Quran has the most effect.

The_Sardar

I feel like i am being interviewed. I hope we are not going off-topic and feel like i stole the debate from you (bkanwar2) & Manny_E.

bkanwar2

I try to give money & food to the poor. I am helping out their issues from time to time. And lastly The Quran motivates me greatly to do good. Although there are other ways but The Quran has the most effect.

So anybody who doesn't follow Quran is not good to his family? He doesn't help any one in need? Likely has no motivation without Quran to any of these deed, correct.

The_Sardar

So anybody who doesn't follow Quran is not good to his family? He doesn't help any one in need? Likely has no motivation without Quran to any of these deed, correct.

I never said that. I was referring to myself. I am still studying the Quran.

bkanwar2

I feel like i am being interviewed. I hope we are not going off-topic and feel like i stole the debate from you (bkanwar2) & Manny_E.

I am sorry you are feeling this way. I thought you are here to understand Quran? But it seems like you believe that you know all of it already and are here only to get your beliefs reasserted. We can stop this discussion if you feel uncomfortable or don't like it. Just don't respond. Just like when Manny and Mazhar had no answers they stopped.

The_Sardar

I am sorry you are feeling this way. I thought you are here to understand Quran? But it seems like you believe that you know all of it already and are here only to get your beliefs reasserted. We can stop this discussion if you feel uncomfortable or don't like it. Just don't respond. Just like when Manny and Mazhar had no answers they stopped.

It's alright it's nothing wrong with that, i was just a bit nervous. I am here to understand from the Quran but i am not an expert student. And there is no need for assuming that stopped talking doesn't always mean they have no answers. They could be busy with real life and may end up forgetting the debate.

bkanwar2

No, there's no word for worship in the word "allah", it's based on type or kind reference grammar, meaning the AL refers to the being of a person or whatever is attributed.

The closest possible meaning is "the Being One (he/she/it) or speaking of someone's existence.

The knowledge is always evidenced based, otherwise it is just a belief or a mere opinion. Please cite a reference for these meanings for "Al". Thanks.

The_Sardar

The knowledge is always evidenced based, otherwise it is just a belief or a mere opinion. Please cite a reference for these meanings for "Al". Thanks.

Salam he is not here but those this answer your question?

Alif-Lam = The definite article "al". It is equivalent to 'the' in English. In Arabic it is used to give the meaning of Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole and to denote comprehensiveness, that is to say all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades. It is also used to indicate something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is present in the mind of the writer or reader. ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=al

The_Sardar

gives the reference to attribute or kind or kindred of whatever is referenced. It is used before words because it's used to say "like" and it can't prefix proper nouns so in the case of Pharaoh it says and not as the language says "like Pharaoh". No name can be prefixed by , it's against the grammar rules and it also invalidates that would be a proper noun.

My explanation of as "being of someone" (the like of) is basically the best possible translation of the semantics. is carrying as a pronoun, just like in English, the subject's reference within a context and it says "the like of he/she/it or in more sensible English "the being of". The point with Arabic is that the Heh substantiates for example Abraham in the phrase and it's wrong to translate the Heh in English because it only binds what's spoken of to Abraham.

If you add a Ye in the same to make then it is plus and it roughly means in the attribute of (pronoun) and requires a proper linguistic argument.

That sounds very similar to Man of Faith's research of the word Allah or Al-Laheh you call it.

The_Sardar

Oh?

Yeah check out Man of Faith on his research of the word Allah on this forum. You can also check his own forum if you wish to discuss with him. http//iamthatiam.boards.net