Palavers about Qur'aan.

Novice

24

English "you" can refer to second person singular both feminine and masculine; can be referent to two person male or female and can be referent for many people men and women included. But the pronoun in is referent for second person, masculine, singular. It is referent to one unique person.

Unless you determine who is he, you cannot get the addressee. Towards whom Qur'aan was sent is the person addressed by .

You are at liberty to presume whomever you wish to call the addressee.

Yes is the person who was revealed the Quran. That is exactly what I wrote. But that was not my question. Let me quote it again

I hope you can see the difference between pronoun (you) and (He)

You has to be one who is addressed but His abd could be anyone.

Do you think = ?

Novice

A definite noun does not mean "anyone". It means a specific person.

Whoever is referred as becomes a specific person but how can you conclude that it is Prophet Muhammad?

Novice

You avoided this part of my post.

The Quran informs us that it is a guidance for the mankind and is easy to take advice from it. But you appear to believe that every human being has to go to a university to get a degree in language sciences to get guidance from the Quran.

5417

5422

5432

5440

I am waiting for your response brother.

Mazhar

Whoever is referred as becomes a specific person but how can you conclude that it is Prophet Muhammad?

This is the difference between Passive Reader and Active Reader. I am not reading the translations and exegeses. I am directly and critically reading the original text of Qur'aan.

I emphasize upon people to first learn the art of reading a book. Qur'aan is unique book. It also tells how to comprehend it and how to cross check whether you have correctly understood and translated.

The first claim about the book is that in it there is no vague, ambiguous content. When a reader is blind as to who is being referred, it is either the ambiguity in the book or the reader does not know how to read a book.

Reflect and try to follow this style of reading Qur'aan

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Is it because they do not personally study the Qur?n critically, logically and coherently pursuing its text?

Mazhar

The Quran informs us that it is a guidance for the mankind and is easy to take advice from it. But you appear to believe that every human being has to go to a university to get a degree in language sciences to get guidance from the Quran.

5417

5422

5432

5440

I am waiting for your response brother.

I lament to say that you seem not interested in increasing level of understanding. I am sure you do not even understand that the above Ayahs have a claim in them. You, like many others, seem not to have thought and evaluated the statement as to whether it is true or false.

The evidence is that my Thread is on this subject and above Ayahs which you seem not to have read carefully and critically, though you said you agreed to it. Please read the first page of thread along with the given link; may be you get something in it.

If you open the link you will find

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Thereby, for reason of its universality and permanence, Our Majesty have certainly rendered it (Qur?n) easy, open and facilitator for reading and comprehension by transcribing it in the mother tongue Arabic language of you (Muhammad ).
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The purpose of rendering it facilitator is that people might at their own sincerely comprehend, make their selves enlightened, recall and relate it.

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Know the certain fact We have simplified-rendered the Grand Qur?n easy, open and facilitative for reading, comprehension and saving in memory to recall, take lesson and to relate.
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Thereat, is there one who consciously and purposely saves it in memory, comprehends and recalls to mention-takes lesson and admonition?

Mazhar

After reading the article of thread, please read, selecting from the left pane

How Qur?n was rendered Facilitative for reading.

The statement that Qur?n is rendered facilitative has the value of a claim - to say, without proof or evidence, that something is true. Since the statement is about a book which is meant for reading and comprehending, the statement will be true if the book facilitates the reader both in its reading and comprehension. This is the extent of the statement. If the critical reader finds the statement true to its extent it will obviously highlight the value, quality and importance of the book whereby he will become sincere and reverent for it.

http//haqeeqat.pk/FacilitatorHow.htm

Novice

Brother no need to lament on anything. It is sharing of knowledge and then reflecting critically on it. If you feel uncomfortable by questions then we can discontinue our discussion.

This is the difference between Passive Reader and Active Reader. I am not reading the translations and exegeses. I am directly and critically reading the original text of Qur'aan.

Your claim is that you are reading the original text of Quraan, but my understanding is that you take liberty to add to the original text in your translation.

The first claim about the book is that in it there is no vague, ambiguous content. When a reader is blind as to who is being referred, it is either the ambiguity in the book or the reader does not know how to read a book.

There is no ambiguity involved. The verse is simply saying " glorified is the one who took His abd from masjid-ul-haram to masjid-ul-aqsa one night.

A book is composed of paragraphs and chapters to convey the message. Can we isolate this verse from the rest of paragraph? Or we continue reading it with the next verses?

As far as reflecting on verses is concerned anyone can question the traditional translations as there was no masjid around kaaba or in Palestine when the verses were revealed. Kaaba was under the control of mushrikeen and Palestine was conquered after the death of the prophet.

Novice

I lament to say that you seem not interested in increasing level of understanding. I am sure you do not even understand that the above Ayahs have a claim in them. You, like many others, seem not to have thought and evaluated the statement as to whether it is true or false.

The evidence is that my Thread is on this subject and above Ayahs which you seem not to have read carefully and critically, though you said you agreed to it. Please read the first page of thread along with the given link; may be you get something in it.

If you open the link you will find

http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/019.%20Maryam%20Siddiqa/19.97.gif

Thereby, for reason of its universality and permanence, Our Majesty have certainly rendered it (Qur?n) easy, open and facilitator for reading and comprehension by transcribing it in the mother tongue Arabic language of you (Muhammad ).
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.46b.gif
The purpose of rendering it facilitator is that people might at their own sincerely comprehend, make their selves enlightened, recall and relate it.

http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/054.%20Al%20Qamar/54.17.gif
Know the certain fact We have simplified-rendered the Grand Qur?n easy, open and facilitative for reading, comprehension and saving in memory to recall, take lesson and to relate.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/054.%20Al%20Qamar/54.15a.gif
Thereat, is there one who consciously and purposely saves it in memory, comprehends and recalls to mention-takes lesson and admonition?

As usual you avoided answering the question. The question was

The Quran informs us that it is a guidance for the mankind and is easy to take advice from it. But you appear to believe that every human being has to go to a university to get a degree in language sciences to get guidance from the Quran.

Can a normal common man get guidance from Quraan without getting a degree in language sciences?

Mazhar

As usual you avoided answering the question. The question was
Can a normal common man get guidance from Quraan without getting a degree in language sciences?

I have no degree in language sciences. And more than 90% of the entire population of world has no degree in any language as subject.

My concluding remark in article on Translation

Therefore, the translation of Qur?n is but one directional interpretation. Thereby, it is not necessary that the translator be a linguist. It is also so because translation and interpretation of a book is merely a skill.

http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuran.htm

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 015133 AM
This is the difference between Passive Reader and Active Reader. I am not reading the translations and exegeses. I am directly and critically reading the original text of Qur'aan.

Your claim is that you are reading the original text of Quraan, but my understanding is that you take liberty to add to the original text in your translation.

This may be because either you know not or did not recall the concept which is common in languages

Elisions

It is made explicit at the very outset of the Divine Discourse that Arabic is a pro-drop language. Taking care of elisions in the source text and incorporating it in target language text are important to correctly convey the perception embedded therein. Ellipses at the sentence level is distinguished from other types of omissions by the condition of recoverability. The basic principle of ellipsis is that nothing can be omitted unless it can be recovered. Recoverability is the essential condition put forward by Arab grammarians for ellipsis. Ellipsis is not allowed if there are no indicators to help the addressee to identify the elided elements.

Since Grand Qur?n is for the humanity, its first audience were the people of Mecca and surrounding localities. Further, while reading Grand Qur?n, it must be kept in mind that it was gradually-intermittently revealed to the Messenger who then communicated it to the people of those days. Therefore, while conveying an Ayah?unitary verbal passage wherein some element is elided, it was so because it was already in their knowledge and they were quite familiar about it. Its mentioning would have cost redundancy.

Arabs dislike using larger quantity of words and like to convey voluminous information by employing minimum words. It also reflects that the Arabic language regards its listener and reader as a responsible, attentive and intelligent person who focuses his listening and perception faculties on that which is being stated. Thus the placing of words which could compromise the literary par excellence of the text along with offence to the first listeners, it is elided. The elisions are conspicuous by grammatical structures; and for the readers of later time-frame the semantics of the elided element are also mentioned at another place with repetition of key words in the elliptical sentences.

It will be unfair on the part of the translator; it could even indicate that the translator has directly started translating without firstly having critically read the entire discourse, not to render the ellipses in the target language text because the reader is not aware about the nature and style of ellipses in Arabic. The reader is, however, conversant with the kinds of ellipses in English language which are found in dependent clauses. In Arabic, the ellipses also occur in the independent clauses. Lapse of translator in this regard can affect the semantic value of the original source text; and it can even distort the text, or render it vague.

Therefore, we will render the semantic content of elisions in the target language and will give the reference of Sura and Ayah from where the semantic information is taken by brackets, like . The key to understand ellipses is to always keep in mind that the message is geared to be consonant with the audience's prior knowledge and assumptions.

http//haqeeqat.pk/Word%20by%20Word.htm

Novice

I have no degree in language sciences. And more than 90% of the entire population of world has no degree in any language as subject.

My concluding remark in article on Translation

Therefore, the translation of Qur?n is but one directional interpretation. Thereby, it is not necessary that the translator be a linguist. It is also so because translation and interpretation of a book is merely a skill.

http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuran.htm

Skills cannot be standardized so you are saying that readers of Quraan have the freedom of adding to the text as per their interpretation. We can see why there are so many sects in Islam and who to blame for it.

Novice

Therefore, we will render the semantic content of elisions in the target language and will give the reference of Sura and Ayah from where the semantic information is taken by brackets, like .

171

Please give reference to Sura and Ayah from where you took the semantic information that "His abd" is prophet Muhammad.

The key to understand ellipses is to always keep in mind that the message is geared to be consonant with the audience's prior knowledge and assumptions.

Or did you take "His abd"=prophet Muhammad from the prior knowledge and assumptions.

Novice

Therefore, we will render the semantic content of elisions in the target language and will give the reference of Sura and Ayah from where the semantic information is taken by brackets, like .

The key to understand ellipses is to always keep in mind that the message is geared to be consonant with the audience's prior knowledge and assumptions.

These two statements are so contradictory.

First one takes information from within Quraan to explain ayahs.

Second one takes information from prior knowledge and assumptions of the audience.

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar on Today at 020543 AM
Therefore, we will render the semantic content of elisions in the target language and will give the reference of Sura and Ayah from where the semantic information is taken by brackets, like .

171

Please give reference to Sura and Ayah from where you took the semantic information that "His abd" is prophet Muhammad.

Quote from Mazhar on Today at 020543 AM
The key to understand ellipses is to always keep in mind that the message is geared to be consonant with the audience's prior knowledge and assumptions.

Or did you take "His abd"=prophet Muhammad from the prior knowledge and assumptions.

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Who is this Abd of Allah? Allah says this Abd takes you and me out of the depths of darkness into enlightenment.

What is the name of Abd to whom the Book was sent?

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar on Today at 020543 AM
Therefore, we will render the semantic content of elisions in the target language and will give the reference of Sura and Ayah from where the semantic information is taken by brackets, like .

Quote from Mazhar on Today at 020543 AM
The key to understand ellipses is to always keep in mind that the message is geared to be consonant with the audience's prior knowledge and assumptions.

These two statements are so contradictory.

First one takes information from within Quraan to explain ayahs.

Second one takes information from prior knowledge and assumptions of the audience.

Both things are valid. Pl study how books are written. Please read it

v) Audience of the Book;

One of the most difficult questions for a human author is figuring out "who are your target audience?" Grand Qur?n is unique in this respect also. It explicitly defines and addresses specifically the target audience and those who are the primary readers for the Book. When approaching a text, a reader should try to determine who the author is trying to communicate with. It is necessary because the message is geared to be consonant with the audience's prior knowledge and assumptions. It is the audience in relation to whom will depend the main idea, validation and support, word choice, sentence structure, writing plan - form, writing relationship what tone of voice comes to you as a reader.

http//haqeeqat.pk/Word%20by%20Word.htm

Novice

Both things are valid. Pl study how books are written. Please read it

No brother both things are not valid in the case of Quraan which is a book of guidance for the whole mankind. It claims to provide guidance to everyone approaching it with clean slate. The one approaching it with pre-conceived information will try to get confirmation of what he has already established.

When approaching a text, a reader should try to determine who the author is trying to communicate with. It is necessary because the message is geared to be consonant with the audience's prior knowledge and assumptions. It is the audience in relation to whom will depend the main idea, validation and support, word choice, sentence structure, writing plan - form, writing relationship what tone of voice comes to you as a reader.

Target audience for Quraan is the mankind. So the author is communicating with everyone approaching it.

Mazhar

No brother both things are not valid in the case of Quraan which is a book of guidance for the whole mankind. It claims to provide guidance to everyone approaching it with clean slate. The one approaching it with pre-conceived information will try to get confirmation of what he has already established.

Target audience for Quraan is the mankind. So the author is communicating with everyone approaching it.

The audience is humanity. But did you notice who is addressee in a particular part of the text. Since you have totally closed your mind to let any knowledgeable thing enter therein you keep raising irrelevant things. See the addressees

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Thanks.

Novice

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Who is this Abd of Allah? Allah says this Abd takes you and me out of the depths of darkness into enlightenment.

What is the name of Abd to whom the Book was sent?

Mazhar thanks for quoting these ayahs but these are with reference to the book. Obviously Abd in these ayahs is the one who received the book and as such became the messenger of Allah. Quraan inform us that the messenger of Allah was Muhammad.

4829 .......

Are you assuming that 131 occurrences of the noun "Abd" in Quraan are always used for Muhammad?

( Source http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ebd)

Mazhar

Mazhar thanks for quoting these ayahs but these are with reference to the book. Obviously Abd in these ayahs is the one who received the book and as such became the messenger of Allah. Quraan inform us that the messenger of Allah was Muhammad.

4829 .......

Are you assuming that 131 occurrences of the noun "Abd" in Quraan are always used for Muhammad?

( Source http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ebd)

Did I say this?

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http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00011.%20Bandgi%20Ain%20Ba%20Dal/66.gif 4 times

http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00011.%20Bandgi%20Ain%20Ba%20Dal/48.gif 2 times.

............
Who is Abd in it?

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Novice

The audience is humanity. But did you notice who is addressee in a particular part of the text. Since you have totally closed your mind to let any knowledgeable thing enter therein you keep raising irrelevant things.

Personal insults will make no difference brother. Bring your proof to validate your translation.

See the addressees