Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

good_logic

I do not see any lamb in the story of Abraham in Qoran.
So Jafar and Imran, you are talking about peoples view on the story.

A lot of assumptions and misunderstanding has nothing to do with what I posted.
Also I do not have a religion, brother Jafar you are mixing me up with some religion I do not claim.

If you quote me, address my points in my posts . Where did I mention any lamb?
GOD bless you both.
Peace.

Jafar

I do not see any lamb in the story of Abraham in Qoran.

Correct the "Quran version" doesn't mention any lamb...

Also I do not have a religion, brother Jafar you are mixing me up with some religion I do not claim.

Good for you.. religion / cult is a poison to common sense and healthy conscience...

But again whether it's replaced with lamb, beef or kebab or salad doesn't really matter.
It's the entire story that I find it ridiculous...

Why not commemorate the legend of Abraham on some of his bold achievement?
Exposing the scam of religion within his own society.
And make it as an inspiration on everyday life...

good_logic

Peace Jafar.
Firstl bring me where I commemorated anything about Abraham? If you are addressing me. Then add this to it, quote

Why not commemorate the legend of Abraham on some of his bold achievement?
Exposing the scam of religion within his own society.
And make it as an inspiration on everyday life...

Otherwise brother Jafar you are making assumptions about me.
Can you see the irony and hypocrisy in your posts ? You are laughing at some assumed views/religion about me!
That is as bad or worse than what you seem to be criticising.
Reminds one of the "plank in the eye", you quote Jesus a lot in some of your posts brother. Use the advice for you as well.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

I do not see any lamb in the story of Abraham in Qoran.
So Jafar and Imran, you are talking about peoples view on the story.

correct you said something like this

This is very much on topic. Had Abraham sacrificed his son, would he have blamed GOD ?
One would argue logically and fairly that if GOD had instructed the act, then GOD is to blame!!!!

laugh

A lot of assumptions and misunderstanding has nothing to do with what I posted.

rotfl

good_logic

Peace Imran.
You are joking ? Quote
correct you said something like this.

Like what? Where do you get "lamb" from my quote?

You mean you do not get what I said?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

@ gl bro let me make it more easy for you..

Me and jafar did not say GL is talking bout lamb,

Then rest of my posts will b easy to understand.

rotfl and i m not joking, ur posts make me laugh a lot thanks for the laughs what i get from u. I appreciate you for this .

good_logic

Thanks brother Imran. I like things easy.
I will help you out by mentioning "lamb", actually many "lambs" in this post

My wife said we each needed to make sacrifices to make our relationship work.
She was less than impressed with the dead lamb I left in our kitchen.

She was right. In order to make a relationship work, you have to make a lot of sacrifices….
Which is why I keep a large number of lambs in my garden…

I adopted a lamb the other day, but my wife said I'd have to get rid of it...
I guess as long as I live with my wife, I'll have to make sacrifices.

As for Abraham
Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son ?
If it was someone else s son it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice.

Do you also want me to tell a story about sacrifice from the beginning?;

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and all things that in them are
Then he eventually created Adam, who was having a lot of fun in the garden, walking around naked, eating fruit from various trees, and hanging out with/naming all of the animals. including lambs.

But one day, Adam began to feel lonely and decided to talk to God about it. In that discussion, Adam expressed that he didn't really have anyone to talk with or connect to on an emotional and physical level and that, somehow, he was incomplete.

God then told Adam about this wonderful creation he had in the works called a woman. In that discussion, he described this woman as being a helpmate, a lover, a friend, a confidant, and a lifetime companion. God said that she would support him in all of his righteous endeavours.

Adam told God that this sounded like the perfect remedy to his ailment and asked God if there was anything he could do to help get things moving along? God said that he would take care of everything, but that he needed an arm and a leg from Adam before he could proceed.

Shocked, Adam asked for some alone time to contemplate such a sacrifice for his own emotional and physical needs. After several hours, he got up, reconvened with God and asked, "What can I get for a rib?"

GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

@ lovely GL

mysterious boy i knew u are a time traveler yay you told us a story about our first parents how they started dating rotfl

u didnt tell who bring eve ? was it gabi or his own rib ? and the most beautiful moment when adam saw eve and he looked in to her eyes like filmy hero rotfl and eve get shy ...

then adam said to eve,

ADAM darling i love u a lot and theres nothing that can separate us.
EVE i know my love adam, there is noone except me and you so none can seperate us anyway..

but they forget an enemy is making a plan to give them damage that was ibless >D
and also a time traveler GL was there

whatever story/movie u come up with there is always a hero and villain hahahaha some times guest appearance like you handshake

good_logic

Peace Imran.
. I will sacrifice the normal rules just one more time and go off topic in this last post to tell you my last 3 stories

1- GOD is doing a better job nowadays ( and not asking anyone to sacrifice their son or daughter) my grand daughter says so

My grand daughter asked, “Did God make me?”
“Yes,” I replied.
“Did he make you, too?”
“Yes.”
“Well,” looking at my wrinkles and thinning hair, “he sure is doing a better job nowadays!”

2- GOD still knows what everyone is doing nowadays ( This Imam has just realised!)

Some working construction company was, levelling the corner of a house that they had jacked about 4 inches above the ground. One of the jacks slipped at the weekend and the house came down with a loud bang.
The next thing , the owner who was the local Imam and a woman who was inside with him, ran out and looked up at the sky. “I thought you did not really know about this Allah, please forgive me....

3- Everyone misunderstands me brother. Even my wife thought I was telling her a joke when my story was real( I was knocking at my own door!)

Knock! Knock!
My wifeWho’s there?
Me Mikey.
My wife Mikey who?
Me Mikey isn’t working, can you let me in?

Thanks for the conversation . Time to go and sacrifice another lamb!!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

Thanks for the conversation . Time to go and sacrifice another lamb!!!!

make sure i want lamb chops grilled one, poor lamb is on trial lol

i just remember movie The Silence of the Lambs must watch movie somehow related with sacrifices.

Jafar

Peace Jafar.
Firstl bring me where I commemorated anything about Abraham? If you are addressing me. Then add this to it, quote

When I'm quoting a text, I'm addressing the statement in the quote and not the author / poster of the quote.
Infact most of the time I didn't bother to see who actually posted the statement.

Speaking about sacrificing and commemorating ridiculous "Abraham tradition".
I just found out that a friend of mine 'sacrificed' vegetables in order to commemorate the tradition, the reason being he's a vegetarian now and refused to do anything or even contribute to anything which might caused harm to animals.
He asked me "Would that still be acceptable by God?"
Which I answered with "I don't know, but who knows, maybe God loves salad..."
A nice idea though, which makes me wondered what would have happened if Abraham was a vegetarian too..

Islamic version also tell a legend that finally Mr. / Ms Satan is finally doing good this time around...
He/She tried to stop Abraham from murdering his own son, but Abraham shun him/her away by pelting stones at him/her.
Commemorated (only by Muslims) by throwing stones at pillars (jamrah/jamarat) as part of the Hajj ritual.
Which added more inconsistency to already ridiculous legend.
Throw stones to anyone who tried to stop you from murdering your own son...

NK

It is quite strange that no one in the Quran takes their dreams literally. Prophet Joseph, Two prisoners in the cell, King's dream, Prophet Muhammad etc. They all interpret their dreams as everyone knows that events in the dreams are not literal but allegorical events which requires interpretation.

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?

huruf

It is quite strange that no one in the Quran takes their dreams literally. Prophet Joseph, Two prisoners in the cell, King's dream, Prophet Muhammad etc. They all interpret their dreams as everyone knows that events in the dreams are not literal but allegorical events which requires interpretation.

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?

Exactly, NK.
Thank God you point that out. Not even in dreams does God tell him to do anything, he simple dreams that he sarifices his son. And that is why, when his son turns older and they go out together, he tells him I have this dream, my dear son, what do you make of it?

He could not be talking with that even straightfoward manner if what he was taling about was killing his son with his own hands, he would be absolutely overwhelmed.

Once more, supposed Qur'an believers are drowned in sippings of the bible.

Salaam

Jafar

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?

The earliest evidence about story of Abraham smashing idols, and showing Abraham's superior logic compared to his society during that time, was first appeared in Midrash (300 AD)
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_and_the_Idol_Shop

While the story Abraham trying to murder his son was written / authored earlier,
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac

The Jews / Israelites were known to commemorate the 'Abraham murdering his son' a.k.a as "Akedah" during their "Rosh Hashanah" festival (Jewish New Year). Much earlier than their Christians and Muslims counterpart.

It's clear that the Xtians and Muslims, which appeared much later compared to Judaism, took the same Abraham myth and add some flavors in accordance to their taste, Specifically the Muslims changed the place of events to Mecca and add additional flavors of Abraham throwing stones at the Devil because the Devil was trying to persuade him to stop his murderous events. (Yet another ridiculous myth added to already ridiculous myth). And they're proposing that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed and not Isaac. (Yeah, whatever... it doesn't take away the insanity of the myth anyway)

We may never know what truly happened or even if Mr. Abraham truly exist.
But.... if there are options to commemorate the Abraham myths, let's opted for the "logical Abraham smashing the biggest idol" as written in the Midrash and the Quran.

Wakas

peace,

It is quite strange that no one in the Quran takes their dreams literally. Prophet Joseph, Two prisoners in the cell, King's dream, Prophet Muhammad etc. They all interpret their dreams as everyone knows that events in the dreams are not literal but allegorical events which requires interpretation.

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?

See article
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote
To end I would like readers to ponder over the following point. Please note the interesting use of different words for 'the sleep/dream' (al manam) in 37102, and 'the vision' (al ru'ya) in 37105. Please re-read the verses above.
At first I thought this was unusual but my research of Quran has often taught me that its use of language is precise and for a reason so I decided to dig deeper and I was amazed at what I found. The usage of 'al manam' in Quran always indicates a literal dream meaning, i.e. no interpretation required, but 'al ru'ya' involves foretelling of a future event that requires interpretation. Thus, Abraham saw in his dream/manam that he was literally sacrificing his son in 37102, but in 37105 God states he confirmed the vision/ru'ya (i.e. interpreted dream). If Quran had said he confirmed his 'al manam' that could have implied he was about to carry out what he literally saw. Coincidence?

Summary
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he was rewarded.

Iyyaka

peace,

See article
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Summary
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he was rewarded.

Salam Wakas,

Even if you did not react or take into account my Quranic arguments about the translation of verse 37103, I would like to thank you for forcing me to look again at this passage on Abraham in Surah 37.
Here is my analysis of the structural observation of this story

Abraham's stories goes from verse 3783 to verse 37113 (the longest story that deals with the past among other stories)
This Qur'anic narrative can be divided into 2 big blocks

From verse 37-83 to verse 3793 => Abraham is alone
From verse 3794 to verse 37 113 => Abraham with his son and alone with Allah

In the first narrative block(V83-93) we find 2 elements of "sacrifice"

"Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation
An attempt fails, by Allah's grace, to "sacrifice" Abraham at a pyre ((37 97 4) bun'yānan = a structure / Interesting Root definition => Ibn Faris says this root means to build by linking apart from one thing by another)

3&#039 In the second narrative block(V94-113) we find 1 element of "sacrifice"

"Sacrifice" of Abraham who separates himself from his son definitively after helping him to fulfill his vision - Well done for your remark in your article.

But the question that comes to me By the play of symmetry between the two narrative blocks, where is the altar of sacrifice? (the second element of "sacrifice&quot

Answer watallahu lil .. = He heaps it at ...

I know that it does not suit your conclusion but thank you for your help for the meditation, by the grace of allah..
Peace

Wakas

peace Iyyaka,

But the question that comes to me By the play of symmetry between the two narrative blocks, where is the altar of sacrifice? (the second element of "sacrifice&quot

Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.

Wakas

peace Iyyaka,

Sorry, I only just now read your earlier post below.

Even if you did not react or take into account my Quranic arguments about the translation of verse 37103...

I read your analysis just now and I consider it weaker, in comparison to my own. My understanding is relatively straightforward and the most cogent from a Quranic perspective, in my view.

And the reward is that God made sure that his remembrance and his work are saved for posterity (again in coherence with the other prophets cited in this surah).

This can also fit with my understanding.

Thus, if it is the case as I think, I lack an element to be convinced by your understanding of the verb "Talla"
How do you translate and understand (2127) ?
Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
2127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the Bayt, "O our Sustainer! Accept Thou this from us for, verily, Thou alone art all-hearing, all-knowing!"

Sorry in advance if you have already answered this question elsewhere in this forum.
Knowing that if we trust the Bible on this particular subject Abraham was building altars dedicated to God in different places.

I can only assume you consider 2127 relevant is because you think the "sacrificial son" was Ishmael. Quran is not explicit on whom it was but my research indicates it was Isaac. The context of the verses only mention Isaac. Most Biblical scholars considered it to be Isaac, and most early Traditional Muslim scholars also considered it to be Isaac. Muslim scholars changed their mind later (at some point in time). There are various theories/reasons as to why they changed their mind but my preliminary research suggests it was to give eminence to Makkah and to link the Traditional Hajj rtuals with Abraham.

In any case you can read my translation and analysis of that verse here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Iyyaka

peace Iyyaka,

Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.

Sorry but my proofs are only quranic - the signs from allah are there. No subjective interpretation just literal context proofs.
As i said i don't believe, under quranic control, at a "PHYSICAL sacrifice", even in dream, between Abraham and Ismael. You can sacrifice your life to spread the message of Allah..as all the messenger.
If the word "sacrifice" disturb you you can use "to devoted yourself to a cause..".

We must separate 2 thinks

First the "sacrifice" of Abraham and Ismael for Allah and specially to call people to visit "the first bouse of gathering" and purify it (not the Kaaba but a place well define) where Ismal stayed live at this place for the rest of his life.
Abraham built with the help of Ismael an altar (Kaaba) as a symbol (the arabic word "shaʿār" - visible) of offering animals for defined days every year to thank Allah for his blessings and to feed the poor.
=> 595
"...and to make it as a donation to reach/as-an-offering-to the Ka'aba..." => So clear, no subjective idea.
And the root word of Ka'aba can refer to the ankle (high and full and useful/beneficial) or the firm and rounded boobs of young woman. (This 2 examples are also in the Quran not in my imagination).

if you do not believe that allah gives you signs by the structuring of his speech and the links that he makes even through different suras then it is your right, BUT from there to declare that it is a SUBJECTIVE method I think that it is a counterproductive manner and a no-Quranic argument ("Does they meditate ?&quot, which does not profit in advancing the truth.

NB just a precision => The quranic Word "Ka'aba" does not fit with what traditional Muslims call Ka'aba at modern Mecca

Peace

TellMeTheTruth

Salam!
I agree that Ibrahim was to leave his sons. There is no sacrifice of animal or human. ذبح عظیم means great separation/splitting.
May be it is talking about the death of Ibrahim AS. Not sure.
Peace!