Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Users
Skins
  • Light
  • Brite
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse
Free Minds Forum Icon
  1. Home
  2. Critical Examination of Islam
  3. Quranic Divinity
  4. HELP NEEDED! Crisis of Faith: The Truthfullness of The Qur'an...

HELP NEEDED! Crisis of Faith: The Truthfullness of The Qur'an...

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Quranic Divinity
38 Posts 8 Posters 2.3k Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • L Offline
    L Offline
    LiberalGamer
    wrote on last edited by
    #5

    Peace good logic.
    Thank you for your post, it did resonate with me.
    I do think you're right, and ultimately, Insha Allah, despite these doubts I don't think I'll dismiss The Qur'an entirely, or at all.
    Admittedly though since these doubts The Qur'an did take a peg down from "It is 99.99% from God" to "It might be from God, I'll try to take a look, and I'll try not to dismiss it, but ultimately I don't know for certain"
    I don't know, honestly, like I do still hope that God will increase me in knowledge and I'll be able to figure out the answer to the question I posed, the one about desires and whatnot, since that is the main one bugging me currently, but I dunno.
    Thanks for your post and peace.

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • J Offline
      J Offline
      jkhan
      wrote on last edited by
      #6

      Peace, alright well here's what I have to say, please bear with me

      First of all thank you for reading what I have to say and for then responding as well, yes I will admit that I was a lot more negative in my post then was fair, and the main reason for that is because I feel that throughout me reading The Qur'an, I was being overtly positive, like I'd find something that didn't make sense I'd usually ignore it, and honestly I don't think that's a bad approach especially if The Qur'an is from God, since we aught to be patient with stuff we don't understand, but still because I did feel as if I had been positive with The Qur'an for the most part, I felt a need to be negative here.
      Plus if we can, God Willingly, debunk these arguments, I think it would be more powerful to debunk the steelman version of the arguments then the neutral versions, if that makes sense.
      Because idk if I made this clear or not but while I was negative in my post I don't denounce The Qur'an at all, I'm, Insha Allah, not doing a 180 and saying it's all falsehood 100% or even that it isn't from God, in fact I hope I'm wrong for a majority of points, but idk I felt the need to get these points off of my chest and hopefully Insha Allah either debunk them, or see that they do hold water, and in that case I'd probably try to idk find something else idk.

      Anyway the second point, um, five reasons are a lot but here's my attempt I guess, but keep in mind I am very much so influenced by The Qur'an + these may be weak bcz I didn't really have a lot of time to flush things out

      1). Creation implies if not demands a Creator , especially Creation as intrecate as ours, granted this doesn't tell us much about The Creator, but there are certain things you can derive from the fact, like for example The Creator can't really be less powerful then it's Creation.
      2). taking something else as Lord, I realized, say I became an atheist or something, I would just end up taking something else as my Lord, as my purpose, be it family, career, a hobby, a community, etc. Ultimately if I wanted to live a meaningful life I realized I'd probably end up picking something as my crux, so then realizing I'll probably end up doing so, I decided to choose God, The Creator, as my crux I guess.
      3). I dunno dude death I guess, we'll all die and I do believe that once we do we'll know a bit more then we do now, and I do wanna be sincere and truthful and truthfully I do believe God exists, I guess, idk
      4). I dunno Life's beautiful and even if there's a 0.00001% chance that God exists I still want to Thank Him for giving me life and hopefully do right by Him
      5). If we're talking about God's Existence, the fact that life exists is just reason enough on it's own that I aught to try and do right by God, it might not convince people that He Exists and truth be told I don't care, this isn't about their belief it's about mine, I would phrase it like this 'I exist, there's a possibility of a Creator, just the fact that I exist is reason enough to try and do right by Him"

      6). personal but I did promise to myself, and I suppose to God, that I would believe & have faith in Him no matter what, not always in The Qur'an or The Bible, but always in Him.
      7). faith I guess, I chose to have Faith in Him.
      8].plus there's like an inherit sort of sense that He does idk what to say.

      dude idk but yeah, idk, am sounding very uncertain in these points but it's cause I am, like the first point's probably the strongest point, maybe the 5th one is as well, but ultimately I believe in God because I just do idk what to say.
      But if you wanna make the argument that, because idk, if The Qur'an isn't holy then that means that The Creator doesn't exist, I don't think that really holds water because like, if I say "the sky is blue but also pigs fly", and you don't believe that I'm telling the truth, that doesn't mean the sky isn't blue, y'know.

      But okay I digressed, anyway yea I agree there are a lot of questions, but I guess my two most important ones would be, and they sort of go hand in hand

      -From my perspective there are a ton of proofs that God Exists, as The Qur'an points out as well , but the problem I have is Proving that God Exists != Proving that The Qur'an is from God, the only proof we have for that is that it claims to be from God, and the problem with that, well, is that there are a lot of other people who also claim that they are from God, and plus that doesn't really suffice as proof since technically anyone can claim anything to be from God and they'd be on the same level as The Qur'an, right? I mean I dunno...

      Perhaps a possible piece of proof would be if it was clear that The Messenger and the One whom he claims to speak for are clearly different entities, but the problem with that is, and truthfully what got me into the whole debacle, is the question?

      -Is there anything in The Qur'an which goes against The Prophet's desires / is there anything in The Qur'an which proves that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?

      And the problem I have is that it seems like... no, it seems like everything in the Qur'an also conveniently either benefits the prophet, or doesn't really affect the prophet that much.

      So in a nutshell, two main questions

      -let's assume that God Exists, how does that prove that The Qur'an is from God?
      -is there anything in The Qur'an which shows that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?

      No one can prove that God does exist… it is out and out sheer guidance from God to accept Him.. it is a vast knowledge within a person go for the option of Existence of a Creator behind all these.. or else just can leave it saying no one created anything… if created then one behind it and if not created then no one behind it.. So one should use his knowledge through nature (whatever exists) whether these things are created or evolved naturally… so depending on the option selected it drives one to accept existence of God and Non-existence of God..
      Okay let me turn to your point…
      Thank You for replying stating your key reasons to believe in the Creator.. It is totally your personal choice like anyone else… But one thing is common between a normal believer and you.. That is Believing in God… Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn’t possibly from the God that you believe 100%. … But, it is not mere statement of yours, but to succor that you listed your logical reasons picking certain verses from Quran… It is absolutely fine for anyone to have their own understanding.. Coz you have a valid reason within your knowledge… but if your understanding is fragile in those concerned verses and if you find the comprehensive explanation subduing your understanding, then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist.. coz knowing the truth merely won’t make one to choose the truth, but it needs sheer quality of a person to accept truth....

      -let's assume that God Exists, how does that prove that The Qur'an is from God?
      To grasp this one cannot have blind faith… like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn’t make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… Either you have to comprehensively debate in a good platform or self-perceive diligently … when you reach to the simmering point in Quran if you give up taking one side assuming right then the result is you will most probably reach to the boiling point.. Thus you will start claiming that this Quran cannot be from God..

      -is there anything in The Qur'an which shows that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?
      First of all you should understand that God and Prophet are TWO not one.. But, God and Messenger are ONE….

      4165 “Messengers as bringers of good Tidings and Warners so that mankind will have no argument against Allah after the messengers.

      God’s wish is to pass the message of His existence through His Messengers … God’s wish cannot be compared with human being’s desire.. of course Prophet was a human being… Note well the above verse… Glad Tidings for whom? For Human being.. so it is something that is pleasant for entire human being… it is not the desire of Prophet alone… What is Warning? In my understanding ‘an advance announcement of something which may not be pleasant or the consequences of neglecting the advance notice may not give pleasurable results..”… Now once these Glad Tidings and Warnings are issued there should not be any argument..
      So.. you singled out the desire… Can we include desire into glad tidings? Yes.. So glad tidings are not merely for Prophet but for entire human race… so does Warning… Warning is for Prophet and entire human being.. Message is for human being and the message is from God, so it should align or comply with human wishes which are righteous if it is in fact glad tidings..
      For example… Prophet never wanted to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife… These are not lies… coz these incidents were active in the society… Prophet is shy but not God… What if when Prophet said to his fostered son keep your wife and if his fostered son agreed thinking it is a message from God… Is that a desire of any father to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife? So that desire of prophet aligned with God’s? Well… that’s a blasphemy… isn’t it?
      When Quran says, All messengers are same and don’t make any distinction with one another… What benefit for Prophet by this verse? Why can’t he make himself more elite than rest of the prophets… Why verse doesn’t state Mohamed is the best prophet ….. you know everyone human has a tendency to have a grip over others.. isn’t it.. Why Mohamed as a messenger is equal with others? Why there is no verse to indicate saying God directly spoke to Mohamed like God talked to Musa? Such things should be desire of Mohamed if he in fact forge verses.. okay let’s hope Mohamed included something into Quran to suit his desire as you possibly presume.. In that case would God be silent while God is delivering His own Message and his own Messenger is deliberately changing it..
      Still if you are not convinced, let me ask in this manner…. As per you, you do believe in God.. That’s great… So, are you saying that God is silent without letting his Creations know that He wants us to behave in such and such manner? So we are free creatures to do whatever we feel right since Quran or Torah or any other book or Messengers who came before all liar possibly…

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • Emre_1974trE Offline
        Emre_1974trE Offline
        Emre_1974tr
        wrote on last edited by
        #7

        Again

        Everyone is free to believe what they wish, according to Quran. This is the goal of the test world. To confront yourself.

        Quran only allows a war of defense.

        If you read the full of the verses, you will always see the struggle with the attackers in the defense battle.

        Example;

        2190 Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.

        2191 Fight them wherever you meet them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. Do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then fight them. Thus is the reward of those who do not appreciate.

        2192 If they cease, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

        2193 Fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.


        Here again, He says, fight with the attackers.

        But if you pull out a single verse. You make it look like saying the opposite.

        And look at

        499 And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with the command of God. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.

        As you can see saying, if the attackers are Muslims, stop them too.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • L Offline
          L Offline
          LiberalGamer
          wrote on last edited by
          #8

          Peace jkhan, thank you for your reply.

          I suppose you're right on the first point, truth be told I would say among all of the other ones, the main reason I do believe in the existence of God is due to His Guidance, I suppose I just have this natural inclination to believe in God, the atheists might say it's because of the fear of the unknown or whatever like that and tbh I don't think that's it, I can't pinpoint exactly why, but I will admit that I don't believe in God on purely 100% rational reasoning alone.

          anyway... I am a bit confused on your second point, more specifically "Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn’t possibly from the God that you believe 100%. ", don't really know what you mean, but if you mean what I think you mean then yea, I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is not from God, but unfortunately I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is from God either.

          "then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist", yea, I guess I did, but tbh I think I did always have this sorta inclination, maybe.
          Like the inclination that even if The Qur'an ends up being a complete hoax, that that won't fully destroy my faith in God, because I believe that the concept of The Creator, that God surprasses my understanding of The Qur'an.

          "To grasp this one cannot have blind faith… like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn’t make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
          Well, I don't know, honestly, but I have to ask what's wrong with blind faith? isn't all faith blind? I dunno dude, like I think I understand you, but I don't know if I agree.
          Because like listen, here's my view
          Either Islam / The Qur'an is a Universal Religion or a Local Religion.

          A Local Religion would mean that it's like every other religion, you have this book, you accept this book, you accept the beliefs, you're good, and that's that, and if you don't accept the book well you can get another religion, and tbh I'm a bit against this, beacuse it seems like every religion is like this, especially including sunni islam, you either accept the doctrines or you leave, it seems based on faith alone.

          But A Universal Religion would be something that has principles which are universally applied, mythology that can be reasoned towards, and to me The Qur'an Alone view seemed to really lean in this direction, with verses like 262 ... and stuff like that.
          And honestly it still does seem to lean in that direction which is why I believe it to be closer to the truth then the other religions, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because if you believe that it is a universal religion, as I do, then you believe that you can reason for it's idea of God even without having it directly, because it is the truth, and if you believe that, then we're just back where we started, because we've concluded outside of any religious text that God exists, but that doesn't prove the validity of one text above another, I guess, idk honestly.
          "the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
          I would and I will still try, God Willingly, but it seems like the answer to my conundrum is just "if you don't believe The Prophet is A Prophet, then you're in for a painful punishment"

          And finally for your last point, thanks for your response, but truth be told I think I didn't really convey what I wanted to convey clearly, I've tried to convey it more clearly down below in the semi last paragraph.

          "Glad Tidings for whom? For Human being.. so it is something that is pleasant for entire human being… it is not the desire of Prophet alone… "
          I know, and I do agree like, if this is sent from God it is glad tidings and warnings as well... but the problem is is that this is only the case if you assume that this is the truth, and not a fabriciation that the messenger made up.
          If you assume that it is not the truth, then the 'glad tidings' are not really glad at all since they're not truthful, rather they are false hopes to get his followers to follow him, y'know, that's what I'm trying to get at, if it's false it benefits the prophet, if it's true it benefits the people and the prophet, but the fact is is that if it's false it does still benefit the prophet.

          Bear with me because this
          "For example… Prophet never wanted to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife… These are not lies… coz these incidents were active in the society… Prophet is shy but not God… What if when Prophet said to his fostered son keep your wife and if his fostered son agreed thinking it is a message from God… Is that a desire of any father to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife? So that desire of prophet aligned with God’s? Well… that’s a blasphemy… isn’t it?""
          But here's the thing, if you assume that The Qur'an is fabricated, and that Mohamed was making stuff up, then this does make sense once again.
          Mohamed would've wanted to marry his adopted's son ex wife, and then since, in this lens, he fabricated The Qur'an, he could easily claim that God said that he has to marry his adpoted's son ex wife.
          I mean to provide an alternative if God said no to him marrying his adopted's son's wife, wouldn't that be more powerful? That would mean that if he really was fabricating stuff, he would be forbidding stuff that he wanted to do, which makes no sense, so in that case it is more logical to assume that at the very least he wasn't maliciously fabricating stuff.
          Hope you understood what I'm trying to say.

          "When Quran says, All messengers are same and don’t make any distinction with one another… What benefit for Prophet by this verse? Why can’t he make himself more elite than rest of the prophets… Why verse doesn’t state Mohamed is the best prophet ….. you know everyone human has a tendency to have a grip over others.. isn’t it.. Why Mohamed as a messenger is equal with others? Why there is no verse to indicate saying God directly spoke to Mohamed like God talked to Musa? Such things should be desire of Mohamed if he in fact forge verses.."
          But you see that's the problem, while at first this seems like a good point, here's the thing
          No other messenger is/was alive at the time of Mohamed.
          So when Mohamed claims that he is no more elite then any other Messenger, while that sounds good at first, it literally doesn't affect him because there is no other messenger alive that would take from his elite-ness.
          This verse, if you assume it's a fabrication, would basically be saying "Messengers are more elite then normal people, I'm not better then any other messenger, but I'm also the only alive messenger, therefore I am the only elite person alive"
          It ultimately doesn't affect him, all it does is once again benefit him because his followers could claim what you are claiming.

          "Still if you are not convinced, let me ask in this manner…. As per you, you do believe in God.. That’s great… So, are you saying that God is silent without letting his Creations know that He wants us to behave in such and such manner? So we are free creatures to do whatever we feel right since Quran or Torah or any other book or Messengers who came before all liar possibly…"
          This... honestly is a good question, but it's still not really anything super solid, because you could apply the same thing to the people who didn't have The Qur'an for the last millenium or so, people in japan or rural africa who never heard of The Qur'an, what about them?
          But yea no this is still a good question.

          Thank you for bearing with me and honestly I did once again approach this in a negative manner, apologies for that, I am eagerly awaiting your reply and I hope I wasn't too harsh...

          Honestly I did ramble quite a bit, if you wish to respond, and I would appreciate that, here would be the main thing I'd like your view on, my main conundrum so far in a nutshell, I guess
          'If you assume that The Qur'an is inspired by God, a lot of things make sense... but there are also a lot of things don't line up, like killing / war, worldy life, etc.
          But if you assume that The Qur'an is written by a human living in the 7th century, a lot more things make sense, and the things that previously made sense seem to make more sense through this lens. Hell, Killing / War, Worldy Life, Punishments, Threats, that's my main conundrum, the fact that, if you believe it is from God, 60% of things make sense, 40% of things don't make sense, and if you assume it's from a human from the 7th century, it seems like 95% of the things make sense, 5% of the things maybe don't make sense.

          So my question in a nutshell is, are there any verses / themes / principles from The Qur'an that, should it be viewed from a human 7th century lens, just wouldn't make sense at all for it being there, but should it be viewed from the 'Inspired by God' lens, it makes a lot more sense?'

          Thank you for your reply honestly and apologies if I misconstrued anything you said, truth be told I am having a bit of difficulty understanding what you're trying to get across, but I hope I understood the main points you were making.
          Peace.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • L Offline
            L Offline
            LiberalGamer
            wrote on last edited by
            #9

            Peace emre.

            Yes I do see and honestly I do agree, the verses you brought up are cool.
            But I still can't lie when I say that, when I read the 8th, 9th, 33rd, or 59th surah, they still seem rather cruel...

            But that's not even my main point, my main point is that, idk honestly, I might very well be mistaken, but a lot of these things, the calls to fight back and all that seem written from a human perspective I guess idk, rather then from God's.
            I mean God constantly talks about those in patience, and talks about how ultimately this life is just a very short life, and the hereafter is the true home, because it's literally for eternity, but then when The Prophet pbuh and the believers get attacked, all of a sudden God says to fight back?

            Like think about it this way, if The Prophet and the believers were never attacked, would those violent verses exist? And if the answer is no, then that seems really unfair

            It seems way too reactionary, like times are peaceful The Qur'an is advocating for patience and doing good even in hardship, times turn violent and all of a sudden it's now "fight back", I don't know honestly

            In a nutshell it seems like the principle of patience wasn't applied universally, but I don't know honestly I am not in a very good place right now and I think my reasoning and approach is very flawed, I look forward to hearing your response.
            Peace.

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • Emre_1974trE Offline
              Emre_1974trE Offline
              Emre_1974tr
              wrote on last edited by
              #10

              Peace LiberalGamer

              The verses clearly teach that it is right to defend yourself. It is even stated that it is necessary in some cases. Because being a bystander to oppression and oppressing oneself is also cruelty.

              By the way, the permission to cut the hands and legs diagonally mentioned in verse 533 is also self-defense and retaliation

              https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609989.msg412402;topicseen#msg412402

              And; If this permission was not mentioned in the verses, this time Muslims would not be able to defend themselves at all. Because in other verses it is stated that killing is a great sin. Those who read the Qur'an would think that war in self-defense is also prohibited this time, if it was not told that war is allowed in special circumstances.

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • WakasW Offline
                WakasW Offline
                Wakas
                wrote on last edited by
                #11

                peace,
                You may be interested in these articles

                https//www.free-minds.org/mumins

                https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm

                All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • H Offline
                  H Offline
                  hawk99
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #12

                  Peace,

                  Wow, what a long post, so I'll just generalize maybe that can be helpful. I'll start by asking you a question. What do you want from Allah?

                  God bless you

                  peace

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • L Offline
                    L Offline
                    LiberalGamer
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #13

                    Peace Emre.
                    Thank you for your thoughts, yes I see the importance of this and while this is something that still rubs me the wrong way, I do agree with you to an extent.
                    However this isn't the main reason why I'm having these doubts, as I said the main reason isn't that there are things in The Qur'an that I don't understand, it's that there are things in The Qur'an that I understand more if I assume that The Qur'an isn't from God rather from a human, as much as I hate to say it.

                    But even still with this I Insha Allah hope to not give up on The Qur'an, it's just that, I don't know, it would be nice if there was something, a verse, a principle, a surah, which doesn't make sense if you assume it's from a human, but makes a ton of sense if you assume it's from God.
                    .

                    Peace be upon you Emre.

                    Peace Wakas.
                    Thank you for your posts, but truth be told they didn't help all that much.
                    No offense if you made any of these posts, but the first post... admittedly I didn't read much but it doesn't seem all to relevant, please correct me if I'm wrong tho.
                    But the second post, truth be told scientific miracles in the Qur'an has always felt icky to me, because of the constantly changing nature of science, so using it as proof is a bit ehh in my view, and the literally stuff is literally so subjective, I mean there are a lot of people who claim that a lot of books are wonderful in literature, that doesn't prove if it's Divine or not.
                    And the prophecies, alright yea this is probably the strongest of the three points, but even here some are a stretch from my view, such as the moon landing stuff.
                    but yea, the main reason this doesn't resonate with me is that I'm having semi-doubts on more of a principled level, and I said it before and I'll say it again
                    the conundrum that I'm having is the following, I guess
                    "if you assume that The Qur'an was written by a human, then almost everything in The Qur'an seems to be designed to benefit the author in one way or another. There doesn't seem to be any inconvenient truths in The Qur'an for the, if you believe so, human author, rather everything seems to align with what a human who would fabricate a text of this magnitude would desire."

                    But thank you for your post either way, Peace be upon you.

                    Peace hawk99.
                    Thank you for your post, your question is truthfully very meaningful.
                    Admittedly there are a lot of things I hope for, I guess, and admittedly I am staggering a bit in what I want for myself, but to answer your question, 'What would I want from Allah swt."', I would say, more or less

                    -To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves.

                    For most of the time The Qur'an served this purpose, and admittedly I came across a lot of conundrums, but now with this conundrum I'm doubting if following The Qur'an would be following what God Wants for us, I do believe He is Merciful , so I'm not saying that anyone who follows The Qur'an would get punished, rather I'm saying if God didn't send down The Qur'an, then I'd rather spend my time elsewhere trying to find what He wants for us, then to use that time interpenetrating The Qur'an, assuming it's falsehood...

                    I hope I got across what I was going to say...

                    Peace be upon you hawk, and thank you for your post

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • Emre_1974trE Offline
                      Emre_1974trE Offline
                      Emre_1974tr
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #14

                      https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611564.0

                      Peace

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • H Offline
                        H Offline
                        hawk99
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #15

                        Peace hawk99.
                        Thank you for your post, your question is truthfully very meaningful.
                        Admittedly there are a lot of things I hope for, I guess, and admittedly I am staggering a bit in what I want for myself, but to answer your question, 'What would I want from Allah swt."', I would say, more or less

                        -To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves.

                        For most of the time The Qur'an served this purpose, and admittedly I came across a lot of conundrums, but now with this conundrum I'm doubting if following The Qur'an would be following what God Wants for us, I do believe He is Merciful , so I'm not saying that anyone who follows The Qur'an would get punished, rather I'm saying if God didn't send down The Qur'an, then I'd rather spend my time elsewhere trying to find what He wants for us, then to use that time interpenetrating The Qur'an, assuming it's falsehood...

                        I hope I got across what I was going to say...

                        Peace be upon you hawk, and thank you for your post

                        Peace LiberalGamer, now that your have answered the question "What do I want from Allah" and you replied "To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves." The next step is to find via Quran how to accomplish your goals.

                        Here's one example
                        2177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.

                        God bless you

                        peace

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • J Offline
                          J Offline
                          jkhan
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #16

                          Peace jkhan, thank you for your reply.

                          I suppose you're right on the first point, truth be told I would say among all of the other ones, the main reason I do believe in the existence of God is due to His Guidance, I suppose I just have this natural inclination to believe in God, the atheists might say it's because of the fear of the unknown or whatever like that and tbh I don't think that's it, I can't pinpoint exactly why, but I will admit that I don't believe in God on purely 100% rational reasoning alone.

                          1....anyway... I am a bit confused on your second point, more specifically "Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn’t possibly from the God that you believe 100%. ", don't really know what you mean, but if you mean what I think you mean then yea, I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is not from God, but unfortunately I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is from God either.

                          "then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist", yea, I guess I did, but tbh I think I did always have this sorta inclination, maybe.
                          Like the inclination that even if The Qur'an ends up being a complete hoax, that that won't fully destroy my faith in God, because I believe that the concept of The Creator, that God surprasses my understanding of The Qur'an.

                          2....."To grasp this one cannot have blind faith… like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn’t make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
                          Well, I don't know, honestly, but I have to ask what's wrong with blind faith? isn't all faith blind? I dunno dude, like I think I understand you, but I don't know if I agree.
                          Because like listen, here's my view
                          Either Islam / The Qur'an is a Universal Religion or a Local Religion.

                          A Local Religion would mean that it's like every other religion, you have this book, you accept this book, you accept the beliefs, you're good, and that's that, and if you don't accept the book well you can get another religion, and tbh I'm a bit against this, beacuse it seems like every religion is like this, especially including sunni islam, you either accept the doctrines or you leave, it seems based on faith alone.

                          3.....But A Universal Religion would be something that has principles which are universally applied, mythology that can be reasoned towards, and to me The Qur'an Alone view seemed to really lean in this direction, with verses like 262 ... and stuff like that.
                          And honestly it still does seem to lean in that direction which is why I believe it to be closer to the truth then the other religions, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because if you believe that it is a universal religion, as I do, then you believe that you can reason for it's idea of God even without having it directly, because it is the truth, and if you believe that, then we're just back where we started, because we've concluded outside of any religious text that God exists, but that doesn't prove the validity of one text above another, I guess, idk honestly.
                          "the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
                          I would and I will still try, God Willingly, but it seems like the answer to my conundrum is just "if you don't believe The Prophet is A Prophet, then you're in for a painful punishment"

                          And finally for your last point, thanks for your response, but truth be told I think I didn't really convey what I wanted to convey clearly, I've tried to convey it more clearly down below in the semi last paragraph.

                          "Glad Tidings for whom? For Human being.. so it is something that is pleasant for entire human being… it is not the desire of Prophet alone… "
                          I know, and I do agree like, if this is sent from God it is glad tidings and warnings as well... but the problem is is that this is only the case if you assume that this is the truth, and not a fabriciation that the messenger made up.
                          If you assume that it is not the truth, then the 'glad tidings' are not really glad at all since they're not truthful, rather they are false hopes to get his followers to follow him, y'know, that's what I'm trying to get at, if it's false it benefits the prophet, if it's true it benefits the people and the prophet, but the fact is is that if it's false it does still benefit the prophet.

                          Bear with me because this
                          "For example… Prophet never wanted to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife… These are not lies… coz these incidents were active in the society… Prophet is shy but not God… What if when Prophet said to his fostered son keep your wife and if his fostered son agreed thinking it is a message from God… Is that a desire of any father to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife? So that desire of prophet aligned with God’s? Well… that’s a blasphemy… isn’t it?""
                          But here's the thing, if you assume that The Qur'an is fabricated, and that Mohamed was making stuff up, then this does make sense once again.
                          Mohamed would've wanted to marry his adopted's son ex wife, and then since, in this lens, he fabricated The Qur'an, he could easily claim that God said that he has to marry his adpoted's son ex wife.
                          I mean to provide an alternative if God said no to him marrying his adopted's son's wife, wouldn't that be more powerful? That would mean that if he really was fabricating stuff, he would be forbidding stuff that he wanted to do, which makes no sense, so in that case it is more logical to assume that at the very least he wasn't maliciously fabricating stuff.
                          Hope you understood what I'm trying to say.

                          "When Quran says, All messengers are same and don’t make any distinction with one another… What benefit for Prophet by this verse? Why can’t he make himself more elite than rest of the prophets… Why verse doesn’t state Mohamed is the best prophet ….. you know everyone human has a tendency to have a grip over others.. isn’t it.. Why Mohamed as a messenger is equal with others? Why there is no verse to indicate saying God directly spoke to Mohamed like God talked to Musa? Such things should be desire of Mohamed if he in fact forge verses.."
                          But you see that's the problem, while at first this seems like a good point, here's the thing
                          No other messenger is/was alive at the time of Mohamed.
                          So when Mohamed claims that he is no more elite then any other Messenger, while that sounds good at first, it literally doesn't affect him because there is no other messenger alive that would take from his elite-ness.
                          This verse, if you assume it's a fabrication, would basically be saying "Messengers are more elite then normal people, I'm not better then any other messenger, but I'm also the only alive messenger, therefore I am the only elite person alive"
                          It ultimately doesn't affect him, all it does is once again benefit him because his followers could claim what you are claiming.

                          "Still if you are not convinced, let me ask in this manner…. As per you, you do believe in God.. That’s great… So, are you saying that God is silent without letting his Creations know that He wants us to behave in such and such manner? So we are free creatures to do whatever we feel right since Quran or Torah or any other book or Messengers who came before all liar possibly…"
                          This... honestly is a good question, but it's still not really anything super solid, because you could apply the same thing to the people who didn't have The Qur'an for the last millenium or so, people in japan or rural africa who never heard of The Qur'an, what about them?
                          But yea no this is still a good question.

                          Thank you for bearing with me and honestly I did once again approach this in a negative manner, apologies for that, I am eagerly awaiting your reply and I hope I wasn't too harsh...

                          Honestly I did ramble quite a bit, if you wish to respond, and I would appreciate that, here would be the main thing I'd like your view on, my main conundrum so far in a nutshell, I guess
                          'If you assume that The Qur'an is inspired by God, a lot of things make sense... but there are also a lot of things don't line up, like killing / war, worldy life, etc.
                          But if you assume that The Qur'an is written by a human living in the 7th century, a lot more things make sense, and the things that previously made sense seem to make more sense through this lens. Hell, Killing / War, Worldy Life, Punishments, Threats, that's my main conundrum, the fact that, if you believe it is from God, 60% of things make sense, 40% of things don't make sense, and if you assume it's from a human from the 7th century, it seems like 95% of the things make sense, 5% of the things maybe don't make sense.

                          So my question in a nutshell is, are there any verses / themes / principles from The Qur'an that, should it be viewed from a human 7th century lens, just wouldn't make sense at all for it being there, but should it be viewed from the 'Inspired by God' lens, it makes a lot more sense?'

                          Thank you for your reply honestly and apologies if I misconstrued anything you said, truth be told I am having a bit of difficulty understanding what you're trying to get across, but I hope I understood the main points you were making.
                          Peace.

                          1... I meant by 100% not Quran but God.. Coz you accepted that you believe in God 100%. ... I know you don't believe in Quran 100% that's why you are here raising your questions...

                          2... Not everything is blind faith... How would you rationalize that... Blind faith is mere faith and never ever interested dig deep in to what one have faith and it is totally prejudiced and keeping away from making complaints against faith.. For example conventional Muslims... They love the way their Religion is... And not raise questions againat their fundamentals.. They are happy with it... That's blind faith... But, the one who questions everything and grasp and find the truth and have faith on it... For example no one has seen God.. If anyone believe in God OR Goddess of multiple gods all can be listed as blind faith.. But how one realizes that having a God is imperative by reasoning everything is not blind faith... Faith is never blind if you unblind what actually is blind.. That's what conventional Muslims failed.. Most of their faith is Right.. But blind coz they are happy with what is blind..

                          3... I don't know why you claim universal religion... God's guidance is common... Coz He wants people to choose the right path and not the path He doesn't prefer... It is not a religion local or universal.. Coz He kept human being on this Earth... He never changes His sunna.. He never changes the basic... Nuh would have lived thousands year back compared to Muhamed.. But if both go to Janna if means they have maintained the basics which is right path...

                          In addition... Japan or Mexico or whatever.. The Creator knows whom to guide.. Fisherman knows where to fish... Or else just don't search your lost wallet just coz light is just leaving the place you actually lost it coz of darkness..
                          So dude.. Let God do His part of guiding peole and misguiding them... He knows what He does..

                          If He destroy sending a Tsunami thousands of people He knows why He does so. Is our kindness is more powerful than His Mercy so that we ask why God kils innocent or why God orders to Fight and kill... He knows what is unseen to us.. It is not merely visual part... But every aspect...

                          That's why I was wondering why Some prophets names are missing.. God took a covenant with five prophets.. Nuh, Ibrahim musa Isa and Mohamed.. Why at least in this list a Japanese name or Chinese or South American OR Russian or central African OR aborigines... Coz.. He knows where his guided people are living. He favored for sure... Okay no need all prophets names.. But why at least couple of names in this covenant from Chinese prophets.. Isn't it something to ponder..

                          I Inshalla respond your new set of questions over the weekend.
                          If you are finding hard to grasp the way I write pls bear with me.. Coz I always write in normal dialogue style.. Thank you...

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • G Offline
                            G Offline
                            good_logic
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #17

                            So why worry about what a human writes? Does it matter if a book warns me about hell after I die or rewards me with paradise or cares about my well being or does not care, what would a human know about death or after I die?
                            If Qoran was written by human/s ,then the argument is closed. Do not take any notice
                            So what is the issue then? If you prove to yourself that Qoran is authored by humans , there is no issue. Humans tell lies and some truth. exaggerate, make up stuff and lack deep knowledge about life and death and have no idea about after death.

                            Or what is it about Qoran that is telling your instinct this book may not be written by human/s?
                            Only then, one can start to ponder. Look at this book with interest and only then doubts start to form and grow.

                            For me, after this decision to look sincerely and with honesty at the book things will start to unfold in a way you cannot completely control or understand at first ,then you find yourself on a journey talking to empty rooms, walls fresh air yourself.. like you are having a conversation with the author of this book why?
                            I find it a live book ,challenging me to change my attitude and better myself in every way i can ,walking with me everywhere I go and being my friend , my helper my guide, my key to all aspects of my life , like its author is directing and taking over my life and me willingly let in it happen .I can clearly see the benefit and good in it in my situation.
                            I now see that the relationship with GOD is facilitated and consolidated by the contents and instructions in this book and the change is real .
                            This important side then helps me to sort out some of the issues I come across some verses. There is always more to do and more to know.
                            It will be ongoing as part of the journey..
                            GOD bless you all.
                            Peace.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • J Offline
                              J Offline
                              jkhan
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #18

                              So why worry about what a human writes? Does it matter if a book warns me about hell after I die or rewards me with paradise or cares about my well being or does not care, what would a human know about death or after I die?
                              If Qoran was written by human/s ,then the argument is closed. Do not take any notice
                              So what is the issue then? If you prove to yourself that Qoran is authored by humans , there is no issue. Humans tell lies and some truth. exaggerate, make up stuff and lack deep knowledge about life and death and have no idea about after death.

                              Or what is it about Qoran that is telling your instinct this book may not be written by human/s?
                              Only then, one can start to ponder. Look at this book with interest and only then doubts start to form and grow.

                              For me, after this decision to look sincerely and with honesty at the book things will start to unfold in a way you cannot completely control or understand at first ,then you find yourself on a journey talking to empty rooms, walls fresh air yourself.. like you are having a conversation with the author of this book why?
                              I find it a live book ,challenging me to change my attitude and better myself in every way i can ,walking with me everywhere I go and being my friend , my helper my guide, my key to all aspects of my life , like its author is directing and taking over my life and me willingly let in it happen .I can clearly see the benefit and good in it in my situation.
                              I now see that the relationship with GOD is facilitated and consolidated by the contents and instructions in this book and the change is real .
                              This important side then helps me to sort out some of the issues I come across some verses. There is always more to do and more to know.
                              It will be ongoing as part of the journey..
                              GOD bless you all.
                              Peace.

                              Yes.. It has some well constituted questions...

                              I would like to ask a short question from the initiator of this topic just to curtail long argument and in the end would perhaps terminate nowhere,
                              So my simole question is how would you cope up with Belief in God if you are satisfied that all books were inventions of human and no messengers came to reveal anything which came from God?
                              Do you think you would be able to sustain your faith of God in just believing God and His existence..
                              So if we group the entire human race.. We possibly can make them into two.. Those who believe in God and Those who don't believe in God... So you belong to to the former.. Is this enough?
                              I am afraid, I am extending my questions, but inevitable.. Don't you think since you believe in God that He would have heralded some messages to His creations... At least to say Why He created us? So you believe in God and you don't know from the side of God why He created us coz for you God has not sent any message but human invented.. So as believer in God why you are here on this Earth ? Is it left for you to just speculate..
                              Deeply ponder brother / sister.. I am sure you have good knowledge but not applied it in right way... .

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • WakasW Offline
                                WakasW Offline
                                Wakas
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #19

                                peace,

                                No offense if you made any of these posts, but the first post... admittedly I didn't read much but it doesn't seem all to relevant, please correct me if I'm wrong tho.

                                Seems relevant to me. You said you believe in God but perhaps not Quran which would likely make you a muslim NOT a mumin. Understanding the difference is a simple yet important concept. I recommend actually reading the article in full.

                                But the second post, truth be told scientific miracles in the Qur'an has always felt icky to me, because of the constantly changing nature of science, so using it as proof is a bit ehh in my view, and the literally stuff is literally so subjective, I mean there are a lot of people who claim that a lot of books are wonderful in literature, that doesn't prove if it's Divine or not.
                                And the prophecies, alright yea this is probably the strongest of the three points, but even here some are a stretch from my view, such as the moon landing stuff.
                                but yea, the main reason this doesn't resonate with me is that I'm having semi-doubts on more of a principled level, and I said it before and I'll say it again

                                Yes science changes but if something is true then it's still true 100 years from now. Could a person "guess" right once, twice, thrice......... etc until one is forced to ask how likely is this, hence the probability discussion in the article. Literary excellence is subjective but the point is literary scholars/academics are pretty unanimous in describing Quran as an outstanding example of Arabic prose. The beauty of the article is it asks you to plug in whatever probabilities you think are fair then calculate them at the end (I assume you never did that).

                                the conundrum that I'm having is the following, I guess
                                "if you assume that The Qur'an was written by a human, then almost everything in The Qur'an seems to be designed to benefit the author in one way or another. There doesn't seem to be any inconvenient truths in The Qur'an for the, if you believe so, human author, rather everything seems to align with what a human who would fabricate a text of this magnitude would desire."

                                Muhammad never took credit for writing it and is criticised in it multiple times, e.g. 18110, 3337, 801, 867, 943, 661.

                                All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • J Offline
                                  J Offline
                                  jkhan
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #20

                                  Yes.. It has some well constituted questions...

                                  I would like to ask a short question from the initiator of this topic just to curtail long argument and in the end would perhaps terminate nowhere,
                                  So my simole question is how would you cope up with Belief in God if you are satisfied that all books were inventions of human and no messengers came to reveal anything which came from God?
                                  Do you think you would be able to sustain your faith of God in just believing God and His existence..
                                  So if we group the entire human race.. We possibly can make them into two.. Those who believe in God and Those who don't believe in God... So you belong to to the former.. Is this enough?
                                  I am afraid, I am extending my questions, but inevitable.. Don't you think since you believe in God that He would have heralded some messages to His creations... At least to say Why He created us? So you believe in God and you don't know from the side of God why He created us coz for you God has not sent any message but human invented.. So as believer in God why you are here on this Earth ? Is it left for you to just speculate..
                                  Deeply ponder brother / sister.. I am sure you have good knowledge but not applied it in right way... .

                                  I would like to this thread couple of more concerns..
                                  If you believe in God 100% what benefit for you?
                                  How would you explain to anyone who wishes to believe in God your phylosopy so that they may believe in God?
                                  believing and not believing God are same since you don't have any proof from God that you must believe in God for certain reasons... So believing in God is just passion since you are not in position accept what God has revealed... Well too many questions .isnt it?

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • N Offline
                                    N Offline
                                    Noon_waalqalami
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #21

                                    -fasting in the north pole,

                                    peace,
                                    2185 شهر lunar cycle رمضن ramadan (heat after summer solstice)

                                    the sun never sets at north pole in summer
                                    exempt per instructions below never occurs

                                    2187 وكلوا and eat ye of واشربوا and drinks ye of حتى until ىتبىن is shown لكم for you الخىط the thread الابىض the white من from الخىط the thread الاسود the black من of الفجر the dawn ثم furthermore اتموا fulfill ye of الصىم the abstinence (fast) الى to الىل the night

                                    multiple topics in a thread perhaps one at a time i.e. patience

                                    1031 والعصر and (by) the epoch/time
                                    1032 ان indeed الانسن the humankind لفى surely in خسر loss
                                    1033 الا except الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of وعملوا and work they of الصلحت the righteousness وتوصوا and exhort they of بالحق in the truth وتوصوا and exhort they of بالصبر in the patience

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • shukriS Offline
                                      shukriS Offline
                                      shukri
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #22

                                      Having a bit of a crisis of faith right now, the emotions have subsided a bit, so my writing might sound a bit too calm but I am still very much unsure of everything.

                                      You are not alone.
                                      I also had experience the same thing
                                      I even starting from scratch as an atheist/agnostic

                                      Now, let’s go back to the present day context, you can still
                                      A) Believe that The Qur’an is from God
                                      B) Believe that The Qur’an is from a Human in the 7th century

                                      Yes, I believe that the Quran must be from God.
                                      Why?
                                      Because of the verses 7430,31,35,36,37

                                      7430 Over it is nineteen
                                      7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
                                      (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
                                      (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
                                      (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
                                      (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

                                      7435 This is one of the great (miracles).
                                      7436 A warning to the human race.
                                      7437 For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.

                                      What is the Miracle of 19 stipulated in 7430,35!"
                                      The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book. Every element of the Quran is mathematically composed — the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, the unique spelling of certain words, the absence or deliberate alteration of certain letters within certain words, and many other elements of the Quran besides its content. "

                                      Simple facts https//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/simplefacts.html

                                      In surah al fatihah
                                      http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?

                                      In basmallah
                                      https//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp/bp.pdf?

                                      The most comprehensive so far
                                      https//sites.google.com/site/evidenceofgod/math-miracle/19/math-miracle-in-a-nutshell
                                      https//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/vp/contents.html?

                                      Al Quran challenge for the people in doubt
                                      223 If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against God, if you are truthful.

                                      The challenge is here ... http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?

                                      Note 1
                                      The God's signature of 19 (7430-37) is not only embedded in the Quran, but also stamped everywhere in the entire universe...

                                      1. https//submission.org/Quran_chemistry_code_19.html
                                      2. https//sites.google.com/site/evidenceofgod/golden-ratio-19
                                      3. https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8xoIXNol18

                                      4153 We will show them our proofs in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things?

                                      This God's signature of 19 proves that the Quran and everything in this universe belongs to One entity i.e. belongs to the owner of signature-19. There is God and the only One!

                                      Note 2
                                      About other things you mentioned in your post,
                                      I'm sorry, I'm not capable of discussing it here as my knowledge is minute...

                                      1785 They ask you about the revelation. Say, "The revelation comes from my Lord. The knowledge given to you is minute."

                                      Note 3
                                      And if we really believe there is God and the Quran came from Him, that's a good start for our journey AND then we just sincerely leave it to our Lord as our teacher to capture the wisdom of His message in the Quran. God willing!

                                      551 The Most Gracious
                                      552 Teacher of the Quran.

                                      Thank you.

                                      "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred"

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • WakasW Offline
                                        WakasW Offline
                                        Wakas
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #23

                                        7430 Over it is nineteen

                                        What is the Miracle of 19 stipulated in 7430,35!"
                                        The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book.

                                        The "it" in 7430 refers to a feminine object. "quran" is a masculine.

                                        All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • shukriS Offline
                                          shukriS Offline
                                          shukri
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #24

                                          The "it" in 7430 refers to a feminine object. "quran" is a masculine.

                                          Yeah, it's up to you bro.
                                          The issue of the pro and con of verse 7430 are the old story.
                                          Anybody is entitled to his choice.
                                          No need to rise here.

                                          Note Everything will come with pros and cons AND we are commanded by our Lord to choose the best one.
                                          3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

                                          Thank you.

                                          "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred"

                                          1 Reply Last reply
                                          0
                                          Reply
                                          • Reply as topic
                                          Log in to reply
                                          • Oldest to Newest
                                          • Newest to Oldest
                                          • Most Votes


                                          • Login

                                          • Don't have an account? Register

                                          • Login or register to search.
                                          • First post
                                            Last post
                                          0
                                          • Categories
                                          • Recent
                                          • Users