HELP NEEDED! Crisis of Faith: The Truthfullness of The Qur'an...

[LiberalGamer]

Peace Emre.
Thank you for your thoughts, yes I see the importance of this and while this is something that still rubs me the wrong way, I do agree with you to an extent.
However this isn't the main reason why I'm having these doubts, as I said the main reason isn't that there are things in The Qur'an that I don't understand, it's that there are things in The Qur'an that I understand more if I assume that The Qur'an isn't from God rather from a human, as much as I hate to say it.

But even still with this I Insha Allah hope to not give up on The Qur'an, it's just that, I don't know, it would be nice if there was something, a verse, a principle, a surah, which doesn't make sense if you assume it's from a human, but makes a ton of sense if you assume it's from God.
.

Peace be upon you Emre.

Peace Wakas.
Thank you for your posts, but truth be told they didn't help all that much.
No offense if you made any of these posts, but the first post... admittedly I didn't read much but it doesn't seem all to relevant, please correct me if I'm wrong tho.
But the second post, truth be told scientific miracles in the Qur'an has always felt icky to me, because of the constantly changing nature of science, so using it as proof is a bit ehh in my view, and the literally stuff is literally so subjective, I mean there are a lot of people who claim that a lot of books are wonderful in literature, that doesn't prove if it's Divine or not.
And the prophecies, alright yea this is probably the strongest of the three points, but even here some are a stretch from my view, such as the moon landing stuff.
but yea, the main reason this doesn't resonate with me is that I'm having semi-doubts on more of a principled level, and I said it before and I'll say it again
the conundrum that I'm having is the following, I guess
"if you assume that The Qur'an was written by a human, then almost everything in The Qur'an seems to be designed to benefit the author in one way or another. There doesn't seem to be any inconvenient truths in The Qur'an for the, if you believe so, human author, rather everything seems to align with what a human who would fabricate a text of this magnitude would desire."

But thank you for your post either way, Peace be upon you.

Peace hawk99.
Thank you for your post, your question is truthfully very meaningful.
Admittedly there are a lot of things I hope for, I guess, and admittedly I am staggering a bit in what I want for myself, but to answer your question, 'What would I want from Allah swt."', I would say, more or less

-To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves.

For most of the time The Qur'an served this purpose, and admittedly I came across a lot of conundrums, but now with this conundrum I'm doubting if following The Qur'an would be following what God Wants for us, I do believe He is Merciful , so I'm not saying that anyone who follows The Qur'an would get punished, rather I'm saying if God didn't send down The Qur'an, then I'd rather spend my time elsewhere trying to find what He wants for us, then to use that time interpenetrating The Qur'an, assuming it's falsehood...

I hope I got across what I was going to say...

Peace be upon you hawk, and thank you for your post

[Emre_1974tr]

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611564.0

Peace

[hawk99]

Peace hawk99.
Thank you for your post, your question is truthfully very meaningful.
Admittedly there are a lot of things I hope for, I guess, and admittedly I am staggering a bit in what I want for myself, but to answer your question, 'What would I want from Allah swt."', I would say, more or less

-To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves.

For most of the time The Qur'an served this purpose, and admittedly I came across a lot of conundrums, but now with this conundrum I'm doubting if following The Qur'an would be following what God Wants for us, I do believe He is Merciful , so I'm not saying that anyone who follows The Qur'an would get punished, rather I'm saying if God didn't send down The Qur'an, then I'd rather spend my time elsewhere trying to find what He wants for us, then to use that time interpenetrating The Qur'an, assuming it's falsehood...

I hope I got across what I was going to say...

Peace be upon you hawk, and thank you for your post

Peace LiberalGamer, now that your have answered the question "What do I want from Allah" and you replied "To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves." The next step is to find via Quran how to accomplish your goals.

Here's one example
2177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.

God bless you

peace

[jkhan]

Peace jkhan, thank you for your reply.

I suppose you're right on the first point, truth be told I would say among all of the other ones, the main reason I do believe in the existence of God is due to His Guidance, I suppose I just have this natural inclination to believe in God, the atheists might say it's because of the fear of the unknown or whatever like that and tbh I don't think that's it, I can't pinpoint exactly why, but I will admit that I don't believe in God on purely 100% rational reasoning alone.

1....anyway... I am a bit confused on your second point, more specifically "Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn’t possibly from the God that you believe 100%. ", don't really know what you mean, but if you mean what I think you mean then yea, I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is not from God, but unfortunately I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is from God either.

"then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist", yea, I guess I did, but tbh I think I did always have this sorta inclination, maybe.
Like the inclination that even if The Qur'an ends up being a complete hoax, that that won't fully destroy my faith in God, because I believe that the concept of The Creator, that God surprasses my understanding of The Qur'an.

2....."To grasp this one cannot have blind faith… like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn’t make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
Well, I don't know, honestly, but I have to ask what's wrong with blind faith? isn't all faith blind? I dunno dude, like I think I understand you, but I don't know if I agree.
Because like listen, here's my view
Either Islam / The Qur'an is a Universal Religion or a Local Religion.

A Local Religion would mean that it's like every other religion, you have this book, you accept this book, you accept the beliefs, you're good, and that's that, and if you don't accept the book well you can get another religion, and tbh I'm a bit against this, beacuse it seems like every religion is like this, especially including sunni islam, you either accept the doctrines or you leave, it seems based on faith alone.

3.....But A Universal Religion would be something that has principles which are universally applied, mythology that can be reasoned towards, and to me The Qur'an Alone view seemed to really lean in this direction, with verses like 262 ... and stuff like that.
And honestly it still does seem to lean in that direction which is why I believe it to be closer to the truth then the other religions, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because if you believe that it is a universal religion, as I do, then you believe that you can reason for it's idea of God even without having it directly, because it is the truth, and if you believe that, then we're just back where we started, because we've concluded outside of any religious text that God exists, but that doesn't prove the validity of one text above another, I guess, idk honestly.
"the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
I would and I will still try, God Willingly, but it seems like the answer to my conundrum is just "if you don't believe The Prophet is A Prophet, then you're in for a painful punishment"

And finally for your last point, thanks for your response, but truth be told I think I didn't really convey what I wanted to convey clearly, I've tried to convey it more clearly down below in the semi last paragraph.

"Glad Tidings for whom? For Human being.. so it is something that is pleasant for entire human being… it is not the desire of Prophet alone… "
I know, and I do agree like, if this is sent from God it is glad tidings and warnings as well... but the problem is is that this is only the case if you assume that this is the truth, and not a fabriciation that the messenger made up.
If you assume that it is not the truth, then the 'glad tidings' are not really glad at all since they're not truthful, rather they are false hopes to get his followers to follow him, y'know, that's what I'm trying to get at, if it's false it benefits the prophet, if it's true it benefits the people and the prophet, but the fact is is that if it's false it does still benefit the prophet.

Bear with me because this
"For example… Prophet never wanted to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife… These are not lies… coz these incidents were active in the society… Prophet is shy but not God… What if when Prophet said to his fostered son keep your wife and if his fostered son agreed thinking it is a message from God… Is that a desire of any father to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife? So that desire of prophet aligned with God’s? Well… that’s a blasphemy… isn’t it?""
But here's the thing, if you assume that The Qur'an is fabricated, and that Mohamed was making stuff up, then this does make sense once again.
Mohamed would've wanted to marry his adopted's son ex wife, and then since, in this lens, he fabricated The Qur'an, he could easily claim that God said that he has to marry his adpoted's son ex wife.
I mean to provide an alternative if God said no to him marrying his adopted's son's wife, wouldn't that be more powerful? That would mean that if he really was fabricating stuff, he would be forbidding stuff that he wanted to do, which makes no sense, so in that case it is more logical to assume that at the very least he wasn't maliciously fabricating stuff.
Hope you understood what I'm trying to say.

"When Quran says, All messengers are same and don’t make any distinction with one another… What benefit for Prophet by this verse? Why can’t he make himself more elite than rest of the prophets… Why verse doesn’t state Mohamed is the best prophet ….. you know everyone human has a tendency to have a grip over others.. isn’t it.. Why Mohamed as a messenger is equal with others? Why there is no verse to indicate saying God directly spoke to Mohamed like God talked to Musa? Such things should be desire of Mohamed if he in fact forge verses.."
But you see that's the problem, while at first this seems like a good point, here's the thing
No other messenger is/was alive at the time of Mohamed.
So when Mohamed claims that he is no more elite then any other Messenger, while that sounds good at first, it literally doesn't affect him because there is no other messenger alive that would take from his elite-ness.
This verse, if you assume it's a fabrication, would basically be saying "Messengers are more elite then normal people, I'm not better then any other messenger, but I'm also the only alive messenger, therefore I am the only elite person alive"
It ultimately doesn't affect him, all it does is once again benefit him because his followers could claim what you are claiming.

"Still if you are not convinced, let me ask in this manner…. As per you, you do believe in God.. That’s great… So, are you saying that God is silent without letting his Creations know that He wants us to behave in such and such manner? So we are free creatures to do whatever we feel right since Quran or Torah or any other book or Messengers who came before all liar possibly…"
This... honestly is a good question, but it's still not really anything super solid, because you could apply the same thing to the people who didn't have The Qur'an for the last millenium or so, people in japan or rural africa who never heard of The Qur'an, what about them?
But yea no this is still a good question.

Thank you for bearing with me and honestly I did once again approach this in a negative manner, apologies for that, I am eagerly awaiting your reply and I hope I wasn't too harsh...

Honestly I did ramble quite a bit, if you wish to respond, and I would appreciate that, here would be the main thing I'd like your view on, my main conundrum so far in a nutshell, I guess
'If you assume that The Qur'an is inspired by God, a lot of things make sense... but there are also a lot of things don't line up, like killing / war, worldy life, etc.
But if you assume that The Qur'an is written by a human living in the 7th century, a lot more things make sense, and the things that previously made sense seem to make more sense through this lens. Hell, Killing / War, Worldy Life, Punishments, Threats, that's my main conundrum, the fact that, if you believe it is from God, 60% of things make sense, 40% of things don't make sense, and if you assume it's from a human from the 7th century, it seems like 95% of the things make sense, 5% of the things maybe don't make sense.

So my question in a nutshell is, are there any verses / themes / principles from The Qur'an that, should it be viewed from a human 7th century lens, just wouldn't make sense at all for it being there, but should it be viewed from the 'Inspired by God' lens, it makes a lot more sense?'

Thank you for your reply honestly and apologies if I misconstrued anything you said, truth be told I am having a bit of difficulty understanding what you're trying to get across, but I hope I understood the main points you were making.
Peace.

1... I meant by 100% not Quran but God.. Coz you accepted that you believe in God 100%. ... I know you don't believe in Quran 100% that's why you are here raising your questions...

2... Not everything is blind faith... How would you rationalize that... Blind faith is mere faith and never ever interested dig deep in to what one have faith and it is totally prejudiced and keeping away from making complaints against faith.. For example conventional Muslims... They love the way their Religion is... And not raise questions againat their fundamentals.. They are happy with it... That's blind faith... But, the one who questions everything and grasp and find the truth and have faith on it... For example no one has seen God.. If anyone believe in God OR Goddess of multiple gods all can be listed as blind faith.. But how one realizes that having a God is imperative by reasoning everything is not blind faith... Faith is never blind if you unblind what actually is blind.. That's what conventional Muslims failed.. Most of their faith is Right.. But blind coz they are happy with what is blind..

3... I don't know why you claim universal religion... God's guidance is common... Coz He wants people to choose the right path and not the path He doesn't prefer... It is not a religion local or universal.. Coz He kept human being on this Earth... He never changes His sunna.. He never changes the basic... Nuh would have lived thousands year back compared to Muhamed.. But if both go to Janna if means they have maintained the basics which is right path...

In addition... Japan or Mexico or whatever.. The Creator knows whom to guide.. Fisherman knows where to fish... Or else just don't search your lost wallet just coz light is just leaving the place you actually lost it coz of darkness..
So dude.. Let God do His part of guiding peole and misguiding them... He knows what He does..

If He destroy sending a Tsunami thousands of people He knows why He does so. Is our kindness is more powerful than His Mercy so that we ask why God kils innocent or why God orders to Fight and kill... He knows what is unseen to us.. It is not merely visual part... But every aspect...

That's why I was wondering why Some prophets names are missing.. God took a covenant with five prophets.. Nuh, Ibrahim musa Isa and Mohamed.. Why at least in this list a Japanese name or Chinese or South American OR Russian or central African OR aborigines... Coz.. He knows where his guided people are living. He favored for sure... Okay no need all prophets names.. But why at least couple of names in this covenant from Chinese prophets.. Isn't it something to ponder..

I Inshalla respond your new set of questions over the weekend.
If you are finding hard to grasp the way I write pls bear with me.. Coz I always write in normal dialogue style.. Thank you...

[good_logic]

So why worry about what a human writes? Does it matter if a book warns me about hell after I die or rewards me with paradise or cares about my well being or does not care, what would a human know about death or after I die?
If Qoran was written by human/s ,then the argument is closed. Do not take any notice
So what is the issue then? If you prove to yourself that Qoran is authored by humans , there is no issue. Humans tell lies and some truth. exaggerate, make up stuff and lack deep knowledge about life and death and have no idea about after death.

Or what is it about Qoran that is telling your instinct this book may not be written by human/s?
Only then, one can start to ponder. Look at this book with interest and only then doubts start to form and grow.

For me, after this decision to look sincerely and with honesty at the book things will start to unfold in a way you cannot completely control or understand at first ,then you find yourself on a journey talking to empty rooms, walls fresh air yourself.. like you are having a conversation with the author of this book why?
I find it a live book ,challenging me to change my attitude and better myself in every way i can ,walking with me everywhere I go and being my friend , my helper my guide, my key to all aspects of my life , like its author is directing and taking over my life and me willingly let in it happen .I can clearly see the benefit and good in it in my situation.
I now see that the relationship with GOD is facilitated and consolidated by the contents and instructions in this book and the change is real .
This important side then helps me to sort out some of the issues I come across some verses. There is always more to do and more to know.
It will be ongoing as part of the journey..
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

[jkhan]

So why worry about what a human writes? Does it matter if a book warns me about hell after I die or rewards me with paradise or cares about my well being or does not care, what would a human know about death or after I die?
If Qoran was written by human/s ,then the argument is closed. Do not take any notice
So what is the issue then? If you prove to yourself that Qoran is authored by humans , there is no issue. Humans tell lies and some truth. exaggerate, make up stuff and lack deep knowledge about life and death and have no idea about after death.

Or what is it about Qoran that is telling your instinct this book may not be written by human/s?
Only then, one can start to ponder. Look at this book with interest and only then doubts start to form and grow.

For me, after this decision to look sincerely and with honesty at the book things will start to unfold in a way you cannot completely control or understand at first ,then you find yourself on a journey talking to empty rooms, walls fresh air yourself.. like you are having a conversation with the author of this book why?
I find it a live book ,challenging me to change my attitude and better myself in every way i can ,walking with me everywhere I go and being my friend , my helper my guide, my key to all aspects of my life , like its author is directing and taking over my life and me willingly let in it happen .I can clearly see the benefit and good in it in my situation.
I now see that the relationship with GOD is facilitated and consolidated by the contents and instructions in this book and the change is real .
This important side then helps me to sort out some of the issues I come across some verses. There is always more to do and more to know.
It will be ongoing as part of the journey..
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Yes.. It has some well constituted questions...

I would like to ask a short question from the initiator of this topic just to curtail long argument and in the end would perhaps terminate nowhere,
So my simole question is how would you cope up with Belief in God if you are satisfied that all books were inventions of human and no messengers came to reveal anything which came from God?
Do you think you would be able to sustain your faith of God in just believing God and His existence..
So if we group the entire human race.. We possibly can make them into two.. Those who believe in God and Those who don't believe in God... So you belong to to the former.. Is this enough?
I am afraid, I am extending my questions, but inevitable.. Don't you think since you believe in God that He would have heralded some messages to His creations... At least to say Why He created us? So you believe in God and you don't know from the side of God why He created us coz for you God has not sent any message but human invented.. So as believer in God why you are here on this Earth ? Is it left for you to just speculate..
Deeply ponder brother / sister.. I am sure you have good knowledge but not applied it in right way... .

[Wakas]

peace,

No offense if you made any of these posts, but the first post... admittedly I didn't read much but it doesn't seem all to relevant, please correct me if I'm wrong tho.

Seems relevant to me. You said you believe in God but perhaps not Quran which would likely make you a muslim NOT a mumin. Understanding the difference is a simple yet important concept. I recommend actually reading the article in full.

But the second post, truth be told scientific miracles in the Qur'an has always felt icky to me, because of the constantly changing nature of science, so using it as proof is a bit ehh in my view, and the literally stuff is literally so subjective, I mean there are a lot of people who claim that a lot of books are wonderful in literature, that doesn't prove if it's Divine or not.
And the prophecies, alright yea this is probably the strongest of the three points, but even here some are a stretch from my view, such as the moon landing stuff.
but yea, the main reason this doesn't resonate with me is that I'm having semi-doubts on more of a principled level, and I said it before and I'll say it again

Yes science changes but if something is true then it's still true 100 years from now. Could a person "guess" right once, twice, thrice......... etc until one is forced to ask how likely is this, hence the probability discussion in the article. Literary excellence is subjective but the point is literary scholars/academics are pretty unanimous in describing Quran as an outstanding example of Arabic prose. The beauty of the article is it asks you to plug in whatever probabilities you think are fair then calculate them at the end (I assume you never did that).

the conundrum that I'm having is the following, I guess
"if you assume that The Qur'an was written by a human, then almost everything in The Qur'an seems to be designed to benefit the author in one way or another. There doesn't seem to be any inconvenient truths in The Qur'an for the, if you believe so, human author, rather everything seems to align with what a human who would fabricate a text of this magnitude would desire."

Muhammad never took credit for writing it and is criticised in it multiple times, e.g. 18110, 3337, 801, 867, 943, 661.

[jkhan]

Yes.. It has some well constituted questions...

I would like to ask a short question from the initiator of this topic just to curtail long argument and in the end would perhaps terminate nowhere,
So my simole question is how would you cope up with Belief in God if you are satisfied that all books were inventions of human and no messengers came to reveal anything which came from God?
Do you think you would be able to sustain your faith of God in just believing God and His existence..
So if we group the entire human race.. We possibly can make them into two.. Those who believe in God and Those who don't believe in God... So you belong to to the former.. Is this enough?
I am afraid, I am extending my questions, but inevitable.. Don't you think since you believe in God that He would have heralded some messages to His creations... At least to say Why He created us? So you believe in God and you don't know from the side of God why He created us coz for you God has not sent any message but human invented.. So as believer in God why you are here on this Earth ? Is it left for you to just speculate..
Deeply ponder brother / sister.. I am sure you have good knowledge but not applied it in right way... .

I would like to this thread couple of more concerns..
If you believe in God 100% what benefit for you?
How would you explain to anyone who wishes to believe in God your phylosopy so that they may believe in God?
believing and not believing God are same since you don't have any proof from God that you must believe in God for certain reasons... So believing in God is just passion since you are not in position accept what God has revealed... Well too many questions .isnt it?

[Noon_waalqalami]

-fasting in the north pole,

peace,
2185 شهر lunar cycle رمضن ramadan (heat after summer solstice)

the sun never sets at north pole in summer
exempt per instructions below never occurs

2187 وكلوا and eat ye of واشربوا and drinks ye of حتى until ىتبىن is shown لكم for you الخىط the thread الابىض the white من from الخىط the thread الاسود the black من of الفجر the dawn ثم furthermore اتموا fulfill ye of الصىم the abstinence (fast) الى to الىل the night

multiple topics in a thread perhaps one at a time i.e. patience

1031 والعصر and (by) the epoch/time
1032 ان indeed الانسن the humankind لفى surely in خسر loss
1033 الا except الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of وعملوا and work they of الصلحت the righteousness وتوصوا and exhort they of بالحق in the truth وتوصوا and exhort they of بالصبر in the patience

[shukri]

Having a bit of a crisis of faith right now, the emotions have subsided a bit, so my writing might sound a bit too calm but I am still very much unsure of everything.

You are not alone.
I also had experience the same thing
I even starting from scratch as an atheist/agnostic

Now, let’s go back to the present day context, you can still
A) Believe that The Qur’an is from God
B) Believe that The Qur’an is from a Human in the 7th century

Yes, I believe that the Quran must be from God.
Why?
Because of the verses 7430,31,35,36,37

7430 Over it is nineteen
7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

7435 This is one of the great (miracles).
7436 A warning to the human race.
7437 For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.

What is the Miracle of 19 stipulated in 7430,35!"
The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book. Every element of the Quran is mathematically composed — the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, the unique spelling of certain words, the absence or deliberate alteration of certain letters within certain words, and many other elements of the Quran besides its content. "

Simple facts https//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/simplefacts.html

In surah al fatihah
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?

In basmallah
https//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp/bp.pdf?

The most comprehensive so far
https//sites.google.com/site/evidenceofgod/math-miracle/19/math-miracle-in-a-nutshell
https//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/vp/contents.html?

Al Quran challenge for the people in doubt
223 If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against God, if you are truthful.

The challenge is here ... http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?

Note 1
The God's signature of 19 (7430-37) is not only embedded in the Quran, but also stamped everywhere in the entire universe...

1. https//submission.org/Quran_chemistry_code_19.html
2. https//sites.google.com/site/evidenceofgod/golden-ratio-19
3. https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8xoIXNol18

4153 We will show them our proofs in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things?

This God's signature of 19 proves that the Quran and everything in this universe belongs to One entity i.e. belongs to the owner of signature-19. There is God and the only One!

Note 2
About other things you mentioned in your post,
I'm sorry, I'm not capable of discussing it here as my knowledge is minute...

1785 They ask you about the revelation. Say, "The revelation comes from my Lord. The knowledge given to you is minute."

Note 3
And if we really believe there is God and the Quran came from Him, that's a good start for our journey AND then we just sincerely leave it to our Lord as our teacher to capture the wisdom of His message in the Quran. God willing!

551 The Most Gracious
552 Teacher of the Quran.

Thank you.

[Wakas]

7430 Over it is nineteen

What is the Miracle of 19 stipulated in 7430,35!"
The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book.

The "it" in 7430 refers to a feminine object. "quran" is a masculine.

[shukri]

The "it" in 7430 refers to a feminine object. "quran" is a masculine.

Yeah, it's up to you bro.
The issue of the pro and con of verse 7430 are the old story.
Anybody is entitled to his choice.
No need to rise here.

Note Everything will come with pros and cons AND we are commanded by our Lord to choose the best one.
3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Thank you.

[shukri]

The "it" in 7430 refers to a feminine object. "quran" is a masculine.

Just to show an argument of the word "it".

Some say that the word "it" in verse 7430 is referring to the word "Hell" (a feminine object) in verse 7431
7430 Over it (Hell) is nineteen.
7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell (it), and we assigned their number to disturb the disbelievers, to convince the Christians and Jews...

Anyway I do not know arabic and cannot say who is right, who is wrong.
BUT I think this argument is the best (in my opinion) to explain the word "it" in verse 7430.

Thank you

[jkhan]

Just to show an argument of the word "it".

Some say that the word "it" in verse 7430 is referring to the word "Hell" (a feminine object) in verse 7431
7430 Over it (Hell) is nineteen.
7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell (it), and we assigned their number to disturb the disbelievers, to convince the Christians and Jews...

Anyway I do not know arabic and cannot say who is right, who is wrong.
BUT I think this argument is the best (in my opinion) to explain the word "it" in verse 7430.

Thank you

Peace..
Of course the word IT refers to Hell.. And what is the issue here?
Nothing... If anyone has any issue let them detail rather than just rhetorically question..
19 is incontrovertiblly the guardian of Quran like the guardians of Hell are 19 ..Why Hell needs Guardians? Are those who are living in it are powerful to escape from it? But they can distort Hell. They can live as they want.. But guardians won't let it happen.. They ensure they deserve their punishment...
There is no grammar issue here.. They only think so.. But useless their effort is...
Iddah of 19 is a different matter... And Hell and 19 angels is different... That's future... Is it happening? No.. But does the idda of 19 happens? Yes... It does... It happens and and the predicted outcome / listed matters are also happening...

Further, I would like to ask this question again...
Would you anyone think that these verses of chapter 7430-35 would have increased the faith of believers duirng the time of Mohamed? If Yes why? How could it have increased.. What is the reason behind it..?
Does these verses increase the faith of believers now? Yes.. I don't if all people who believers, but whoever does believe in this has increased their faith... Including me..

[good_logic]

Qoran is masculine Revelation-Ayatan- is feminine.
GOD uses both Qoran and revelation for Qoran
16101
Revelation-feminine-
When we substitute one revelation in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, "You made this up!" Indeed, most of them do not know.
وَإِذا بَدَّلنا ءايَةً مَكانَ ءايَةٍ وَاللَّهُ أَعلَمُ بِما يُنَزِّلُ قالوا إِنَّما أَنتَ مُفتَرٍ بَل أَكثَرُهُم لا يَعلَمونَ
Or
1602
Qoran-masculine
Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."
قُل نَزَّلَهُ روحُ القُدُسِ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَهُدًى وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ

Over it-the revelation/Ayatian, feminine- is 19, why not?.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Over it-the revelation/Ayatian, feminine- is 19, why not?.

peace gl nope learn basic gender, numbers, and "context" is your friend!

482 افلا do so not ىتدبرون they reflecting القرن the Qur’an (masculine)
ولو and in case كان was من from عند with غىر other than الله the God
لوجدوا surely found they of فىه in it (m) اختلفا divergences كثىرا much of

17101 تسع tisa/nine (m) اىت signs (f)
2748 تسعه tisatu/group of nine (f) رهط chieftains (m)

247 علىه alayhi/upon him (m)
249 علىها alayha/upon her (f)

666 علىها alayha/over it (f) ملىكه controllers/angels (masculine)
7430 علىها alayha/over it (f) تسعه group of nine (f) عشر ten (m) {group of nineteen (masculine)}

عَلَيْهَا تِسْعَةَ عَشَرَ جُنُودًا over her/it (f) group of nineteen soldiers (masculine)

عَلَيْهَا تِسْعَ عَشْرةَ استاذةً over her/it (f) group of nineteen teachers (feminine)

[good_logic]

And context is ignored in 7431?.
We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
وَما جَعَلنا أَصحٰبَ النّارِ إِلّا مَلٰئِكَةً وَما جَعَلنا عِدَّتَهُم إِلّا فِتنَةً لِلَّذينَ كَفَروا لِيَستَيقِنَ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ وَيَزدادَ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا إيمٰنًا وَلا يَرتابَ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ وَالمُؤمِنونَ وَلِيَقولَ الَّذينَ فى قُلوبِهِم مَرَضٌ وَالكٰفِرونَ ماذا أَرادَ اللَّهُ بِهٰذا مَثَلًا كَذٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشاءُ وَيَهدى مَن يَشاءُ وَما يَعلَمُ جُنودَ رَبِّكَ إِلّا هُوَ وَما هِىَ إِلّا ذِكرىٰ لِلبَشَرِ

So according to you, the group of 19 Angels /guardians of hell are strengthening your faith and convincing the Jews and Christians that tQoran is divine?

And according to me, code/Mathematical composition/interlock of the Qoran is strengthening my faith and convincing some Jews and Christians that Qoran is divine.
And I have no idea how these Angels are doing these to anyone,, but I can witness and see the number composition clearly doing these to various folks.
So, to you your context and to me my context.
GOD bless you brother Noon.
Peace.

[good_logic]

Peace All.
There is more to come from the numerical structure of Qoran There is more to discover.
Here are some verses from Qoran that cannot be ignored

Those who possess no knowledge say, "If only God could speak to us, or some miracle could come to us!" Others before them have uttered similar utterances; their minds are similar. We do manifest the miracles for those who have attained certainty.

And remind, for the reminder benefits the believers.

Therefore, you shall remind; perhaps the reminder will benefit.
The reverent will take heed.
The wicked will avoid it.

What is the reminder?

The Qoran's Common Denominator(19 guardians of hell do not make sense?!!!)

Over it is nineteen.
We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.
And the night as it passes.
And the morning as it shines.

One of the Great Miracles
This is one of the great miracles.
A warning to the human race.
For those among you who wish to advance, or regress

Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.*

The perfect preservation is a process that can only be achieved by putting the miracle into application. Some are in the state of denial, believing/ thinking that the preservation is complete per 159.
The Ultimate Miracle
The Qoran's Mathematical Code.
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that God is Omnipotent?
( Surely you do not think this "ayatin" in here means verse/s?!!!)
*2106 The Quran's mathematical miracle is perpetual & greater than previous miracles (3445, 7435). Like the Qoran itself, it confirms, consummates, and supersedes all previous miracles.

Indeed, it is a glorious Quran.
In a preserved master tablet.

The System
We did not send before you any messenger, nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. God then nullifies what the devil has done. God perfects His revelations. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.

• *2252 Throughout this worldly test, Satan is allowed to present his point of view . This allows the people to make a choice between God's evidence and Satan's evidence. Satan's evidence is invariably based on lies. This system explains the fact that the devil's agents continuously come up with the most absurd lies, insults and accusations against every messenger (see 633-34, 830, 1776-77, 2770).

Those before them disbelieved, and even though they did not see one-tenth* of (the miracle) we have given to this generation, when they disbelieved My messengers, how severe was My retribution!

*3445 The great miracles given to Moses and Jesus were limited in time and place; they were witnessed by a few people who happened to exist in that place at that time. But the mathematical miracle of the Qoran is perpetual (see 7430-35)

It's God's supreme plan to bless our generation and the generations to come, until the end of the world, with the divine, verifiable and a mathematical built-in structure within the Qoran's Arabic text. God s letters and words prove beyond doubt its divine authorship and authenticity.

Or do you have a better explanation for these verses and other verses like{4610, 541-2, 4413...etc}?

But of course the choice is there believe or do not believe!

Among our creations, there are those who guide with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

Do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor shall you conceal the truth, knowingly.

Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."

They want to put out God's light with their mouths, but God insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers.

But of course believing the message and following the straight path is the ultimate aim to unite all the believers.
GOD bles you all.
Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

So according to you, the group of 19 Angels /guardians of hell are strengthening your faith and convincing the Jews and Christians that tQoran is divine?

peace gl, again basic reading not today's infatuation with multiple hunting

I arrived at certainty due to single "meem" in word ما ma/what below

412 ولكم and for you نصف half ما ma/what ترك left ازوجكم spouses yours ...
فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما mimma/from what تركن left they (f/p)

لهن and for them الربع the fourth مما mimma/from what تركتم left you
... فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما mimma/from what تركتم left you

likewise "in context" was obviously applicable back then
7430 clearly refers to group of nineteen (m) angels 666

7431
ولىقول and to sayeth الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting
"ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the God بهذا in this مثلا similitude of?"
كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the God من whom ىشا willed of وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed of

likewise with mosquito

226
واما and as for الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of فىقولون so sayeth being
“ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the God بهذا in this مثلا similitude of?”
ىضل misguided به with it كثىرا many of وىهدى and guided به with it كثىرا many of

if you want to remove verses, not learn to read, flip digits hunt multiples up to you

peace!

[shukri]

Bro Noon,

This thread is not meant to discuss the details of Code 19.
The discussion on it has been done on various threads of this forum.
We are here to give the answer or give the possible solution to our friend Bro "LiberalGamer" on his crisis of faith regarding the Quran.
Please give your focus to this issue and pay attention to his arguments.
I know you are a very knowledgeable person and have the expertise to answer all the points raised by Bro "LiberalGame". Don't you!