HELP NEEDED! Crisis of Faith: The Truthfullness of The Qur'an...

Emre_1974tr

Again

Everyone is free to believe what they wish, according to Quran. This is the goal of the test world. To confront yourself.

Quran only allows a war of defense.

If you read the full of the verses, you will always see the struggle with the attackers in the defense battle.

Example;

2190 Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.

2191 Fight them wherever you meet them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. Do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then fight them. Thus is the reward of those who do not appreciate.

2192 If they cease, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

2193 Fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

Here again, He says, fight with the attackers.

But if you pull out a single verse. You make it look like saying the opposite.

And look at

499 And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with the command of God. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.

As you can see saying, if the attackers are Muslims, stop them too.

LiberalGamer

Peace jkhan, thank you for your reply.

I suppose you're right on the first point, truth be told I would say among all of the other ones, the main reason I do believe in the existence of God is due to His Guidance, I suppose I just have this natural inclination to believe in God, the atheists might say it's because of the fear of the unknown or whatever like that and tbh I don't think that's it, I can't pinpoint exactly why, but I will admit that I don't believe in God on purely 100% rational reasoning alone.

anyway... I am a bit confused on your second point, more specifically "Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn’t possibly from the God that you believe 100%. ", don't really know what you mean, but if you mean what I think you mean then yea, I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is not from God, but unfortunately I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is from God either.

"then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist", yea, I guess I did, but tbh I think I did always have this sorta inclination, maybe.
Like the inclination that even if The Qur'an ends up being a complete hoax, that that won't fully destroy my faith in God, because I believe that the concept of The Creator, that God surprasses my understanding of The Qur'an.

"To grasp this one cannot have blind faith… like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn’t make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
Well, I don't know, honestly, but I have to ask what's wrong with blind faith? isn't all faith blind? I dunno dude, like I think I understand you, but I don't know if I agree.
Because like listen, here's my view
Either Islam / The Qur'an is a Universal Religion or a Local Religion.

A Local Religion would mean that it's like every other religion, you have this book, you accept this book, you accept the beliefs, you're good, and that's that, and if you don't accept the book well you can get another religion, and tbh I'm a bit against this, beacuse it seems like every religion is like this, especially including sunni islam, you either accept the doctrines or you leave, it seems based on faith alone.

But A Universal Religion would be something that has principles which are universally applied, mythology that can be reasoned towards, and to me The Qur'an Alone view seemed to really lean in this direction, with verses like 262 ... and stuff like that.
And honestly it still does seem to lean in that direction which is why I believe it to be closer to the truth then the other religions, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because if you believe that it is a universal religion, as I do, then you believe that you can reason for it's idea of God even without having it directly, because it is the truth, and if you believe that, then we're just back where we started, because we've concluded outside of any religious text that God exists, but that doesn't prove the validity of one text above another, I guess, idk honestly.
"the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
I would and I will still try, God Willingly, but it seems like the answer to my conundrum is just "if you don't believe The Prophet is A Prophet, then you're in for a painful punishment"

And finally for your last point, thanks for your response, but truth be told I think I didn't really convey what I wanted to convey clearly, I've tried to convey it more clearly down below in the semi last paragraph.

"Glad Tidings for whom? For Human being.. so it is something that is pleasant for entire human being… it is not the desire of Prophet alone… "
I know, and I do agree like, if this is sent from God it is glad tidings and warnings as well... but the problem is is that this is only the case if you assume that this is the truth, and not a fabriciation that the messenger made up.
If you assume that it is not the truth, then the 'glad tidings' are not really glad at all since they're not truthful, rather they are false hopes to get his followers to follow him, y'know, that's what I'm trying to get at, if it's false it benefits the prophet, if it's true it benefits the people and the prophet, but the fact is is that if it's false it does still benefit the prophet.

Bear with me because this
"For example… Prophet never wanted to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife… These are not lies… coz these incidents were active in the society… Prophet is shy but not God… What if when Prophet said to his fostered son keep your wife and if his fostered son agreed thinking it is a message from God… Is that a desire of any father to marry his fostered son’s ex-wife? So that desire of prophet aligned with God’s? Well… that’s a blasphemy… isn’t it?""
But here's the thing, if you assume that The Qur'an is fabricated, and that Mohamed was making stuff up, then this does make sense once again.
Mohamed would've wanted to marry his adopted's son ex wife, and then since, in this lens, he fabricated The Qur'an, he could easily claim that God said that he has to marry his adpoted's son ex wife.
I mean to provide an alternative if God said no to him marrying his adopted's son's wife, wouldn't that be more powerful? That would mean that if he really was fabricating stuff, he would be forbidding stuff that he wanted to do, which makes no sense, so in that case it is more logical to assume that at the very least he wasn't maliciously fabricating stuff.
Hope you understood what I'm trying to say.

"When Quran says, All messengers are same and don’t make any distinction with one another… What benefit for Prophet by this verse? Why can’t he make himself more elite than rest of the prophets… Why verse doesn’t state Mohamed is the best prophet ….. you know everyone human has a tendency to have a grip over others.. isn’t it.. Why Mohamed as a messenger is equal with others? Why there is no verse to indicate saying God directly spoke to Mohamed like God talked to Musa? Such things should be desire of Mohamed if he in fact forge verses.."
But you see that's the problem, while at first this seems like a good point, here's the thing
No other messenger is/was alive at the time of Mohamed.
So when Mohamed claims that he is no more elite then any other Messenger, while that sounds good at first, it literally doesn't affect him because there is no other messenger alive that would take from his elite-ness.
This verse, if you assume it's a fabrication, would basically be saying "Messengers are more elite then normal people, I'm not better then any other messenger, but I'm also the only alive messenger, therefore I am the only elite person alive"
It ultimately doesn't affect him, all it does is once again benefit him because his followers could claim what you are claiming.

"Still if you are not convinced, let me ask in this manner…. As per you, you do believe in God.. That’s great… So, are you saying that God is silent without letting his Creations know that He wants us to behave in such and such manner? So we are free creatures to do whatever we feel right since Quran or Torah or any other book or Messengers who came before all liar possibly…"
This... honestly is a good question, but it's still not really anything super solid, because you could apply the same thing to the people who didn't have The Qur'an for the last millenium or so, people in japan or rural africa who never heard of The Qur'an, what about them?
But yea no this is still a good question.

Thank you for bearing with me and honestly I did once again approach this in a negative manner, apologies for that, I am eagerly awaiting your reply and I hope I wasn't too harsh...

Honestly I did ramble quite a bit, if you wish to respond, and I would appreciate that, here would be the main thing I'd like your view on, my main conundrum so far in a nutshell, I guess
'If you assume that The Qur'an is inspired by God, a lot of things make sense... but there are also a lot of things don't line up, like killing / war, worldy life, etc.
But if you assume that The Qur'an is written by a human living in the 7th century, a lot more things make sense, and the things that previously made sense seem to make more sense through this lens. Hell, Killing / War, Worldy Life, Punishments, Threats, that's my main conundrum, the fact that, if you believe it is from God, 60% of things make sense, 40% of things don't make sense, and if you assume it's from a human from the 7th century, it seems like 95% of the things make sense, 5% of the things maybe don't make sense.

So my question in a nutshell is, are there any verses / themes / principles from The Qur'an that, should it be viewed from a human 7th century lens, just wouldn't make sense at all for it being there, but should it be viewed from the 'Inspired by God' lens, it makes a lot more sense?'

Thank you for your reply honestly and apologies if I misconstrued anything you said, truth be told I am having a bit of difficulty understanding what you're trying to get across, but I hope I understood the main points you were making.
Peace.

LiberalGamer

Peace emre.

Yes I do see and honestly I do agree, the verses you brought up are cool.
But I still can't lie when I say that, when I read the 8th, 9th, 33rd, or 59th surah, they still seem rather cruel...

But that's not even my main point, my main point is that, idk honestly, I might very well be mistaken, but a lot of these things, the calls to fight back and all that seem written from a human perspective I guess idk, rather then from God's.
I mean God constantly talks about those in patience, and talks about how ultimately this life is just a very short life, and the hereafter is the true home, because it's literally for eternity, but then when The Prophet pbuh and the believers get attacked, all of a sudden God says to fight back?

Like think about it this way, if The Prophet and the believers were never attacked, would those violent verses exist? And if the answer is no, then that seems really unfair

It seems way too reactionary, like times are peaceful The Qur'an is advocating for patience and doing good even in hardship, times turn violent and all of a sudden it's now "fight back", I don't know honestly

In a nutshell it seems like the principle of patience wasn't applied universally, but I don't know honestly I am not in a very good place right now and I think my reasoning and approach is very flawed, I look forward to hearing your response.
Peace.

Emre_1974tr

Peace LiberalGamer

The verses clearly teach that it is right to defend yourself. It is even stated that it is necessary in some cases. Because being a bystander to oppression and oppressing oneself is also cruelty.

By the way, the permission to cut the hands and legs diagonally mentioned in verse 533 is also self-defense and retaliation

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609989.msg412402;topicseen#msg412402

And; If this permission was not mentioned in the verses, this time Muslims would not be able to defend themselves at all. Because in other verses it is stated that killing is a great sin. Those who read the Qur'an would think that war in self-defense is also prohibited this time, if it was not told that war is allowed in special circumstances.

Wakas

peace,
You may be interested in these articles

https//www.free-minds.org/mumins

https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm

hawk99

Peace,

Wow, what a long post, so I'll just generalize maybe that can be helpful. I'll start by asking you a question. What do you want from Allah?

God bless you

peace

LiberalGamer

Peace Emre.
Thank you for your thoughts, yes I see the importance of this and while this is something that still rubs me the wrong way, I do agree with you to an extent.
However this isn't the main reason why I'm having these doubts, as I said the main reason isn't that there are things in The Qur'an that I don't understand, it's that there are things in The Qur'an that I understand more if I assume that The Qur'an isn't from God rather from a human, as much as I hate to say it.

But even still with this I Insha Allah hope to not give up on The Qur'an, it's just that, I don't know, it would be nice if there was something, a verse, a principle, a surah, which doesn't make sense if you assume it's from a human, but makes a ton of sense if you assume it's from God.
.

Peace be upon you Emre.

Peace Wakas.
Thank you for your posts, but truth be told they didn't help all that much.
No offense if you made any of these posts, but the first post... admittedly I didn't read much but it doesn't seem all to relevant, please correct me if I'm wrong tho.
But the second post, truth be told scientific miracles in the Qur'an has always felt icky to me, because of the constantly changing nature of science, so using it as proof is a bit ehh in my view, and the literally stuff is literally so subjective, I mean there are a lot of people who claim that a lot of books are wonderful in literature, that doesn't prove if it's Divine or not.
And the prophecies, alright yea this is probably the strongest of the three points, but even here some are a stretch from my view, such as the moon landing stuff.
but yea, the main reason this doesn't resonate with me is that I'm having semi-doubts on more of a principled level, and I said it before and I'll say it again
the conundrum that I'm having is the following, I guess
"if you assume that The Qur'an was written by a human, then almost everything in The Qur'an seems to be designed to benefit the author in one way or another. There doesn't seem to be any inconvenient truths in The Qur'an for the, if you believe so, human author, rather everything seems to align with what a human who would fabricate a text of this magnitude would desire."

But thank you for your post either way, Peace be upon you.

Peace hawk99.
Thank you for your post, your question is truthfully very meaningful.
Admittedly there are a lot of things I hope for, I guess, and admittedly I am staggering a bit in what I want for myself, but to answer your question, 'What would I want from Allah swt."', I would say, more or less

-To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves.

For most of the time The Qur'an served this purpose, and admittedly I came across a lot of conundrums, but now with this conundrum I'm doubting if following The Qur'an would be following what God Wants for us, I do believe He is Merciful , so I'm not saying that anyone who follows The Qur'an would get punished, rather I'm saying if God didn't send down The Qur'an, then I'd rather spend my time elsewhere trying to find what He wants for us, then to use that time interpenetrating The Qur'an, assuming it's falsehood...

I hope I got across what I was going to say...

Peace be upon you hawk, and thank you for your post

Emre_1974tr

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611564.0

Peace

hawk99

Peace hawk99.
Thank you for your post, your question is truthfully very meaningful.
Admittedly there are a lot of things I hope for, I guess, and admittedly I am staggering a bit in what I want for myself, but to answer your question, 'What would I want from Allah swt."', I would say, more or less

-To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves.

For most of the time The Qur'an served this purpose, and admittedly I came across a lot of conundrums, but now with this conundrum I'm doubting if following The Qur'an would be following what God Wants for us, I do believe He is Merciful , so I'm not saying that anyone who follows The Qur'an would get punished, rather I'm saying if God didn't send down The Qur'an, then I'd rather spend my time elsewhere trying to find what He wants for us, then to use that time interpenetrating The Qur'an, assuming it's falsehood...

I hope I got across what I was going to say...

Peace be upon you hawk, and thank you for your post

Peace LiberalGamer, now that your have answered the question "What do I want from Allah" and you replied "To know how to do Right by Him, how to live a life that He Approves." The next step is to find via Quran how to accomplish your goals.

Here's one example
2177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.

God bless you

peace

jkhan

Peace jkhan, thank you for your reply.

I suppose you're right on the first point, truth be told I would say among all of the other ones, the main reason I do believe in the existence of God is due to His Guidance, I suppose I just have this natural inclination to believe in God, the atheists might say it's because of the fear of the unknown or whatever like that and tbh I don't think that's it, I can't pinpoint exactly why, but I will admit that I don't believe in God on purely 100% rational reasoning alone.

1....anyway... I am a bit confused on your second point, more specifically "Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn’t possibly from the God that you believe 100%. ", don't really know what you mean, but if you mean what I think you mean then yea, I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is not from God, but unfortunately I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is from God either.

"then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist", yea, I guess I did, but tbh I think I did always have this sorta inclination, maybe.
Like the inclination that even if The Qur'an ends up being a complete hoax, that that won't fully destroy my faith in God, because I believe that the concept of The Creator, that God surprasses my understanding of The Qur'an.

2....."To grasp this one cannot have blind faith… like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn’t make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
Well, I don't know, honestly, but I have to ask what's wrong with blind faith? isn't all faith blind? I dunno dude, like I think I understand you, but I don't know if I agree.
Because like listen, here's my view
Either Islam / The Qur'an is a Universal Religion or a Local Religion.

A Local Religion would mean that it's like every other religion, you have this book, you accept this book, you accept the beliefs, you're good, and that's that, and if you don't accept the book well you can get another religion, and tbh I'm a bit against this, beacuse it seems like every religion is like this, especially including sunni islam, you either accept the doctrines or you leave, it seems based on faith alone.

3.....But A Universal Religion would be something that has principles which are universally applied, mythology that can be reasoned towards, and to me The Qur'an Alone view seemed to really lean in this direction, with verses like 262 ... and stuff like that.
And honestly it still does seem to lean in that direction which is why I believe it to be closer to the truth then the other religions, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because if you believe that it is a universal religion, as I do, then you believe that you can reason for it's idea of God even without having it directly, because it is the truth, and if you believe that, then we're just back where we started, because we've concluded outside of any religious text that God exists, but that doesn't prove the validity of one text above another, I guess, idk honestly.
"the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran… "
I would and I will still try, God Willingly, but it seems like the answer to my conundrum is just "if you don't believe The Prophet is A Prophet, then you're in for a painful punishment"