Plastic surgery ... allowed or prohibiteD ?
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You don't get it do you? Of course not! because we were created PERFECT? but say exposure to earthly environments degrades this perfection yeah? then I say to you that is SHODDY WORKMANSHIP!
Once again.....did I talk about rain or sunlight causing birth defects? flag
This is what you written previously
Having said that, congenital abnormalities and birth defects are our fault and not The God's. It depends on if the mother used some drug while she was pregnant, or exposed to radiation or environmental pollutants or carcinogens or viral infections etc. All those things are OUR FAULT that we subjected our children to some kind of environmental insult, damaging the child ourselves. The God has perfected the creation and is not responsible for our faults.
So my question to you was if exposure to the enviroment or viral infections leads to birth defects (and viral infections is something we can't do nothing about apart from to live in a vacuum chamber!), then we have been designed badly, yeah? This must be a sign of shoddy workmanship, yeah? -)
Regards,
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So my question to you was if exposure to the enviroment or viral infections leads to birth defects (and viral infections is something we can't do nothing about apart from to live in a vacuum chamber!), then we have been designed badly, yeah? This must be a sign of shoddy workmanship, yeah?
If people adopt commonsense methods of hygiene and appropriate precautions they can avoid almost all viral infections very easily. Also if we eat healthy food and adopt healthy life style our immune system can resist and successfully overcome almost any viral infection. It is usually our fault when we get an infection that overwhelms us.
The creation has been perfected but can still be damaged due to fire or radiation or serious viral infections due to its own fault. It is just like putting your hand in fire. How is that shoddy workmanship?
If something is designed perfectly but your ignorance how to maintain it properly causes damage to it is that shoddy workmanship or your fault?
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Hello Lote,
Yes, I did try it out but realised that gym is not for me -)
Do you do gym? Are gyms popular in Saudi Arabia?I suppose you live in a place with a nice weather where you can take a walk or a jog in a park and breathe fresh air (Wow D ). Luckily to you the gym is not the only place to workout. Unlike here x
Here, we have no alternative but to workout indoors. So the gym is the only place. There are gyms for women ONLY of course, but now almost every family here have their home gym, as men are not very keen on letting their women and daughters go out to gyms, although even at the gyms, women would still be well tucked!I have never been to a gym abroad SA, nor will I ever be I suppose, but I have seen few in some movies only. I don't think that they are comfortable environment for beginners. They seem like they are good only for competitive levels. Those advanced would just scare you away, won?t they? Don?t go near them, I say! Find a place where you would feel mostly comfortable and make a short-term plan and stick to it! yessir
I was watching the movie "Frida" the other day. She married Diego Rivera who happened to lack all the features you mentioned above. Her parents thought the couple was like an elephant marrying a dove!!!
Oh the revolutionary artist Frida? she had a deformity in the right leg due to polio. And Diego is indeed a large man !! But their marriage was about love was it not? and you know what they say about love?
Love is blind! -)That is my point
So would you again say that women want looks?Regards,
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Hello TAJ,
Yes, I did try it out but realised that gym is not for me
Do you do gym? Are gyms popular in Saudi Arabia?I suppose you live in a place with a nice weather where you can take a walk or a jog in a park and breathe fresh air (Wow ). Luckily to you the gym is not the only place to workout. Unlike here
I would not say always "nice" weather but "unpridictable" weather, neither blisteringly hot nor chillingly cold but we can have these too sometimes!
As a youngster I was raised in the great outdoors with green open fields and rivers flowing through the villages. Here is a poem that sums up my experience of the countryside
"Daffodils"
I WANDERED lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host, of golden daffodils;
Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze.Continuous as the stars that shine
And twinkle on the milky way,
They stretched in never-ending line
Along the margin of a bay
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dance.The waves beside them danced; but they
Out-did the sparkling waves in glee
A poet could not but be gay,
In such a jocund company
I gazed--and gazed--but little thought
What wealth the show to me had broughtFor oft, when on my couch I lie
In vacant or in pensive mood,
They flash upon that inward eye
Which is the bliss of solitude;
And then my heart with pleasure fills,
And dances with the daffodils.-by William Wordsworth
Here, we have no alternative but to workout indoors.
Yes, I suspected that. Can't see anyone joggin in the Arabian heat!
So the gym is the only place. There are gyms for women ONLY of course, but now almost every family here have their home gym, as men are not very keen on letting their women and daughters go out to gyms, although even at the gyms, women would still be well tucked!
Wow, every family has their own gym! People here have no choice but to pay Extortionate amounts yearly to join gyms! As for women exercising while well tucked in - that must be dangerous.
I have never been to a gym abroad SA, nor will I ever be I suppose, but I have seen few in some movies only. I don't think that they are comfortable environment for beginners. They seem like they are good only for competitive levels. Those advanced would just scare you away, won?t they? Don?t go near them, I say! Find a place where you would feel mostly comfortable and make a short-term plan and stick to it!
Modern gyms here indeed have become crowded affair. It is always busy and full of people and can be very off putting for a beginner! and if you are shapless blob like me it can be bit awkard and little scary walking on to the treadmill ! -) For me a game of badminton is a good work out and a good swim in the swiming-pool!
Oh the revolutionary artist Frida? she had a deformity in the right leg due to polio. And Diego is indeed a large man !! But their marriage was about love was it not? and you know what they say about love?
Love is blind!That is my point
So don't say women want looks! And Frida is one case of millions!But TAJ love is the hardest thing in the world!
Love is like a stake through your heart
And though you bleed from this wound, you don't die!
And though you wish for death, the death does not come.
Just kidding -)But I understand what you mean! -)
Regards,
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Hello Lote,
The poem is really beautiful; but of course roll
Wow, every family has their own gym! People here have no choice but to pay Extortionate amounts yearly to join gyms! As for women exercising while well tucked in - that must be dangerous.
The home gyms are not to be compared with the ordinary gyms. Basically, they contain a treadmill, a recumbent and a rowing machine and some iron, and they would usually sit there to collect dust. Most people here are not so committed to working out.
I don't know what you understood from my statement "women would still be well tucked!" I didn't say "tucked in"!
I meant that they would still be covered, not much flesh showing even though the gym is only for women. Here, to freely show some flesh is equal to disrespect. Women don't like that. I would say it is because they are very very shy. It is the way we are brought up.For me a game of badminton is a good work out and a good swim in the swimming-pool!
Everyone is light inside water
But TAJ love is the hardest thing in the world!
Love is like a stake through your heart
And though you bleed from this wound, you don't die!
And though you wish for death, the death does not come.
Just kiddingKidding!?
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Hello TAJ,
Hello Lote,
The poem is really beautiful; but of course rollIf you ever decide to travel to places, do come and see the daffodils here -)
I meant that they would still be covered, not much flesh showing even though the gym is only for women. Here, to freely show some flesh is equal to disrespect. Women don't like that. I would say it is because they are very very shy. It is the way we are brought up.
I see. As a youngster we ran half naked in the open fields.
You not shy too are you? you don't write in a shy manner though -)For me a game of badminton is a good work out and a good swim in the swimming-pool!
Everyone is light inside water )
Yes and feels good too -)
But TAJ love is the hardest thing in the world!
Love is like a stake through your heart
And though you bleed from this wound, you don't die!
And though you wish for death, the death does not come.
Just kidding )Kidding!?
-) -) -)
As for plastic surgery, I am thinking of having my eye lasered to correct my short-sightedness. Just a very slight correction to God's perfection
-)Regards,
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Hello Lote,
As for plastic surgery, I am thinking of having my eye lasered to correct my short-sightedness. Just a very slight correction to God's perfection
Surgeries to fix something inside our bodies, whether minor or major, are not considered plastic surgeries.
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Peace all.
Iblees despised Adam (humans) from day one. He considered him (them) of a lower/lesser substance (clay). So he took it upon himself to prove to God that humans too feel the same way about themselves and so started convicing humans to change themsleves whenever and however possible.
Taj, thank you for this reminder. I very much needed it today. D
Oh joy! LT, I love Wordsworth, too! I started to put up a "daisy" to go with your "daffodils" but I think the one below suits my mood today. wink And maybe fits with the folly of constantly seeking the good opinions of others, especially when it comes to looks.
Yes, It was the Mountain Echo,
Solitary, clear, profound,
Answering to the shouting Cuckoo,
Giving to her sound for sound!Unsolicited reply
To a babbling wanderer sent;
Like her ordinary cry,
Like--but oh, how different!Hears not also mortal Life?
Hear not we, unthinking Creatures!
Slaves of folly, love, or strife--
Voices of two different natures?Have not 'we' too?--yes, we have
Answers, and we know not whence;
Echoes from beyond the grave,
Recognised intelligence!Such rebounds our inward ear
Catches sometimes from afar--
Listen, ponder, hold them dear;
For of God,--of God they are. -
Peace Sytalls,
Peace all.
Iblees despised Adam (humans) from day one. He considered him (them) of a lower/lesser substance (clay). So he took it upon himself to prove to God that humans too feel the same way about themselves and so started convicing humans to change themsleves whenever and however possible.
Taj, thank you for this reminder. I very much needed it today.
I am glad that you found what I wrote useful, even if just for one day
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Salaamun alaikum Taj,
I don't know what you understood from my statement "women would still be well tucked!" I didn't say "tucked in"!
Is that why the lady in your avatar is well tucked? .....o0(is that Taj in the avatar?) ?
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Peace Taj.
Oh noooo...it's useful every day. Just needed an extra reminder yesterday. And it was one of those things where your post jumped right out at me, even though I really hadn't been following this particular thread and my mindset had nothing to do with physical appearance.
Since I'm following Brother Ayman's evaluation for Ramadan, I've noticed with fasting that I cycle through thoughts and emotions that seem to be waiting for a chance to reveal themselves and be dealt with. But this has nothing to do with nose jobs or tummy tucks, so I'd better take this over to the proper category.
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Oh joy! LT, I love Wordsworth, too! I started to put up a "daisy" to go with your "daffodils" but I think the one below suits my mood today. wink And maybe fits with the folly of constantly seeking the good opinions of others, especially when it comes to looks.
I love the "daisy" poem too!!! -)
Such rebounds our inward ear
Catches sometimes from afar--
Listen, ponder, hold them dear;
For of God,--of God they are.A true poet-mystic!!! -)
Regards,
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This thread is very pertinent to me as was just discussig the issue of tattoos with a friend today. After reading the same verse as quoted (an nisa 119) we both came to the conclusion that tattoos would not be permitted. i've been thinking about it since then though and to be honest i'm not entirely certain exactly what is meant by "the creation". In no way does it explicitly refer to humans, in fact the sentence prior was refering to the cutting of cattle's ears and so it could be possible that the reference to creation was a continuance of that thought.
if by creation it just means all of god's creation then we would be severely limited in all that we do. Cutting down a tree to build a house would be an example of altering god's creation. As would damming a river or furnishing a cave. Does anybody have any other quran references on this subject that cold help clarify? Currently I am of the position that creation refers to us, people. To be honest though I am aware that I have been influenced by people presenting this verse as evidence against cosmetic surgery/tattooing, I am not 100% certain that if i had just read it with nobody putting ideas into my head i would necessarily concluded "ok this verse shows that altering your appearance is unacceptable"
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Peace ron mexico,
4119 "And I will misguide them and make them desire, and I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make change to God's creation." Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss.
4120 He promises them and makes them desire, but what the devil promises them is only vanity.I think the key words in these ayaat are "make them desire". The context is the devil misguiding us and making us desire i.e. anything to do with ego. Hence it follows that if we make a change in God's creation because of our EGO/DESIRES then it is taking the devil as a supporter and is indeed a great loss. Examples would be plastic surgery only for cosmetic reasons, just to look good/beautiful, or tattoos etc. However if a change in God's creation is made for a just reason for a just cause, e.g. medical reasons to eliminate a disease or illness, or cutting trees to build houses, or constructing dams etc. then IMO that is ok because it is not coming from our egoistic desires but due to just cause or definite needs. Hope that helps.
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Peace Khadija,
Whoever gets braces on teeth knows deep down inside his/her heart if he/she is getting them for egoistic purposes or for justifiable medical/dental reasons.
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Peace ron mexico,
4119 "And I will misguide them and make them desire, and I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make change to God's creation." Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss.
4120 He promises them and makes them desire, but what the devil promises them is only vanity.I think the key words in these ayaat are "make them desire". The context is the devil misguiding us and making us desire i.e. anything to do with ego. Hence it follows that if we make a change in God's creation because of our EGO/DESIRES then it is taking the devil as a supporter and is indeed a great loss. Examples would be plastic surgery only for cosmetic reasons, just to look good/beautiful, or tattoos etc. However if a change in God's creation is made for a just reason for a just cause, e.g. medical reasons to eliminate a disease or illness, or cutting trees to build houses, or constructing dams etc. then IMO that is ok because it is not coming from our egoistic desires but due to just cause or definite needs. Hope that helps.
Salam ron Mexico, Tanveer, Taj, all,
I have been following this pertinent debate but I couldn't see anything that would raise the issue of self-esteem. I think the verses posted by Brother Tanveer are strait forward. Devil's suggestions come in all forms and what is obvious for me in these verses is when the self-esteem plunges, the devil comes to the rescue and succeeds in having you as an ally. Other verses clearly describe how the devil assumes his role of supporter. The word used is "zayana" (from adornment) , he will make you believe what you do is legitimate and okay. So nowaday, we even see parents offering to their children for graduation, breast implant surgery gift or a nose lift surgery because it is "okay" to "feel good/beautiful" while the problem is much deeper because it is in the head. Satan makes us obsessed by how others perceive us and this is precisely how he keeps us away from the rememberance of the All-Mighty because our brain is busy processing only oumour al-dunya (earthly desires/affairs) to a point where God is shifted completly in the bottom in terms of priorities. It is very important to understand the influence of Satan on us and how it is manifested instead of trying to build up an entire philosophy on the verse above that is clear and strait forward. So my Brothers and Sisters, be aware that your happiness is not in whether you look like casimodo or brat pitt-) but it is in whether your self-esteem is built on foundations rooted in God the All-Mighty system or the human illusive system.
And God the All-Mighty knows best.
Peace and God blessings. Myr.
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So my Brothers and Sisters, be aware that your happiness is not in whether you look like casimodo or brat pitt -) but it is in whether your self-esteem is built on foundations rooted in God the All-Mighty system or
the human illusive system.But I say it is! Quasimodo could never have Esmeralda even though he loved her with his life and soul! Only thing Esmeralda give could him is Pity and compassion! And who wants Pity anyway?
When you are not happy with yourself, you are not happy with anything
-) believe me it is true!
A simple bent nose can have a devasting effect on one's self esteem!And this is always a ugly person's saying Looks don't matter!
because that is the only way to deal with the "ugly" reality.
-)And God the All-Mighty knows best.
I am afraid He did not in my case!
Unless you can find beauty in the Elephant Man?
-)Regards,
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Salaam Myr,
For me, all what you wrote above does not reflect the minimum of what should be the behavior, attitude, and thinking of someone who fears Allah, believes in Quran, and is interested in its wisdom.
Please do not be dissuaded by LoteTree's remarks. Just for your information and for all those who are not aware... Lote Tree does NOT believe that quran is the word of God.
I also assumed some time ago that he was a believer in quran, but was quickly corrected.
I hope this clears out any misunderstanding.
Peace
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Salam LotTree, all,
Seriously, I don't think you want to discuss the issue in the light of Quran and I really thought this forum is for a better understanding of issues in the light of Quran and what that means. For me, all what you wrote above does not reflect the minimum of what should be the behavior, attitude, and thinking of someone who fears Allah, believes in Quran, and is interested in its wisdom. Indeed, life has been made an adorment to you that you become a slave of it and its people and this is nothing else than the work of the cursed satan.
The subject is closed for me.
Peace and God blessings on you all. Myr.
Hello Myr,
Oh I am sorry you did not understand that I wrote in jest. If you had read my previous posts you would have understood that my posts are meant for humour on this thread!
Laughter is the sunshine that drives winter from human face sun
Just for your information Myr, I do not approach God, Religion and Scripture out of Fear. I have outgrown my childhood fear of Hell, Myr, because there is more to God than fearing Hell.
I approach God for understanding -)
If I upset you then my apologies...
Regards,