Was Jesus Created...?

Jafar

Salaam

ApplePie, you and all christians who regards Jesus (as) as God or one of Gods should put more deep thinking on your position. (Before it is too late).

On their "Daven" / "Shalat" in the synagogue the jews proclaims these words. (Commonly known as "SHEMA")
YHVH ELOHEYNU YHVH ECHAD
YHVH Our God YHVH ONE (Deu 64)
They substitue the word YHVH with ADONAI

By reading in your bible, it is said that Jesus (as) do "Daven" in the "Kenisah/Synagogue". (Ref Luk 416, Mat 423, 935, Mar 62) and he sometimes / usually earn an honorable privilege to be an "Aliyah" (The one leading a prayer and/or reciting verses from the Tanakh).

Then answer this

While Jesus (as) doing the "Daven" in "Kenisah/Synagogue", where the SHEMA are always proclaimed as part of the "Jewish Liturgy". What do you think Jesus (as) said when the SHEMA are being proclaimed altogether?

Is it

a. YHVH Eloheynu YHVH Echad - YHVH Our God YHVH One
(The correct shema, Deu 64)
or
b. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad - I am your God I am One
c. Ani Eloheychem Ani Shelosha Hayah Echad
I am your God I am Three become One
c. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad Mishelosha
I am your God I am one of the Three
d. Keep silent

Read Mark 1229 and READ WITH YOUR OWN EYES HOW JESUS (AS) PROCLAIM HIS SHEMA.

Here's some links on how "the jews" do their "worshipping" in the time of Jesus (as).
http//community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=1633
http//community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=1637
http//community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=3399

And here's some verses in your own bible about the 'impossibility' of God becoming a man or a man becoming a God.

Isaiah 428
ANI YHVH HVU SHEMY VKHEVODIRY LEACHER LO-ETEN VTEHILATY LAPSILIM
I am YHVH, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.

Hosea 119
KI EL ANOKHI VE LO-ISH
Because I am GOD and not a man

To moslems, feel free to use the above argument as a means of your "dakwah" to our christian brothers and sisters.

neo

Greetings All,

Thanks for your replies?

Let?s concentrate on the most popular Koranic ?proof-text? used in the ?creation? controversy of Jesus?

3.59?

Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu

Our position is thus?

Jesus was not created.

Furthermore?Jesus is co-equal with God.

3.59 amply demonstrates these points?

Let?s look?

The authors?, who penned the Muslim book of faith, first used the following Arabic term when comparing Jesus to ?allah??

= ?Mathalu?

?Mathalu? definition

Noun. Parable, likeness, similitude, like, reason, proverb, discourse, equivalent, comparison, sign, lesson, an example, case, state, condition, argument, match, an analogue. It comes from the root ?mathala?, which means to resemble, imitate, compare any one with, be or look like some one, bear a likeness.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 3017 - 3018
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 525 - 526

Already?we can clearly see the comparison of Jesus to ?allah? is one of

? Similitude
? Equivalent
? Analogue
? Resemble
? Bear a likeness

Now?look at the next Arabic term used when comparing Jesus to ?allah??

= ?inda?

?inda? definition

A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place. The vicinage, or the quarter, tract, region, or place, of a person or thing. Used in the manner pf a preposition, though properly a prefixed noun signifying a place (or anything local); of time when prefixed to a noun signifying a time denoting presence, i.e. perceptible presence, and also ideal presence, or rather the place of presence; and nearness, or the place of nearness; or the utmost nearness, and therefore it has no dim.; i.e. it is primarily used in relation to that which is present with a person (or thing), in any adjacent part or quarter with respect to that person (or thing); or in relation to that which is near to a person (or thing); thus is signifies at, near, nigh, by, near by, or close by, a place, or thing; with, present with, or in the presence of, a person or persons, or a thing or things; at the abode of a person; at the place of , or in the region of, a thing; or among , or amongst, persons or things and at, near, nigh, or about, a time; and at, or on, or upon, denoting the occasion of an event or an action; here; with; by; at the point of; about; from; in the presence of. The word denotes the idea of nearness, it also denotes a sense of rank or dignity or opinion, time and place.

is generally best rendered in the estimation, or sight of Allah. Sometimes it denotes comparison. Not alone.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2170 - 2172
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 391

Amazingly?not only does the classic Arabic tell us that Jesus is the equivalent or similitude ?Mathalu? of ?allah??but we are also told that Jesus is present with ?allah??as ?allah? is not alone?!

The blatant fact that ?allah? is not alone is confirmed elsewhere in your book of faith, as demonstrated in this grouping?

Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

81.19 That he truly is a Holy messenger's Word.

Occurrences of ?laqawlun? in the Koran 3
Locations 69.40, 81.19, 86.13

We already know that sura 86 is discussing Jesus?.and that Jesus is the WORD spoken of in 86.13?

Then?

Thee quwwatin AAinda thee alAAarshi makeenin

81.20 Of power at of the throne highly positioned/distinguished.

Here we are informed that ?the Holy messengers Word? i.e. Jesus, is ?inda??or present at the throne.

Furthermore?we are told that Jesus is ?quwwatin? at the throne?.i.e. singular; meaning ?and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread?

Interestingly?.the authors? of the Koran make the special point of illustrating that two things are ?twisted? together to make one?!

Then?

MutaAAin thamma ameenin

81.21 Obeyed there at the same time or place, faithful/loyal.

Absolutely amazing?..the ?two? that are actually ?one? are now to be ?mutaAAin??i.e. ?Obeyed one; who is entitled to be obeyed?

Thus?.it is crystal clear that Jesus is God Almighty.

Straight from the Muslim book of faith, as penned by its? authors?

Comments thus far?.?

Lol.

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be". And he was."

If you can take that to mean "Jesus is like Allah and Allah is not alone" xfiles music then a forum can't help you; I'd suggest some serious secondary school English education.

"The simplitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam" means "In Allah's 'eyes' Jesus is like Adam". Wow. That was what, one sentence?

As for your argument with 'similtitude' - Jesus was being compared to Adam, not Allah ("is as that of Adam").

As for 'in the presence of' - it means 'to Allah', not "OMG HE WAS WITH ALLAH THAT MEANS ALLAH ISNT ONE LOLZ ".

Your argument, is thus, broken.

unknownuser

Let?s define our terms first?

, , .

Shama? Yisra?el Yahweh Elohim Yahweh Echad

Deu 64 Hear,8085 O Israel3478 Yahweh3068 our God430 Yahweh3068 (is)one259

= ?Yahweh?

?Yahweh? definition

H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex 6.2-3). It comes from the root ?hawa? H1961, which means either existence, or development; ?to be?. ?The existing one?.

H1961 ?hawa? A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

H1933 ?havah? A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence) - be, X have.

References
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 ? 212
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426

, , .

= ?Elohim?

?Elohim? definition

H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a ?Plural of Majesty?. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form ?Elohim? occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic. Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H433 ?eloah? Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity - God, god. See H430.

References
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #93c, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 41 - 45
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 54
The New Strong?s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 17

, , .

= ?echad?

?echad? definition

H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with ?yahad?, to be united and with ?ro?sh?, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. A numerical adjective meaning one, first, once, the same. A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together. One (number), each, every, a certain, an (indefinite article), only, once, once for all, one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one, first, eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal).

H258 ?achad? Verb. Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one?s thoughts) - go one way or other; be sharp, keen.

References
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #61, #605, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, p. 30, 263
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 33
The New Strong?s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 10

Here is the message that the Classic Hebrew is conveying to us

? Tetragrammaton = singular
? Elohim = Plural
? Echad = one unity
? The juxtaposed words?Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
? God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
? Singular, Plural, Singular
? These three elements form one unity
? Singular = Plural
? Plural = Singular
? God = Gods
? God is clearly singular
? God is clearly plural
? God is Uniplural

Hence, it is little wonder why Jesus quoted and proclaimed this as most important?

29
30

Mar 1229 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord,

Mar 1230 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. Deut. 64, 5

It is interesting that Muslims do not even comprehend their own scriptures let alone the scriptures of the Jews and Christians?

You would do well to research your ?arguments? before hand?

Take care?

neo

/\ You would do well to read & comprehend.

'Assuming' you 're correct (el oh el), the statement "jesus is like allah, allah created adam from clay" has no linguistic consistency (note this is independent of language ) or value. This is like saying "I like coke, my eyes are blue". Two parts of a sentence that do not combine to convey any information whatsoever => linguistic inconsistency. Meaning, your inane interpretation is nothing more than a tripe attempt which results in nothing but an inherent inconsistency on your part.

However, that's assuming you're correct in the first place.

unknownuser

/\ You would do well to read & comprehend.

'Assuming' you 're correct (el oh el), the statement "jesus is like allah, allah created adam from clay" has no linguistic consistency (note this is independent of language o) or value. This is like saying "I like coke, my eyes are blue". Two parts of a sentence that do not combine to convey any information whatsoever => linguistic inconsistency. Meaning, your inane interpretation is nothing more than a tripe attempt which results in nothing but an inherent inconsistency on your part.

However, that's assuming you're correct in the first place.

Perhaps...in your future replies, instead of venting and giving your opinion on the matter, you could actually specifically refute our exegesis...

Till then... wink

neo

That wasn't an opinion. Read it again. The refute comes in the form of linguistic inconsistency, as outlined. That, and the fact that your interpretation is just flat out wrong.

By the way, which part of my post is "venting"? I merely said you lack secondary school education - that's not 'venting', that's an observation.

Jafar

ApplePie a simple answer please...
A / B / C / D or E
.

Then I'll tell u the meanings and differences of YACHID, ECHAD, YHVH and ELOHYM.

Then answer this

While Jesus (as) doing the "Daven" in "Kenisah/Synagogue", where the SHEMA are always proclaimed as part of the "Jewish Liturgy". What do you think Jesus (as) said when the SHEMA are being proclaimed altogether?

Is it

a. YHVH Eloheynu YHVH Echad - YHVH Our God YHVH One
(The correct shema, Deu 64)
or
b. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad - I am your God I am One
c. Ani Eloheychem Ani Shelosha Hayah Echad - I am your God I am Three become One
d. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad Mishelosha - I am your God I am one of the Three
e. Keep silent

unknownuser

albion wrote

Dhulqarnain..

Ahh, alas, a name near and dear to my heart. lol

unknownuser

That wasn't an opinion. Read it again. The refute comes in the form of linguistic inconsistency, as outlined. That, and the fact that your interpretation is just flat out wrong.

What part of our exegesis are you "refuting"....?

Please demonstrate with verifiable references... wink

By the way, which part of my post is "venting"? I merely said you lack secondary school education - that's not 'venting', that's an observation.

Your posts are no more than personal, unreferenced venting...

Thanks...

unknownuser

ApplePie a simple answer please...
A / B / C / D or E
.

Then I'll tell u the meanings and differences of YACHID, ECHAD, YHVH and ELOHYM.

Then answer this

While Jesus (as) doing the "Daven" in "Kenisah/Synagogue", where the SHEMA are always proclaimed as part of the "Jewish Liturgy". What do you think Jesus (as) said when the SHEMA are being proclaimed altogether?

Is it

a. YHVH Eloheynu YHVH Echad - YHVH Our God YHVH One
(The correct shema, Deu 64)
or
b. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad - I am your God I am One
c. Ani Eloheychem Ani Shelosha Hayah Echad - I am your God I am Three become One
d. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad Mishelosha - I am your God I am one of the Three
e. Keep silent

We already replied to your Shema "argument"...
wink

The ball is in your court...

neo

Please demonstrate with verifiable references... wink

Thanks...

You want me to link you to a grammar book?

Jafar

We already replied to your Shema "argument"...

Ah 'avoidance', you know it is the "BIG A" isn't it?

005.072

They do blaspheme who say "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

004.171

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" desist it will be better for you for Allah is one Allah Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

The rest is up to you..
We Moslems love Jesus too... we love him dearly...
He is one of God's special agents. An 'expert' on handling the munafiqoons (the hypocrites).

004.159
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them

005.074
Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Shalom/Salam/Peace

unknownuser

We already replied to your Shema "argument"...

Ah 'avoidance', you know it is the "BIG A" isn't it?

005.072

They do blaspheme who say "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

004.171

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" desist it will be better for you for Allah is one Allah Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

The rest is up to you..
We Moslems love Jesus too... we love him dearly...
He is one of God's special agents. An 'expert' on handling the munafiqoons (the hypocrites).

004.159
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them

005.074
Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Shalom/Salam/Peace

So quick to move on to "greener pastures"...you are...

You brought up the Shema...now refute our rebuttal....after all, it was in queue first...and please don't pretend that you were unanswered - pleading ignorance is a very tiresome quality of Muslims...

Thanks...

Jafar

You brought up the Shema...now refute our rebuttal....

Who is the "our" here ?
Are u a 'triune-personalities' yourself?? (Father/Mother, Son/Daughter and Holy Spirit??) ('lol')

Why don't we just let the 'real rabbi' do the refuting works, read on these articles

The word 'echad, "one'
http//www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq062.html

Shema and the so-called "Triune".
http//www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq060.html

Shema and its 'deeper' meaning
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=147&o=137&pg=2

What Is G-d
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=76

What Is G-d Not
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=78

What Is Idol Worship
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=105

pleading ignorance is a very tiresome quality of Muslims...

Thank you, for it has been written
Mat 2312 "And whoever will exalt himself, will be humbled; and whoever will humble himself, will be exalted.

Mat 410 For it has been written, 'The Lord your God ( ) you will prostrate yourself in worship before, and Him only will you sacredly serve.'"

Jam 47 Submit yourselves therefore to God (Greek THEOS). Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

unknownuser