Was Jesus Created...?
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Let?s define our terms first?
, , .
Shama? Yisra?el Yahweh Elohim Yahweh Echad
Deu 64 Hear,8085 O Israel3478 Yahweh3068 our God430 Yahweh3068 (is)one259
= ?Yahweh?
?Yahweh? definition
H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex 6.2-3). It comes from the root ?hawa? H1961, which means either existence, or development; ?to be?. ?The existing one?.
H1961 ?hawa? A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
H1933 ?havah? A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence) - be, X have.
References
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 ? 212
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426, , .
= ?Elohim?
?Elohim? definition
H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a ?Plural of Majesty?. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form ?Elohim? occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic. Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
H433 ?eloah? Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity - God, god. See H430.
References
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #93c, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 41 - 45
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 54
The New Strong?s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 17, , .
= ?echad?
?echad? definition
H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with ?yahad?, to be united and with ?ro?sh?, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. A numerical adjective meaning one, first, once, the same. A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together. One (number), each, every, a certain, an (indefinite article), only, once, once for all, one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one, first, eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal).
H258 ?achad? Verb. Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one?s thoughts) - go one way or other; be sharp, keen.
References
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #61, #605, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, p. 30, 263
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 33
The New Strong?s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 10Here is the message that the Classic Hebrew is conveying to us
? Tetragrammaton = singular
? Elohim = Plural
? Echad = one unity
? The juxtaposed words?Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
? God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
? Singular, Plural, Singular
? These three elements form one unity
? Singular = Plural
? Plural = Singular
? God = Gods
? God is clearly singular
? God is clearly plural
? God is UnipluralHence, it is little wonder why Jesus quoted and proclaimed this as most important?
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30Mar 1229 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord,
Mar 1230 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. Deut. 64, 5
It is interesting that Muslims do not even comprehend their own scriptures let alone the scriptures of the Jews and Christians?
You would do well to research your ?arguments? before hand?
Take care?
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/\ You would do well to read & comprehend.
'Assuming' you 're correct (el oh el), the statement "jesus is like allah, allah created adam from clay" has no linguistic consistency (note this is independent of language ) or value. This is like saying "I like coke, my eyes are blue". Two parts of a sentence that do not combine to convey any information whatsoever => linguistic inconsistency. Meaning, your inane interpretation is nothing more than a tripe attempt which results in nothing but an inherent inconsistency on your part.
However, that's assuming you're correct in the first place.
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/\ You would do well to read & comprehend.
'Assuming' you 're correct (el oh el), the statement "jesus is like allah, allah created adam from clay" has no linguistic consistency (note this is independent of language o) or value. This is like saying "I like coke, my eyes are blue". Two parts of a sentence that do not combine to convey any information whatsoever => linguistic inconsistency. Meaning, your inane interpretation is nothing more than a tripe attempt which results in nothing but an inherent inconsistency on your part.
However, that's assuming you're correct in the first place.
Perhaps...in your future replies, instead of venting and giving your opinion on the matter, you could actually specifically refute our exegesis...
Till then... wink
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That wasn't an opinion. Read it again. The refute comes in the form of linguistic inconsistency, as outlined. That, and the fact that your interpretation is just flat out wrong.
By the way, which part of my post is "venting"? I merely said you lack secondary school education - that's not 'venting', that's an observation.
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ApplePie a simple answer please...
A / B / C / D or E
.Then I'll tell u the meanings and differences of YACHID, ECHAD, YHVH and ELOHYM.
Then answer this
While Jesus (as) doing the "Daven" in "Kenisah/Synagogue", where the SHEMA are always proclaimed as part of the "Jewish Liturgy". What do you think Jesus (as) said when the SHEMA are being proclaimed altogether?
Is it
a. YHVH Eloheynu YHVH Echad - YHVH Our God YHVH One
(The correct shema, Deu 64)
or
b. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad - I am your God I am One
c. Ani Eloheychem Ani Shelosha Hayah Echad - I am your God I am Three become One
d. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad Mishelosha - I am your God I am one of the Three
e. Keep silent -
albion wrote
Dhulqarnain..
Ahh, alas, a name near and dear to my heart. lol
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That wasn't an opinion. Read it again. The refute comes in the form of linguistic inconsistency, as outlined. That, and the fact that your interpretation is just flat out wrong.
What part of our exegesis are you "refuting"....?
Please demonstrate with verifiable references... wink
By the way, which part of my post is "venting"? I merely said you lack secondary school education - that's not 'venting', that's an observation.
Your posts are no more than personal, unreferenced venting...
Thanks...
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ApplePie a simple answer please...
A / B / C / D or E
.Then I'll tell u the meanings and differences of YACHID, ECHAD, YHVH and ELOHYM.
Then answer this
While Jesus (as) doing the "Daven" in "Kenisah/Synagogue", where the SHEMA are always proclaimed as part of the "Jewish Liturgy". What do you think Jesus (as) said when the SHEMA are being proclaimed altogether?
Is it
a. YHVH Eloheynu YHVH Echad - YHVH Our God YHVH One
(The correct shema, Deu 64)
or
b. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad - I am your God I am One
c. Ani Eloheychem Ani Shelosha Hayah Echad - I am your God I am Three become One
d. Ani Eloheychem Ani Echad Mishelosha - I am your God I am one of the Three
e. Keep silentWe already replied to your Shema "argument"...
winkThe ball is in your court...
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We already replied to your Shema "argument"...
Ah 'avoidance', you know it is the "BIG A" isn't it?
005.072
They do blaspheme who say "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
004.171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" desist it will be better for you for Allah is one Allah Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
The rest is up to you..
We Moslems love Jesus too... we love him dearly...
He is one of God's special agents. An 'expert' on handling the munafiqoons (the hypocrites).004.159
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them005.074
Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.Shalom/Salam/Peace
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We already replied to your Shema "argument"...
Ah 'avoidance', you know it is the "BIG A" isn't it?
005.072
They do blaspheme who say "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
004.171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" desist it will be better for you for Allah is one Allah Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
The rest is up to you..
We Moslems love Jesus too... we love him dearly...
He is one of God's special agents. An 'expert' on handling the munafiqoons (the hypocrites).004.159
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them005.074
Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.Shalom/Salam/Peace
So quick to move on to "greener pastures"...you are...
You brought up the Shema...now refute our rebuttal....after all, it was in queue first...and please don't pretend that you were unanswered - pleading ignorance is a very tiresome quality of Muslims...
Thanks...
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You brought up the Shema...now refute our rebuttal....
Who is the "our" here ?
Are u a 'triune-personalities' yourself?? (Father/Mother, Son/Daughter and Holy Spirit??) ('lol')Why don't we just let the 'real rabbi' do the refuting works, read on these articles
The word 'echad, "one'
http//www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq062.htmlShema and the so-called "Triune".
http//www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq060.htmlShema and its 'deeper' meaning
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=147&o=137&pg=2What Is G-d
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=76What Is G-d Not
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=78What Is Idol Worship
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=105pleading ignorance is a very tiresome quality of Muslims...
Thank you, for it has been written
Mat 2312 "And whoever will exalt himself, will be humbled; and whoever will humble himself, will be exalted.Mat 410 For it has been written, 'The Lord your God ( ) you will prostrate yourself in worship before, and Him only will you sacredly serve.'"
Jam 47 Submit yourselves therefore to God (Greek THEOS). Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
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You brought up the Shema...now refute our rebuttal....
Who is the "our" here ?
Are u a 'triune-personalities' yourself?? (Father/Mother, Son/Daughter and Holy Spirit??) ('lol')Why don't we just let the 'real rabbi' do the refuting works, read on these articles
The word 'echad, "one'
http//www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq062.htmlShema and the so-called "Triune".
http//www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq060.htmlShema and its 'deeper' meaning
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=147&o=137&pg=2What Is G-d
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=76What Is G-d Not
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=78What Is Idol Worship
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=105pleading ignorance is a very tiresome quality of Muslims...
Thank you, for it has been written
Mat 2312 "And whoever will exalt himself, will be humbled; and whoever will humble himself, will be exalted.Mat 410 For it has been written, 'The Lord your God ( ך you will prostrate yourself in worship before, and Him only will you sacredly serve.'"
Jam 47 Submit yourselves therefore to God (Greek THEOS). Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Unfortunately?.your five minute ?googled? weblinks show (surprise!) absolutely no references whatsoever?
We would expect that you could at least verify your ?web sources? before making an assertion of which you are totally unable to back up yourself.
This is asking a lot, as you cannot even rebut the fact that the Koran proclaims that Jesus was not created?
Take care?
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Unfortunately?.your five minute ?googled? weblinks show (surprise!) absolutely no references whatsoever?
Oh really?? You should read more thoroughly... and 'show' some 'humility' (put away the arrogance)..
This is asking a lot
I'm not asking u for anything... its 100% your choice and your own life..
as you cannot even rebut the fact that the Koran proclaims that Jesus was not created?
Jesus was not a creation and that's a "fact" ??? lol
OF COURSE JESUS WAS CREATED AND SO DOES MUHAMMAD, MOSES, HOLY SPIRIT, THE QURAN, TIME, KNOWLEDGE AND A WHOLE BUNCH MORE.
Xtians (and so does other sects / religions / belief) 'idolatry' happens due to their misconception of "God".
Quote from AskMoses's Idol Worshipping (U Should read this thoroughly)
It says you can turn an abstract (G-d) into a concrete which of course, is impossible. Idol worship doesn?t just mean singing and dancing and bowing in front of funny-looking little statues?it means believing in any force, object or item outside of the infinite G-d Himself an angel, a constellation, a force of nature, A LIVING CREATURE?or a funny-looking little statue. EVERYTHING IS CREATED BY G-D, and to designate any piece of physical matter as ?G-d? or a ?Higher Power? is idol worship
The concept of a Trinity, i.e. the idea that there is anything but a One and indivisible G-d, is considered totally alien to Jewish thought, and is certainly a contradiction to true monotheism
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=105
And read all the rest of the articles, which I've given you the links, but that is all up to you... it is your life.. and its 100% your choice...
Everything in Heavens and the earth and everyhing in the between belongs to God / Allah / YHVH / Our Father In Heavens and ALL are His creations. He is Rabbial Alamien / Melekh Ha Olam / The Cherisher, Maintainer, Master and Creator of All Universes.
And there's a whole bunch of verses explaining that in the Quran.. read it by yourself...
002.117
002.117 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it "Be," and it is.019.093
019.093 Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to Most Gracious as a servant. -
Greetings Jafar,
Thanks for your reply?
Quote
Unfortunately?.your five minute ?googled? weblinks show (surprise!) absolutely no references whatsoever?Oh really?? You should read more thoroughly... and 'show' some 'humility' (put away the arrogance)..
We read it thoroughly?
Your reply to our Shema rebuttal was to immediately post web-links as your defense?not too impressive? roll
Furthermore, you still have not shown any references for the web-pasted author?s opinion.
Quote
as you cannot even rebut the fact that the Koran proclaims that Jesus was not created?
Jesus was not a creation and that's a "fact" ???
Yes?it is a fact?even the Koran confirms that Jesus was never created.
You can witness this for yourself from 3.59?
OF COURSE JESUS WAS CREATED AND SO DOES MUHAMMAD, MOSES, HOLY SPIRIT, THE QURAN, TIME, KNOWLEDGE AND A WHOLE BUNCH MORE.
We have shown you otherwise?and you cannot refute our position? wink
Xtians (and so does other sects / religions / belief) 'idolatry' happens due to their misconception of "God".
Muslims cannot even accurately interpret their very own ?scriptures??
They require assistance to untwist what centuries of ignorance has done.
Quote from AskMoses's Idol Worshipping (U Should read this thoroughly)
It says you can turn an abstract (G-d) into a concrete which of course, is impossible. Idol worship doesn?t just mean singing and dancing and bowing in front of funny-looking little statues?it means believing in any force, object or item outside of the infinite G-d Himself an angel, a constellation, a force of nature, A LIVING CREATURE?or a funny-looking little statue. EVERYTHING IS CREATED BY G-D, and to designate any piece of physical matter as ?G-d? or a ?Higher Power? is idol worship
The concept of a Trinity, i.e. the idea that there is anything but a One and indivisible G-d, is considered totally alien to Jewish thought, and is certainly a contradiction to true monotheism
http//www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=419&o=105
Key words?.?Jewish thought??
Interesting that you did not mention Jewish scriptures?.but instead their thoughts on the matter?.this is no different than what Islam thinks of their own scriptures ? the two are in diametric opposition to each other.
Furthermore?.it appears that you are unaware of what the Biblical concept of the Holy Trinity actually is?which has also been carried over into your book of faith by the authors of the Koran?
And read all the rest of the articles, which I've given you the links, but that is all up to you... it is your life.. and its 100% your choice...
Everything in Heavens and the earth and everyhing in the between belongs to God / Allah / YHVH / Our Father In Heavens and ALL are His creations. He is Rabbial Alamien / Melekh Ha Olam / The Cherisher, Maintainer, Master and Creator of All Universes.
Unless you take Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then we are not worshiping the same Creator God of the Universe?
Perhaps Islam has blinded you from seeing what is truly contained in your book of faith?
Thanks?
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Salaam,
You can witness this for yourself from 3.59?
You can also witness the opposite from 359. Just my opinion. )
Unless you take Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then we are not worshiping the same Creator God of the Universe?
I still think you make no sense. You sound like this guy on another forum who actually believes he is the incarnation of the anti-Christ.
Allah knows all things and Jesus must learn and Allah is his rabb/sustainer or lord .
Perhaps Islam has blinded you from seeing what is truly contained in your book of faith?
Sometimes when we stretch the meanings of things in the quran we will find that there are discrepencies which allows us to correct ourselves.
Joe
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Salaam,
You can witness this for yourself from 3.59?
You can also witness the opposite from 359. Just my opinion. .
That would mean that the Quran is not clear, which is just another discrepancy to add to the list.
Sometimes when we stretch the meanings of things in the quran we will find that there are discrepencies which allows us to correct ourselves.
The opposite is also true, where you stretch the meaning to overcome a discrepancy...
would you like to see an example ?
"And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity (farjahaa) and We breathed INTO HER Our spirit"
The Arabic word that is translated as "breathed in her " is Masculine, so its impossible to be translated as "Her". It can ONLY be translated as "it" or "Him".
But if either "it" or "Him" is used, it creates a discrepancy. Firstly how can a stranger "breath into IT (farj)" when her chastity is guarded. Or if it is translated as "Him", this means Jesus already existed before he was conceived.
A Question for you Joe. Have you ever seen this verse translated correctly, meaning translated in the Masculine, the way it appears in the Arabic language.
Actually this verse is a Good verse that proves Apple Pie's point, because when it's translated right it reads that the Angle "breathed into HIM" which is proof that Jesus already existed..
Here is the right translation
"And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity (farjahaa) and We breathed INTO HIM Our spirit"
It can't be "breathed into her" because the Arabic word used is Masculine NOT Feminine
It can't be "breathed into IT (farj) " because this would mean a discrepancy when her chastity is guarded
So it can ONLY be "breathed into HIM"
......
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Greetings Joe,
Thanks for adding your comments?
Apple Pie wrote
You can witness this for yourself from 3.59?You can also witness the opposite from 359. Just my opinion.
You are correct in stating that this would be your ?opinion??.as it is the one that you have been taught by Islam.
Unfortunately, Islam is not the Koran.
Not even close?
Secondly?it is doubtful that you would be willing to leave the comfort zone of your ?opinion? and actually directly rebut our exegesis.
Our exegesis is irrefutable. wink
Apple Pie wrote
Unless you take Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then we are not worshiping the same Creator God of the Universe?I still think you make no sense. You sound like this guy on another forum who actually believes he is the incarnation of the anti-Christ.
Allah knows all things and Jesus must learn and Allah is his rabb/sustainer or lord .
Apple Pie wrote
Perhaps Islam has blinded you from seeing what is truly contained in your book of faith?Sometimes when we stretch the meanings of things in the quran we will find that there are discrepencies which allows us to correct ourselves.
The interesting thing is that while Islam vehemently denies Jesus His rightful deity; Islam?s book of faith whole-heartedly proclaims His divinity?.!
Perhaps, one day, Muslims will actually critically examine their book of faith for themselves instead of giving lip-service to the man-made machine called Islam?
Thanks?