MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform
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Noah please repeat the question. I must have missed it and I don't want to roll up and start reading previous posts.
Thanks
peace
the question for lote tree is Lote tree...why are there only 2 options in your worldview?
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LoteTree
All the Saddam allegations which are more lies than truth you keep repeating them.Lies? So people of Falubja inhaled nerve gas accidently did they?
There is nothing wrong reading PRAVDA news.
You had no choice if you lived in the Soviet Union. But wake up chap Soviet Union is no more.
You want me to change the democracy? You must be 13 year old kid who think that he can change the system. You live in imaginary world and see the things from popular point of view.
A 13 year old? Blimey, hum that was a while ago...lets see. Remember that french teacher at school. Lovely blue eyes, long slender features, full lips...and very nice... erm..oops sorry. You brought back memories chap! -)
We can all do our bit to change the way democracy serves us as a society.
Me I analyze everything to come to an conclusion.
Reading PRAVDA and reaching conclusions is not doing much!
MQuran is a wise person and I am following him by quiting this endless senseless discussion.
Yes, you like following others don't you? The sheep baabaa-ing to its master. Be your own person. Be an individual.
And you have not offered anything for discussion only parrotted "democracy is bad, democracy is bad".
Regards,
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Kgb, forget it. Lote tree is not interrested in any fruitfull debate. Most of us have been lured into this clap trap, i hope my question being repeated 3 times and still unanswered is proof enough of that.
Lote tree cannot think outside the box. That is why the question pose such a threat to him. It has to be either or, it has to be them or us. it has to be black or white. it has to etc.. neuances just doesnt excists in his world.
Peace
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Hello Noah,
Lote tree, is there a reason that youre not answering my question?
Lote tree, if you dont want to speak to me i fully understand so, that would be my own fault. Just let me know so, Jazak Allah khein.
If thats not the problem. then please answer my question.
Gosh! I am in such demand! -)
the question for lote tree is Lote tree...why are there only 2 options in your worldview?
2 options in my world view? Really?
I am a poet chap I am used to exploring all views.
That is what all poets do. It is in their nature to look at all views.But I asked you before - what you have in the place of democracy?
and you said without hesitation THEOCRACY!
Ayman and myself have shown you the absurdity of THEOCRACY and I have shown you the vileness of DICTATORSHIPS. So I have explored other world views!DEMOCRACY is government by the People for the People. And it is such a Noble Idea. DICTATORSHIPS FORCES us into becoming unwilling SUBJECTS, SERVANTS and SLAVES. DICTATORSHIPS undermines our very human dignity!
But democracy is not perfect and is indeed flawed but we can work to make it better...
You are young Noah, you are learning. Perhaps one day you will realise how important it is to live with dignity and not be forced to bow down to a DICTATOR and be forced to massage his EGO, only because he wants you to.
Lote tree cannot think outside the box.
I could say Noah you cannot think outside of the Scripture.
That is why the question pose such a threat to him.
Your question is no threat. I thought I answered your questions in the "ABSURDITY OF THEOCRACY?" thread. And Also I did not want to upset you again. You have been ill and all that. I don't want to go into a heated debate with you again.
Thanks.
Regards,
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LoteTree you are an excellent example of stupidity and a complete idiot. Yes it is better not to talk to people like you in future who do not have intelligence to understand a single word of all my previous posts.
I have read your nonesensical posts! They boil down to this Democracy is bad, democracy sucks! This is not an argument! But rant of the unintelligent. And then you say this
All the Saddam allegations which are more lies than truth you keep repeating them.
Are you serious!!!??? He gassed the people of falubja!!! Only persons of utter stupidity will say the words you have written above.
I am sick and tired of people like you who support VILE DICTATORS around the world, who rather lick the boots of Tyrants than stand up for themselves and reclaim their human dignity!
Regards,
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Salaam Lote-Tree,
You saidI am sick and tired of people like you who support VILE DICTATORS around the world, who rather lick the boots of Tyrants than stand up for themselves and reclaim their human dignity!
YES me too, I can't believe people who bow down for dictators.
We must work for freedom of speech so people dare to say something instead of being kneedogs to dictators like Saddam, Bush,Blair,Sharon etc.
When are people going to fear God more than they fear eachother!?
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Hello Noah,
Lote tree, is there a reason that youre not answering my question?
Lote tree, if you dont want to speak to me i fully understand so, that would be my own fault. Just let me know so, Jazak Allah khein.
If thats not the problem. then please answer my question.
Gosh! I am in such demand! -)
the question for lote tree is Lote tree...why are there only 2 options in your worldview?
2 options in my world view? Really?
I am a poet chap I am used to exploring all views.
That is what all poets do. It is in their nature to look at all views.But I asked you before - what you have in the place of democracy?
and you said without hesitation THEOCRACY!
Ayman and myself have shown you the absurdity of THEOCRACY and I have shown you the vileness of DICTATORSHIPS. So I have explored other world views!DEMOCRACY is government by the People for the People. And it is such a Noble Idea. DICTATORSHIPS FORCES us into becoming unwilling SUBJECTS, SERVANTS and SLAVES. DICTATORSHIPS undermines our very human dignity!
But democracy is not perfect and is indeed flawed but we can work to make it better...
You are young Noah, you are learning. Perhaps one day you will realise how important it is to live with dignity and not be forced to bow down to a DICTATOR and be forced to massage his EGO, only because he wants you to.
Lote tree cannot think outside the box.
I could say Noah you cannot think outside of the Scripture.
That is why the question pose such a threat to him.
Your question is no threat. I thought I answered your questions in the "ABSURDITY OF THEOCRACY?" thread. And Also I did not want to upset you again. You have been ill and all that. I don't want to go into a heated debate with you again.
Thanks.
Regards,
Peace
Only lote tree. you never asked me for my view on a theorcracy. The kind im talking about, had you bothered to ask before you went out on a tangent about dicators, is a lot closer to anarchism than dictatorship.
I know about dignity Lote tree, and im not prepared to crawl on my knees for any judge or legal referee put in charge of the court (a place you play tennis and basketball), using laws on me mostly payed for by special interrest groups. Im not bad off in life. far from it Lote Tree. In fact, i should be praising democracy, singing its hymn like you do. Only...i saw it from the top, and i want NO part of it what so ever.
Still, your views are your views, but even though you are my older brother, you have a sad tendency to force things down peoples throats that they dont mean at all. It pisses people off, and im starting to think that you love to do so. Its rude.
So, my older brother...grow up
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I know about dignity Lote tree, and im not prepared to crawl on my knees for any judge or legal referee put in charge of the court (a place you play tennis and basketball), using laws on me mostly payed for by special interrest groups.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. In a DICTATORSHIP you can't - can you not see this Noah?
Is this so hard to grasp?Don't be naieve Noah. Power at the hands of a single person in a DICTATORSHIP is a dangerous thing. Power is easily abused because Power is very corrupting. Power therefore needs to be moderated and kept in check. Power needs to be controlled. Democracy allows you to control this Power and moderate its use more effectively. But this moderation and control is not perfect and never can be perfect. We had 18 years of Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher to realise that! And Democracy itself can be perveted into a DICTATORSHIP! but for all its faults, democracy is the best of the worst types of government that serves humanity best when the Power is properly regulated and controlled.
Im not bad off in life. far from it Lote Tree. In fact, i should be praising democracy, singing its hymn like you do. Only...i saw it from the top, and i want NO part of it what so ever.
Not taking part is an adolesencet abdication of responsibility. As adolescent we want the world the way we want it to be. That is why we have this urge for someone to take charge of this world and set it to rights. That is why as adolescent we desire dictatorship. But in reality World is more complex than we can possibly conceive at the kinder garden. Sooner or later you have to wake up to this complexity....
Still, your views are your views, but even though you are my older brother, you have a sad tendency to force things down peoples throats that they dont mean at all. It pisses people off, and im starting to think that you love to do so. Its rude.
No, Noah, it pisses people off because they feel that their world view is challenged. Just like you can easily piss off a sunni muslim by showing how utter fraud are their books of hadiths.
So, my older brother...grow up )
I grew up long time ago Noah. At the age of 6, you were probably playing marbles in your Dad's back yard. At the age of six I was grappling with concept of "God"
Regards,
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Peace
Still, your views are your views, but even though you are my older brother, you have a sad tendency to force things down peoples throats that they dont mean at all. It pisses people off, and im starting to think that you love to do so. Its rude.
No, Noah, it pisses people off because they feel that their world view is challenged. Just like you can easily piss off a sunni muslim by showing how utter fraud are their books of hadiths.
No. you put words in people mouths and that pisses them off.
look here
Don't be naieve Noah. Power at the hands of a single person in a DICTATORSHIP is a dangerous thing......
where am i talking about dictators? i will tell you. i aint!
Your view on theocracy is heavily lacking neuances. thus
At the age of six I was grappling with concept of "God" ..
you shouldnt have stopped back then.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. In a DICTATORSHIP you can't - can you not see this Noah?
Is this so hard to grasp?you know what, on paper Communism look real good too. In theory Communism have many merits. Its just...it didnt work, because like democracy it is not made by the people, thats just what were told. I cannot force you to see things for what they, thats your own problem )
peace
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Lote tree
To someone who grew up in hell purgatory is an improvement. To someone who grew up in purgatory, its just not good enough!
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SaLaM mquran
You never got around on telling me how a leader will be chosen. Looollll From your post, you said that a Messenger / leader will have to have certain skills before you beleive that he/she can be a messenger/leader. So if a person came to you demonstrating all those skills, will you take him / her to be your leader/ messenger of God?
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Noah
Communism failed because the one party rule become corrupted as the sytem did not put strong enough check and controls on their leadership. Communism if implemented with honesty is better system than Capitalism which called "Democracy" in USA.
Peace. no its not. its equally rotten and flawed to begin with. They are not opposites, they are opposames. Its "elite" rule. Power, true influence and access to the lions part of the resources for a very few. I am aware that the writ that Marx copyed and put his name on (or was paid for, i dont know) contains many nice thoughts. but thats how these false ideologies are sold on to us. Both are 99% sweet cookie and 1% arsenik. Problem is that 1% arsenik is enough to kill all.
This is not "gospel truth" but take a look. http//reactor-core.org/none-dare.html
The only type of government i have seen that wasnt rotten to the core was actually the republic of Americas before it became the Brittish owned coorporation called (in capital letters) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. A branch division of UNITED STATES COMPANY ANNO 1862.
But even with a good foundation look what happened. -
No. you put words in people mouths and that pisses them off.
look here
Don't be naieve Noah. Power at the hands of a single person in a DICTATORSHIP is a dangerous thing......
where am i talking about dictators? i will tell you. i aint!
Really Noah? This whole thread has been about democracy and autocratic rule!
Having failed with your argument with THEOCRACY which is also DICTATORSHIP, you now throw in ANARCHISM!
So my words "Power at the hands of a single person is a dangerous thing..." is about AUTOCRATIC RULE and DEMOCRACY. This keeping in line with discussion of the thread.
Your view on theocracy is heavily lacking neuances. thus
Hey Ayman demolished your arguments on THEOCRACY. You didn't need my views at all!
At the age of six I was grappling with concept of "God" ..
you shouldnt have stopped back then.
I haven't that is why I can easily challenge your world view.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. In a DICTATORSHIP you can't - can you not see this Noah?
Is this so hard to grasp?you know what, on paper Communism look real good too. In theory Communism have many merits. Its just...it didnt work, because like democracy it is not made by the people, thats just what were told.
No communism even on paper appealed to Idealist. But they could not see that Cummunism was dictatorship.
I cannot force you to see things for what they, thats your own problem
That is what is DEMOCRACY is about.
(And I have no problem at all. I think you do -)
But I will let you solve your problem since I am not here to solve your problem but rather challenge your world view so that you can say something brilliant that will get everyone thinking again...but so far you have not said anything exciting! (yet)Regards,
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Really Noah? This whole thread has been about democracy and autocratic rule!
and this apply to me how?
Having failed with your argument with THEOCRACY which is also DICTATORSHIP, you now throw in ANARCHISM!
No you never bothered to ask before you went out on a key about dicators. youre theone linking it together like that, not me. Dont put words in my mouth.
So my words "Power at the hands of a single person is a dangerous thing..." is about AUTOCRATIC RULE and DEMOCRACY. This keeping in line with discussion of the thread.
Power in hands of a single man or a single group of men are equally dangerous. They are two distinct beasts, so the danger of them differs.
Hey Ayman demolished your arguments on THEOCRACY. You didn't need my views at all!
Wjere did ayman do so did you think? All i saw was Ayman giving his PERSONAL oppinion, and me mine. So you like his better? thats ok )
I haven't that is why I can easily challenge your world view.
Yo havnt heard my worldview lote tree. you have forced one down my throat several times, in all debates i have had with you. PLease do tell me. what IS my world view that you so easily challenge.
No communism even on paper appealed to Idealist. But they could not see that Cummunism was dictatorship.
That is simply not true. Do your homework lote tree. it turned into a dictatorship, and i will argue it was always the idea of it, but not on paper.. Much like elite rule are now the democractic version of same. Atleast a dictator is in your face with his power. you know your enemy in a dictatorship. rather than in a democracy where the dictators are shady, hidden businness CEO's and special interrest groups, making deals that affect everybody OUTSIDE the democracy. You are intelligent, im sure this concept is not too hard to grasp.
I cannot force you to see things for what they, thats your own problem )
That is what is DEMOCRACY is about.
(And I have no problem at all. I think you do -)
But I will let you solve your problem since I am not here to solve your problem but rather challenge your world view so that you can say something brilliant that will get everyone thinking again...but so far you have not said anything exciting! (yet)What is it about? the removal of resources from the many into the hands of the few, badly dressed up as mob rule. And please enlighten me, what world view is it that you belive to have challenged? If you are so sure of what my world view is Lote tree, put weight behind it for once, and tell me what my world view is!
Its not like you excactly are shining in this debat. Putting words into peoples mouth impress noone.
Regards
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Yo havnt heard my worldview lote tree.
I have its THEOCRACY. You said it yourself and Ayman and I have showed you the absurdity of THEOCRACY.
you have forced one down my throat several times, in all debates i have had with you.
I have done no such thing! I spoke strongly about DEMOCRACY and how it serves humanity best.
No communism even on paper appealed to Idealist. But they could not see that Cummunism was dictatorship.
That is simply not true. Do your homework lote tree. it turned into a dictatorship, and i will argue it was always the idea of it, but not on paper.
Communism is an Idealist dictatorship but they can't see it because of their idealism. That is why communism failed.
Much like elite rule are now the democractic version of same.
Elite? That is nonsense Noah! Mr. Shahid Malik a Bengali from Bangladesh has risen to hights of power in the Government of UK. He came from very humble beginings and now has become a an eloquent voice for the Asian Minorities in the British Political system. And there are many examples like him. In a dictatorship people like him will have no chance to put their talent into good use.
Atleast a dictator is in your face with his power.
I don't want a dictator in my face with his POWER! And any sane, intelligent person with an ounce of self-dignity will find this very demeaning!
you know your enemy in a dictatorship.
And the DICTATOR knows you are HIS enemy. He will kill you to maintain his POWER without batting an eye-lid. And he will continue go on killing people to maintian his grip on POWER. In a DEMOCRACY electorate is NOT the enemy nor is the Electorial Candidates the Enemy.
rather than in a democracy where the dictators are shady, hidden businness CEO's and special interrest groups, making deals that affect everybody OUTSIDE the democracy.
As I said before if you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change that. If you think special interest groups undermining democracy then work to change that! So Noah, work hard to change it!
What is it about? the removal of resources from the many into the hands of the few, badly dressed up as mob rule.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. That is why it is called GOVERNMENT BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE.
And please enlighten me, what world view is it that you belive to have challenged? If you are so sure of what my world view is Lote tree, put weight behind it for once, and tell me what my world view is!
I challenged your world view of THEOCRACY and have shown you how absurd it is.
Its not like you excactly are shining in this debat. Putting words into peoples mouth impress noone.
It is good to have critics.
It means that what you are saying has some weight!Regards,
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I have its THEOCRACY. You said it yourself and Ayman and I have showed you the absurdity of THEOCRACY.
Ayman and i both agreed to what a theocracy is. I dont know what youre talking about. Its the book s unchangeable guidelines, i have never claimed anything but that. You just talk so much you didnt realise it.
Are there any universel definition of theocracy that i am unaware of, or am i allowed to have my own interpretation of it?
I have done no such thing! I spoke strongly about DEMOCRACY and how it serves humanity best.
where is the evidence?
Communism is an Idealist dictatorship but they can't see it because of their idealism. That is why communism failed.
It failed because it was meant to. All part of "the game of the ages". It has nothing to do with ideology, as it didnt when it started up. thats just what people was told.
Elite? That is nonsense Noah! Mr. Shahid Malik a Bengali from Bangladesh has risen to hights of power in the Government of UK. He came from very humble beginings and now has become a an eloquent voice for the Asian Minorities in the British Political system. And there are many examples like him. In a dictatorship people like him will have no chance to put their talent into good use.
HAHAHAHAHAHA and you belive he has any power? OMG Lote Tree you seriously need to wake up. All he is, is a minority puppet that makes democracy "look good". He can change a little here and there. But the fact about democracy is that it is a train ran amok, where we dont know the real driver, and we are debating about the color of the doorknobs on the toilet door. If you think thats power. thats fine. I think it ridiculous.
Blair is not elite. Bush is the from the lower echelon of the elite. The elite is people who have REAL money. Not that paper, and credit stuff where told to take for face value, and they have more than you can imagine. In numbers it is like this. 5% of the worlds population control 95% of the worlds resources. Of those 5 %, LESS than 1% are true elite. This amounts to ca. 8000 individuals worldwide, who are the de facto power in the world today. They give you democracy, facism, communism, whatever help their agenda of want more.
Or as Rotshild, a lower echelon elite said it ; "Give me the control of a nations money, and i care not who makes the laws"
I will give you a tip. Rotschild+bank of england. Politics control NOTHING. money control ALL!
In a democracy it is the golden rule. He who has the goild makes the rule. And if your comfortable with that. fine. Im not!
I don't want a dictator in my face with his POWER! And any sane, intelligent person with an ounce of self-dignity will find this very demeaning!
Ohh lets twist again. like we did...No seriously lote tree, the example was not me prasing a dictator, but the fact that overt control are more honest than covert control. And you know it was, now behave.
And the DICTATOR knows you are HIS enemy. He will kill you to maintain his POWER without batting an eye-lid. And he will continue go on killing people to maintian his grip on POWER. In a DEMOCRACY electorate is NOT the enemy nor is the Electorial Candidates the Enemy.
Tell that to the people at WACO, The montana freemen, tell that to all the people put in jail for crimes such as smoking a joint, so a PRIVATE jail institution can make more money. Im telling you, just because you dont see it, does not mean its not there )
As I said before if you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change that. If you think special interest groups undermining democracy then work to change that! So Noah, work hard to change it!
It has been like that since day one. We have had ours for 200 years, and people. THOUSANDs of people have worked incredibly hard, so ahrd some of them died. Yet...its still the same`?! I wonder why that be? A few minor adjustments here and there. And a special interrest group are often not someone who go out in public and say. "Look mates, we want to manipulate your thinking by showing you slated and biased "news", so we can get away with pretty much anything, like going to war on no basis etc. " Then we would like to manipulate you into accepting unfair taxation laws, that on the surface will be sold of as good, but in fact means that we get a hell of a lot richer, and you get to pay for it. thank you.
Get real Lote Tree.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. That is why it is called GOVERNMENT BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE.
the record is broke cracle the record is broke cracle the record is borke* cracle*.
Lote Tree, now im going to try it real simple... if framework skewed, and engine no work, no car drive, yes?
I challenged your world view of THEOCRACY and have shown you how absurd it is.
Oh,,i must have forgot, what was my view on theorcracy again? thats right, you dont know, because i didnt tell you. all you did was go out on a tangent of nonsense about the wonders of a system that is less bad than the one you came from, and dictators. So please tell me, what IS my view on theorcracy? Or could it be that you are judging my view on theorcracy by how YOU look at theorcracy? i think thats the one!
It is good to have critics.
It means that what you are saying has some weight!ofcourse it is. But only if they actually makes sense.
Regards
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Noah that link is very boring did not read it completely. Maybe latter look at it.
What you are saying I said the same things about democracy?
The majority of so called democratic system is duped with 24/7 network propaganda and they really don't have the wisdom and intelligence to elect for once a honest politician. The majority will keep voting for the biggest liar corrupt politcian and the people like me will always be on the losing side.