Is Quran anti- secular?
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SaLaM idmkhizar
Here is the link
How Authentic Is The Quran.
Refute the evidence if you can. Mquran has already embaressed himself on this thread.
Khi- Salam. The problem is mquran doesnt believe in code-19 miracle so it may well be that his arguments will fail. This only further strengthens my point. Without code-19 you cannot prove the Quran, not in this time period. We dont know what the future holds but right now code-19 is the access or as bro Bahman would say the GPS GOD cerated for us to get access to the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Salaam KGB
Forum has turned into a complete mess with shameless people who believe that the Qur'anic Laws are corrupt and do not hesitate with shamless claims Qur'anic Laws would be very much different if the revelation was in present time.
The level of intelligence of these idiots can be determined by the questions like speed of driving, computer hacking. They have no intelligence and no knowledge of the message.
Have you been bullied or are you being bullied now. Please dont keep suffering like this as there are good counsellor out there who can help you. (
Salaam jaxal
What harm have monkeys inflicted upon you that you have to be so rude them wink wink
Salaam PM
Please continue to keep your cool. D
regards
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Looks like I missed on Lotetree's confession that he is kufr. Can u enlighten us?
I never confessed to a such thing!
I don't label myself with anything.
I am just a human being. And if anyone has a problem with that and want to put a label on me then it is their problem. I won't go to the Moderators and complain and threaten to quit from this forum!But I will not label people so easily. I take all individuals as human beings. And if these humans beings want to believe that the world is flat and is supported on the back of giant turtle or that their scripture gives them a "high" conceptual adventure then I will not label them as "kufr" or "blinkered"...
So for everyones information this is a summary of my position, this was response to nehdia's thread, if any one one to look it up...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4039&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
This being the case, I no longer feel the need to bind myself to the dictates of any one scripture, or any scripture at all.
I am impressed with your insight into the connections between the worlds religions. I have myself being arguing on this forum that "transcendence" is the key to human spirituality, and the reality that many have called "God", "Allah", "Nirvana", "Tao", "Brahman-Atman" are derived from the human experience of "transcendence". All scripture is therefore is an interpretation in limited human language of a "transcendent" reality that lies beyond reason and language. This has also been the insight of the Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Mystics and Meditators. But it has been hard to make others see this connection that you have made on your own.
I have also argued that "God" is not an OBJECTIVE fact but has always been a SUBJECTIVE experience of the individual. Even Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to highest heavens for the revelations but rather he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative-trance" to meet his "maker". Therefore "Revelation" is an event that happens in each individual soul and therefore every individual is capable of having an experience like the Prophets. This experience is had via meditation.
As for myself I have not progressed enough in my meditation to "confirm" any of this "trascendence" yet. But I have so far achieved a "sense" of "infinte space" and "unity" within myself in my meditation sessions. I would like to believe, however, I am on the right track and perhaps one day it may lead to enlightenement. I will just have to remain patient, courageous and dedicated and continue to cultivate and nurture compassion for my fellow human beings and for myself too.
I am glad that your spiritual transformation have helped you to deal with your sexuality and the abuse. My spiritual transformation has allowed me to connect with humanity regardless of their religious beliefs as opposed to connecting myself to a certain scripture or set of beliefs. I now celeberate the best of humanity and also come to terms with worst of humanity through understanding. But I have not reached the end yet. I am still learning, I am still continuing with my spiritual journey but I am glad that I have met another traveller on this lonely spiritual path
Regards,
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SaLaM stillearning and idmkhizar
stillearning
I guess in the world KGB lives, there is no speeding or computer hacking... what is that? Neverland? D
idmkhizar
I will be waiting for your refutation on that post. Lets continue the discussion there. Ok? )
Khi- Salam- What refutation? They dont believe in code-19, thats it, all the other arguments are useless and have been repeated over and over again. GOD Bless!
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Salaamun alaikum Khi,
Khi- Salam. So then you probably believe in 9128&129 as part of Quran which would make you a non Quran Aloner acording to me.
Dude, there's the following camps
- submitters
- yuksel's neo-submitters
- toluislam
- neo-toluislam by shabbir ahmed
- layth's camp
all claiming to be 'quranic'. I dont believe in any of thier methods. What do you think your opinion does to me ?
As long as Im in concordance with al-quraan, that's all i care about.
2ndly did you study each and every point carefully before conclusing such or just skimmed through it and then a person came up pointing out some "errors" to you and you said "thts it, its nonsese"?
In the summer of 1999, the debate went on for months. At one point, 250 mails were sent in a DAY. But at the end, the 19er Arch-priestess Aisha Musa couldn't answer the questions. That sealed the issue for me.
If the latter is the case i advise you to be more careful.Study each and every point with care. Thats all i can say. In a post "to ming lo..." i mentioned some important websites which i advise you should consider.
Thanks. I know the arguments and i've answered them , with due respect.
Last but not least without code-19 the Quran cannot be proven thus your being bent on following Quranic laws is based simply on your heart's feeling rather than rationality. GOD Bless!
Pal, GOD HIMSELF didn't postulate your reasoning. Check these 2 out
EVEN IF We had sent unto thee a written parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say "This is nothing but obvious magic (6/7)
EVEN IF We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,They would only say "Our eyes have been intoxicated Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (15/14-15)
So God's telling us, EVEN IF he showed this, they wouldn't believe. So this is the best objective evidence he can give yet people won't believe. So please, don't set up conditions about how to believe in al-quraan when Allah already set it up for you.
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Forum has turned into a complete mess with shameless people who believe that the Qur'anic Laws are corrupt and do not hesitate with shamless claims Qur'anic Laws would be very much different if the revelation was in present time.
Brother KGB, think of it like this Is al-quraan from Allah and did it tell us without qualification to judge with it? If our answer is 'yes' sincerely (unlike most ppl on this thread), then how can it be different if al-quraan descended today? Its only because these democrats are intoxicated with modernity not knowing Allah said about following the vain desires. Sadly, there's nothing we can do except deliver the message.
The level of intelligence of these idiots can be determined by the questions like speed of driving, computer hacking. They have no intelligence and no knowledge of the message.
More importantly, they dont WANT to know it. Seeing just how many times the modernists quote the ayaat is enough for me to see thier sincerety. Al-quraan have us flexibility of how we carry out His Commands, but His Commands are constant.
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Khi- Salam. The problem is mquran doesnt believe in code-19 miracle so it may well be that his arguments will fail. This only further strengthens my point. Without code-19 you cannot prove the Quran, not in this time period. We dont know what the future holds but right now code-19 is the access or as bro Bahman would say the GPS GOD cerated for us to get access to the Quran. GOD Bless!
Khizar, you seem like a sincere chap unlike some people. You know the ayaat which is your signature. THAT'S the key to understanding the authenticity and conceptual power of al-quraan. Al-quraan is the ETERNAL PROPHECY of humankind. Humankind cannot operate outside its laws, THATS the grip of Allah. That's all I have to say to you. Peace.
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I never confessed to a such thing!
I don't label myself with anything.
I am just a human being. And if anyone has a problem with that and want to put a label on me then it is their problem. I won't go to the Moderators and complain and threaten to quit from this forum!Simple question to LoteTree (he avoided my precise syntax for a reason)
Do you believe al-quraan is God's eternal system for humankind?
Yes or no?
If answer is no, that's kufr to the Quran.
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Hi,
I am not sure how much we all understand of God?s system and the guidelines laid down in God?s words in the quran and the signs in the world around us.
Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??
It seems to be a common understanding that the rules and regulations we can find in the quran are in opposition to the function of the human being and the universe as a whole.
Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.
It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a ?muslim? he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I don?t quite know how to put it; maybe ?stupidity? is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a ?muslim? one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a ?muslim?.There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To ?run a country? in accordance to the ?laws? of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of God?s system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.There is no such thing as complete and total democracy.
We all have to obey certain ground rules in the universe that humans can not change, however much we wish to do so.
Democracy, therefore, works within a frame of rules and regulations, outside of human control.
This seems to be difficult to understand.The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.
We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you ?do not believe?. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you ?do not understand? that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.
All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.
As an example, the quran does not say that, if you are proven a fornicator, then you MUST be punished with 100 lashes.
It sets a tough maximum punishment as a possibility, to emphasize that this can be a very detrimental action. However, punishment is not the primary goal in islam, the way it usually is in our human law systems; it is to lead us and to set things right, in any way possible, if something wrong has been done.Many of the detailed laws we have developed ourselves, take into account the circumstances surrounding an act, thereby diversifying legal actions.
Why do we not consider God to be vastly more capable of this than some individual human beings?
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why don?t we reflect on what to use these gifts for?
What is important to us as a group called humanity?
To worship ?something?........? To feed our egos............? What?Regards
Ali Omar
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Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into muslims and non-muslims?
Misleading question. The essential being of humankind is ummatan wahid, a single ummah however, since people seek things between themselves, its THEY who cause themselve to be divided (2/213). So you can either be in submission to God's system or not.
It seems to be a common understanding that the rules and regulations we can find in the quran are in opposition to the function of the human being and the universe as a whole.
A wrongful understanding if it is indeed common. Al-quraan's laws are there to ensure the creation of salaam in our lives.
Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?
The modernists/democrats don't because to them, al-quraan is an outdated book.
The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.
This is your opinion. Evidence please.
It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a muslim he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I dont quite know how to put it; maybe stupidity is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a muslim one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a muslim.I agree with you on 'stupidity' but disagree in your last sentence. In Quranic discourse, a 'muslim' is a person who has committed himself to growth in an islamic domain. Its similar to being a citizen if you like. As a citizen you undertake the contract to follow laws of a certain polity. A muslim follows something similar to this. So if a christian entered a muslim domain with this pledge, he's a 'muslim'. He can believe whatever he likes and pray however he likes. That's not being encroached upon whatsoeer.
There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To run a country in accordance to the laws of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.Agreed. Well said.
There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of Gods system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.I do understand how such naiveness exists. The media does invade the minds to that degree in most cases.
There is no such thing as complete and total democracy.
We all have to obey certain ground rules in the universe that humans can not change, however much we wish to do so.
Democracy, therefore, works within a frame of rules and regulations, outside of human control.
This seems to be difficult to understand.This frame of rules and regulations is the human essence. Al-quraan is the detailling of that essence.
The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.Evidence please, that al-quraan is 'a guide to an optimal form of democracy'.
We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.
Your syntax doesn't follow here. The interpretative gap, as I call it , which lies between text and understanding of text will always exist. We can only narrow the gap. But whatever we DO understand, we must follow to the letter.
It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you do not believe. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you do not understand that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.
Well, Al-quraan calls it 'laa yuminoon'/ they do not believe. I take this to mean that thier essence has been made inaccessible due to kufr (concealment) of God's signs, especially within.
All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.
As an example, the quran does not say that, if you are proven a fornicator, then you MUST be punished with 100 lashes.How do you interpret that? 24/1 begins with an emphatic statement about how obligatory al-quraan is on us. I take that as a 'must'.
It sets a tough maximum punishment as a possibility, to emphasize that this can be a very detrimental action. However, punishment is not the primary goal in islam, the way it usually is in our human law systems; it is to lead us and to set things right, in any way possible, if something wrong has been done.
Agreed. Allah commands with justice and ihsaan/proportionate beauty characterised by asmaaul husna.
Many of the detailed laws we have developed ourselves, take into account the circumstances surrounding an act, thereby diversifying legal actions.
Why do we not consider God to be vastly more capable of this than some individual human beings?
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why dont we reflect on what to use these gifts for?
What is important to us as a group called humanity?
To worship something........? To feed our egos............? What?What is important to humanity/an-naas is to live so that they may live, die and rise in salaam.
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salaam
But I will not label people so easily. I take all individuals as human beings. And if these humans beings want to believe that the world is flat and is supported on the back of giant turtle or that their scripture gives them a "high" conceptual adventure then I will not label them as "kufr" or "blinkered
Good for you
regards
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SaLaM Idris
lol u do believe this? despite the fact it came from a "hadith"?
Looooolll no idris, i dont beleive that. But who knows... 1400 years have passed. The shias claim that a surah has been taken out of the Quan. Do you think that they just woke up one day and thought "Ahh i know, i will claim that a surah has been taken out of the Quran to support my belief" ?
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SaLaM idmkhizar
Wow. So you are given two verses from the Quran. One with added words and you think its becoz they dont beleive in code 19? That dont even make sense. Code 19 has nothing to do with the alteration in the Quran.
Khi- Salam. Code-19 defines the boundaries of the Qran in our age. Without that there is no Quran but simply conjecture. The Quran as i made cear many times is not just some ink on a piece of paper or manuscript. GOD Bless!
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hypocrisy?
here is a transcript of a converstation with the forum member "mquran".
19/09/2005 113554 mq - its like humans have 2 dynamic poles
19/09/2005 113559 mq - the heaven and the earth
19/09/2005 113603 mq -heavenS, sorry
19/09/2005 113623 mq -part of us soar in this heavenly realm, which the poet captures
19/09/2005 113644 mq -but our earthly realm brings us back
19/09/2005 113700 mq -this is where my love of mystical poetry ends
19/09/2005 113705 Lote-Tree -poet captures both chap..
19/09/2005 113715 Lote-Tree -the hell as well as the heaven
19/09/2005 113734 mq -agreed.., but where we depart is that actual program
19/09/2005 113754 mq -i think heaven can be found in the earthly side of things
19/09/2005 113759 mq -if we follow the path
19/09/2005 113803 Lote-Tree -heaven is within us
19/09/2005 113809 Lote-Tree -hell is within us
19/09/2005 113833 Lote-Tree -we would not know the differnece without them
19/09/2005 113901 mq -potentially, yes
19/09/2005 113917 mq -but they must be given birth to
19/09/2005 113930 mq -thats the whole point
19/09/2005 114027 Lote-Tree - elaborate
19/09/2005 114052 mq - well, the concept of heaven is within us, its actualisability is also within our grasp
19/09/2005 114103 mq -but in order to bring it forth, that requires a prograk
19/09/2005 114107 mq -progam*
19/09/2005 114115 mq -all human beings seek that
19/09/2005 114138 mq -the quran calls this 'al-kitaab'...the writ
19/09/2005 114157 mq -as a programmer, what are u trying to do ? ur WRITING something which the system understands
19/09/2005 114206 mq -why ? in order to exploit the usage of the system
19/09/2005 114235 mq -if we discover LIFE'S program, we could do the same
19/09/2005 114352 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 114417 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs
19/09/2005 114429 Lote-Tree -so why bother with quran?
19/09/2005 114513 mq -its the best programming language
19/09/2005 114524 mq -i have not seen concepts so illustrated
19/09/2005 114533 Lote-Tree -for you it is mquran... for you it is
19/09/2005 114538 mq -oh agreedSee the highlighted and now see what you have written now
Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?
Hypocrisy?
I think so....
Regards,
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Salam mquran,
Dude, there's the following camps
- submitters
- yuksel's neo-submitters
- toluislam
- neo-toluislam by shabbir ahmed
- layth's camp
all claiming to be 'quranic'. I dont believe in any of thier methods. What do you think your opinion does to me ?
As long as Im in concordance with al-quraan, that's all i care about.
Khi- It's true there are many different "camps" or rather people who understand some parts of Quran differently but that's not the main issue. The main issue is that there are those who dont believe in code-19 yet claim to believe in Quran. I dont understand how that is possible. It just doesnt seem logical to me because in this way anyone can just add up some verses in between what you now call as Quran and voila in a few years therell be a group having another "quran" with additional verses. Those who believe in code-19 i dont have much problems with them even if we have more or less differences in interpretation of ceratin verses for i believe those would be clarified gradually in the future GW as per the ayat in my signature.
In the summer of 1999, the debate went on for months. At one point, 250 mails were sent in a DAY. But at the end, the 19er Arch-priestess Aisha Musa couldn't answer the questions. That sealed the issue for me.
Khi- I dont know why your putting an innocent woman down. Why dont you challenge bro Edip to a debate and then well see?
Thanks. I know the arguments and i've answered them , with due respect.
Khi- Ok.
Pal, GOD HIMSELF didn't postulate your reasoning. Check these 2 out
EVEN IF We had sent unto thee a written parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say "This is nothing but obvious magic (6/7)
EVEN IF We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,They would only say "Our eyes have been intoxicated Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (15/14-15)
So God's telling us, EVEN IF he showed this, they wouldn't believe. So this is the best objective evidence he can give yet people won't believe. So please, don't set up conditions about how to believe in al-quraan when Allah already set it up for you.
Khi- In the above verses GOD is obviously talking about the people who have received enough signs and yet are rejecting and thus would continue to reject, logically which is not the case with code-19 believers for they surely believe dont they? This ofcourse varies from time to time from generation to generation and GOD knows this. Thats why the following verse
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, We produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
The above verses you quoted are often brough up by code-19 rejectors and then i show them verses from the Quran that those who reject GOD's "ayaat(any signs from GOD)" are kaafir no matter whether theyd believed before and thats the issue here. It's not that we asked for code-19. GOD knew why and He is the one Who sent it to us and we would be arrogant to reject it, plain and simple. GOD Bless!