Salat 3 or 5? Proving 5

JHamza

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nazz

Peace JHamza,

I can see you're trying to figure out all of this Salat stuff. Print out the following verses (all of the verses pertaining to the salat times) or go here to compare six different translations simultaneously http//www.submission.org/quran/webqt.php

2238, 1778, 2458, 11114

Sift through them, thinking hard about the nuances of the words used and the resulting possibilities they allow for. Divide them up into the different Salat times.

JHamza

Peace JHamza,

I can see you're trying to figure out all of this Salat stuff. Print out the following verses (all of the verses pertaining to the salat times) or go here to compare six different translations simultaneously http//www.submission.org/quran/webqt.php

2238, 1778, 2458, 11114

Sift through them, thinking hard about the nuances of the words used and the resulting possibilities they allow for. Divide them up into the different Salat times.

Peace Nazz,
Thanks for the link,I'll be sure to use it alot for my studies D

To me all versions seem to imply the early part of night for 11114..

Khalifa
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.

Yusuf Ali
And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)

Pickthal
Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful.

Shakir
And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful.

Sher Ali
And observe Prayer at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night. Surely, good works drive away evil ones. This is a reminder for those who would remember.

"Progressive Muslims"
And you shall hold the assembly at both ends of the daylight and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

Thanks again...

JHamza

I was beginning to see THREE Salat times,but Im seeing FIVE Times for Salat again...

Surah 11
114. And perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), at the two ends of the day and in some hours of the night.Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds. That is a reminder (an advice) for the mindful(those who accept advice).

3 prayers hereTwo ends of the day(sunrise/sunset) and at night..

Surah 17
78. You shall observe the Salat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed..
79. And in some parts of the night offer the Salat with it (i.e. recite the Qur'an in the prayer), as an additional prayer for you . It may be that your Lord will raise you to a Station of Praise and Glory.

The Dawn salat being mentioned again along with a mid-day/ salat in 1778..and the night salat that was referred to in 11114 is mentioned again as an additional one,but in 11114 it merely states for us to observe it as with the ones at the ends of the day...

Surah 2
238.Guard strictly ?Salaw?t, especially the middle Salat. And stand before Allah with obedience.

A middle salat?From the above surahs I see 4 salat times Dawn,Midday,Sunset and Night,but we all know 4 doesn't have a Middle,so it must be referring to another Salat, I believe it is referring to the afternoon Salat as mentioned in 3018.

Hence- 5 prayers-(1) Fajr 11114 & 1778; (2) Zuhr 1778; (3) The Middle Salat/Asr 2238; (4) Maghrib 11114; (5) Isha 11114 & 1779.

DAWN(Fajr)-NOON(Zuhr)-MIDDLE/AFTERNOON(Asr)-SUNSET(Maghrib)-NIGHT(Isha).

nazz

This is exactly the problem I went through when figuring out how many salat there are. There are many different translations, and mixing them gives rise to several possibilites for the number of salat. ?

Ya gotta use a system of elimination, that works regardless of the translations used. You really need to be working with the analyses of the Arabic nuances associated with the words of these verses.

Also, 1779 does not indicate a seperate salat. It is merely suggesting extra meditation on the salat you've already carried out, or possibly just meditation in general.

JHamza

Also, 1779 does not indicate a seperate salat. It is merely suggesting extra meditation on the salat you've already carried out, or possibly just meditation in general.

Yeah it can be looked at that way I suppose,but if you compare it to 11114 which mentions a night time salat period,you could conclude then that 1779 is referring to the same period of Salat..

nazz

Hmmm, given that all the salat times are specifically referred to using the word "salat", I think it might be drawing a long bow...

JHamza

Hmmm, given that all the salat times are specifically referred to using the word "salat", I think it might be drawing a long bow...

And perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), at the two ends of the day and in some hours of the night . Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds. That is a reminder for the mindful.
And in some parts of the night (also) offer the Sal?t with it(reciting the Quran), as an additional prayer (Tahajjud additional prayer Naw?fil) for you. It may be that your Lord will raise you to a station of praise and glory!).

Both Surahs use the word Salat and 1779 even explains that the during salat we are to offer an additional prayer along with reading the Quran...

(Note to SelfSalat means a religious act of communication between man and the God/Allah,which can be meditation,reading the Quran and Prayer.1778-79 uses both salat and Nawafil to explain that these salat times are for both praying and reciting the Quran during our Salat)

Seems to be saying at night offer the Salat as an additional prayer..Thats clear enough for me..

nazz

G'day JHamza,

Have you read this article?
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_edip.htm

"You shall observe the contact prayers at both ends of the daylight, that is, during the adjacent hours of the night. . . " (11114)

Traditional translators and commentators consider the last clause "zulfan minal layl" of this verse as a seperate prayer indicating to the "night" prayer. However, we consider that clause not as an addition but as an explanation of the previous ambigious clause; it explains the temporal direction of the ends of the day. The limits of "Nahar" (daylight) is marked by two distinct points sunrise and sunset. In other words, two prayers should be observed not just after sunrise and before senset, but before sunrise and after sunset.

I especially liked the use of the comparison with the bible;

"As for me, I will call upon God; and the Lord shall save me. Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud and he shall hear my voice." (Psalms 5516-17) (PS crying aloud apparently means praying with passion).

"Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 610)

Cheers

JHamza

G'day JHamza,

Have you read this article?
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_edip.htm

"You shall observe the contact prayers at both ends of the daylight, that is, during the adjacent hours of the night. . . " (11114)

Traditional translators and commentators consider the last clause "zulfan minal layl" of this verse as a seperate prayer indicating to the "night" prayer. However, we consider that clause not as an addition but as an explanation of the previous ambigious clause; it explains the temporal direction of the ends of the day. The limits of "Nahar" (daylight) is marked by two distinct points sunrise and sunset. In other words, two prayers should be observed not just after sunrise and before senset, but before sunrise and after sunset.

I especially liked the use of the comparison with the bible;

"As for me, I will call upon God; and the Lord shall save me. Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud and he shall hear my voice." (Psalms 5516-17) (PS crying aloud apparently means praying with passion).

"Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 610)

Cheers

Good Morning nazz,
No I seemed to have missed that article..I will read it and get back with you..Oh BTW, that quote you give sounds very resonable,I need to read the entire article...
Yeah I recall those Biblical Verses...

Thanks again for the link...

JHamza

D idea cry ? cry

AbdulMajid

From what I've read in two translations of 20130 we are commanded to do salaat at dawn, noon, afternoon, evening, and night. Notice that this ayat does not say the night prayer is voluntary. I recall a voluntary night meditation mentioned in the Koran though.

Does anyone here have to do salaat while at work? How does that go?

unknownuser

From what I've read in two translations of 20130 we are commanded to do salaat at dawn, noon, afternoon, evening, and night. Notice that this ayat does not say the night prayer is voluntary. I recall a voluntary night meditation mentioned in the Koran though.

Does anyone here have to do salaat while at work? How does that go?

Hello

I'm following the 5 salat as the sunni because this is the most confirmed info that I have regarding Salat, I don't acceot the hadith of 50 salata tgoing down to 5 though because this is just non sense

all people at my work respect my religion and what i need to do to fullfil it, I pray in a seperate room "Zohr" and sometimes Asr if I haven'y gone home by that time, I also scored an agreement with them 4 years ago to take fridays off instead of giving me a pay rise, this will kae free on fridays to do the gathering Salata hpwever I haven't found a mosque that satisfies me with what they say inside to do the salat with them, I just don't want it to look like someting I have to do while inside me can see their flaw in most of what they say, so I pray Zohr instead on fridays

at work they also know that i fight the enemy of Islam online and some of them even watch my movies and they love it despite the rated material or langugae that can be used in'm, Alhamdullelah I have total freedom at work

peace

JHamza

Peace All,
Whats confusing to everyone is the parts of 20130 that says parts of the day or both ends of the day and during parts of the night.Some take this to mean dawn and evening while others see them speaking of different times.

Faisbir AAala mayaqooloona wasabbih bihamdi rabbika qabla tulooAAialshshamsi waqabla ghuroobiha wamin ana-iallayli fasabbih waatrafa alnnaharilaAAallaka tarda

Khalifa Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

Yusuf Ali Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.

Pickthal Therefor (O Muhammad), bear with what they say, and celebrate the praise of thy Lord ere the rising of the sun and ere the going down thereof. And glorify Him some hours of the night and at the two ends of the day, that thou mayst find acceptance.

Shakir Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during hours of the night do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be well pleased

Sher Ali Bear patiently then what they say, and glorify thy Lord with HIS praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and glorify HIM in the hours of the night and all parts of the day, that thou mayest find true happiness.

JHamza

Dawn-Fajr
?rise in the morning?--- 3017
?morning salat?--- 2458
?before the rising of the sun?---20130

Noon-Zuhr
"when the sun declines from its highest point at noon"---1778
?when the day begins to decline?--- 3018

Afternoon-Asr/Al Wusta
"the Middle Prayer"---2238

Sunset-Maghrib
"ends of the day"---11114
?reach eventide?---3017
?'before it?s setting?---20130

Night-Isha
?late-night/Evening salat?---2458
waAAashiyyan=?and the evening?---3018
11114 Wa (and) + Zulafan Mina Al Layl (during the night)
"And during the night"---20130

From the above it would appear to be referring to 5 times for Salat,unless you believe 3018 is referring to the Sunset Salat.
But that would leave 4 Salat.Unless you take into account that 2238 refers to al-salat al-wusta the middle salat or the Salat nearest the Center".This would then imply more than 4,hence 5.

salati alAAisha(al-Isha) in 2458

So if these times all refer to the sunset salat then that would leave dawn/sunrise/morning as 1 and sunset/afternoon/evening/night as 1=2 then we come to 2238 which mentions a middle salat bring us to 3 salats..

Which view is 100% correct I dont have the foggiest idea,thats why I think we all need to learn classic Arabic..to learn what the original language meant and not what modern Arabic means.

What makes it hard is that words may mean more than one thing and everyone and their grandparents have their idea which is correct,one more reason we need to learn classic Arabic.

JHamza

In 399.. it says
Amman huwa qanitun anaaallayli sajidan waqa-iman yahtharu al-akhiratawayarjoo rahmata rabbihi qul hal yastawee allatheenayaAAlamoona waallatheena la yaAAlamoonainnama yatathakkaru oloo al-albabi

Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or standing , who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord? Say "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.
Another possible reference to the Night Salat,since salat is worship/devotion to GOD.

Whats the word for night in this?I dont see isha....

JHamza

11114
Wa-this Arabic word is equivalent to ?and? in English.

Zulafan-this word is translated as ?during?

Al Layl-This word means ?the night? in English

Waaqimi (You shall observe) + Al Salaat (worship) + Tarafayin Nahar (at both ends of the day) + Wa (and) + Zulafan Mina Al Layl (during the night)

When we break this verse down, word for word, we can clearly see that it is talking about 3 prayers or 3 times to perform salaat (worship). One of the biggest threat to the proponents of the 3 salaat theory is the Arabic word ?Wa (and)?

Allah is the One who revealed the Holy Qur?aan and He used the word Wa (and) to add an additional time to perform salaat or pray. Let me give you an example in the Qur?aan so that you can see how the Arabic word Wa (and) is used. In Qur?aan 348 Allah used the Arabic word Wa (and) to separate the list of scriptures

WayuAAallimuhu alkitaba waalhikmatawaalttawrata waal-injeela
"And Allah will teach him the Book (and) Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

"He will teach him the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel."

The scriptures spoken of in this verse (The Book of Wisdom, The Torah, The Injiyl) was separated by the Arabic word ?Wa? which is equivalent to the English word ?and?. Allah have used this same Arabic word ?Wa? right after the phrase ?Tarafayin Nahar {both ends of the day-which is the Dawn Prayer (Fajr) and Afternoon Prayer (Zuhr)}? to add or list an ADDITIONAL time to pray or to perform salaat which is at night (Isha)

Wa Zulafan Mina Al Layl ( and during the night).

Since the phrase Wa Zulafan Mina Al Layl (and during the night) is mentioned in (11114) that means Tarafayin Nahar (both ends of the day) have to be referring to the Dawn and SunsetSalat.

There is no way in the world the proponents of the 3 salaat theory can justify that Qur?aan 11114 is only referring to 2 salaats. They have falsely interpreted that verse and purposely mistranslated that verse below to support their man-made-innovation

Careful examination of that verse in Arabic clearly exposes their false translation and interpretation and did you also notice that they left out the Arabic word ?Wa? which is equivalent to ?and? in English in their translation. They did not bother at all to translate the Arabic word Wa (and) in their so-called English translation, they act like it doesn?t exist.

They know that it would place doubt in the minds of the reader if they left Wa (and) in their English translation; they did not want that dynamic to stick out for the obvious reasons, similiarly how the Sunni Muslims do not leave the Arabic word hadiyth in their English translation. The Sunni Muslims know if they would leave hadiyth in their translations of Al Qur?aan, the people would clearly see that hadiyths are condemned by Allah right in the Holy Qur?aan and will start to question their sectarian teachings that they have been brainwashed with.
The Arabic word Wa (and) is there and it is clear as day light. Again it does not take a rocket scientist to understand the twisted motives behind the proponents of the 3 salaat theory for leaving that word out because they know deep down inside that the Arabic word Wa (and) will undermind/expose the foundation of their argument of trying to deceive the Muslim world into thinking that Qur?aan 11114 is referring to only 2 salaats instead of 3.

AbdulMajid

Peace be upon you all

AhmedBahgat

MashaAllah! Hey that's great about work!

JHamza

Thank you for that. I kind of had the feeling that the five times per day were not quite salaat but rather just praises and glorification.

Elke

Peace hamza

i have a different understanding and the "wa" doesn't interfere with it. Uphold salat at both ends of the day "wa" near the night, which would pin down the timeframe to dawn and sunset, not a short time after sunrise or before sunset.

On the other hand just now a thought pop's up in my mind - a sura says, as far as i remember, to start maghreb just before sunset roll Guess i have to take the question up again...

another argument that disturbed me at the time was that it is zulafan (three or more) and not zulafain (which would refer to 2) - but even native arab speaker do not come to a clear conclusion, and my idea, if there is a third prayer (and it is not the most balaced prayer) - wusta would be a noon prayer

wasn't it easier the sunni way wink

elke

JHamza