Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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You started out in the thread by saying, no phonebook logic, this is what spawned a debate on human logic in generel. Maybe i am wrong, but i assumed you where reffering to the logic analysis of "if it had been from other than God....". By default human logic alone, as demonstrated, this statement is true, given that its logical equivalence is true aswell. If the logical equlence is to have the same truth value, a phonebook is indeed from God. Any speculation as to what books God might mean with this, is pure speculation on behalf of the reader.
lol Books claiming to be from God. Logic starts with a premise. They would have found in IT much discrepancy. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what IT means. It is just comprehension if you read the verse NOT speculation.
havent said that it is, on the contrary, you chose to misunderstand a statement i made,wich i 2 times now has clarified, and take it to walk out on a tangent.
You said it is 'off topic' not clarified it imo. If you don't want to talk about some of your statements claiming they are not the point you are trying to make, that's okay.
given that it is supposedly the key to our salvation that IS a problem. Unless ofcourse the salvation lies in us reading it nomatter what we read in it. there is no facit to the book, thus it is unusable as anything but ethical guidelines as nobody will know the right answer untill the examn is over. In other words. We are given the examn and then we will get educated (in hell or heavenb) wich on its own makes very little sense.
The book is the key to salvation? Where do you get this from? What about blind and deaf people? The book is a guide or a shortcut.
a book from wich we always can find "bullets of truth" to shoot at people who disagrees with us. And i have your own words for that the book means anything we want it to, thus the "bullets of truth" is anything we want them to be in any given context we want it to be. Not excactly clear speak is it?
This you can do with any book or movie. Is that fault of the text or yourself?
But it tells me it hasnt been corrupted, and the only evidence i have of it, is the book claiming it is so. So without a first copy, i cannot verify that there is no corruption to it. Thus the statement is pr.default, false. As the book altso makes clear that we shoudnt take anything for face value, but confrim things ourself. How can i confirm this, with the Quran here and now, when i know for a fact that changes HAS been made to it, like insertion of grammer marks.
Logic starts with a premise. It says it's from God. It says if it was from other than God there would be much discrepancy in it. There is your clue. No first copies needed. It gives you the chance to do so. Do the grammar marks create a discrepancy? Can it be solved without creating a discrepancy anywhere else? Prove it false or discrepancy ridden.
THis is no different from what the xtians claim to be doing with their book.
This learning process is avaible to anyone, altso people without a book end up believing in God, and doing good deeds. And i still claim that to do this, often you have to bend corners of logic, wich is against the book itself.So what if the 'xtians' claim this that or whatnot? What do I care? Then you say it is available to everyone. Yes it is. What I don't understand is the last statement. People without a book end up believing in God and doing good deeds are 'bending corners of logic'?
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i guess most of that which i have posted has already been posted on some site or the other and also been addressed, but still just to tackle the first of this bunch....
enquirer wrote
Peace all. Ok,some translations state that only god can know what is in the wombs...(end of surah 31.) What about the new pictures we have on an ultrasound of babies in the womb? Can you see an inconsistency with the literal interpretations?31 34 With God is the knowledge regarding the Hour. And He sends down the rain, and He knows what is inside the wombs. No soul knows what it may gain tomorrow, nor does any soul know in which land it will die. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.
where does it say only god knows what is in the wombs? that said it could also mean other things! -)
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If only you defended the truth as well as you try to defend yourself and your opinions of your book...
You can't seem to do a good job defending any.
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Peace all. Magi makes a very good point. If verse 4;82 states that if the quran was from other than allah there would be many contradictions in it.
Then this means any book without an obvious contradiction can be claimed to be from god...This gives divine claims to phonebooks,scientific journals,posters on free-minds( D .),sports magazines,newspaper reports etc,etc...Not much of a special claim,or is it?... Also does it not give a chance for the person(by human logic.) to state the book is not all from allah?
I could put that claim in a very small pamphlet,verse or my own book. eg
'My internet name on free-minds is enquirer'....This has no contradictions, and is thus a verse from god... Yes or no? -
peace savage carrot. Very intellectual comment.
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Very intellectual comment.
Thank you. Someone had to do it.
'My internet name on free-minds is enquirer'....This has no contradictions, and is thus a verse from god... Yes or no?
Did you read the verse itself? You will find the answer you seek.
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peace thegod. Ok,if allah along with others can know what is in the wombs,what is the point of emhasizing allah knows what is in the wombs?
And if you yourself admit the verse could mean other things,this shows that the verse is not entirely clear,or that you can take any interpretation that fits in with the current facts...How then does this make the quran a stable reference point or criterion? Any christian can also re-interpret his bible to stop it contradicting,or to make it more valid to the current scientific facts. -
Peace enquirer,
peace Zenje. Ah,so i proved my point,you do make arbitrary divisions and harmful interpretations from your own ego,(on the basis of an internet dialogue)...Not from god. or is it?
I just quoted a passage of truth, since you don't believe in it, I'm not sure what your harmful interpretation was.If only half the energy was spent on serving god and being tolerant and open-minded,the world might be a much better place.
Actually I didn't use much energy at all, unless if that's what you meant. And I am serving the God, I'm glad it's not for you to judge though. wink If I'm not mistaken, you've spent more energy on the amount of posts in the past few days than I have in a month.How much energy does tolerance and "open-mindedness" take? ??
Is an open-mind your idol?
I notice when you guys run out of ideas you throw out your quranic misinterpretations
Aww, does that bother you? Here's some more verses from "1400 years ago"!-
And if Our clear revelations are recited to them, you see hatred in the faces of those who have rejected. They are nearly close to attacking those who are reciting to them Our revelations! Say ?Shall I inform you of what is worse than this? The Fire, which God has promised to those who have rejected. What a miserable destiny!?
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The believers are those whom, when God is mentioned, their hearts reverence; and when His revelations are recited to them, it increases their faith; and they put their trust in their Lord.
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And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
Translate and interpret that as you like.
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If I'm not mistaken, you've spent more energy on the amount of posts in the past few days than I have in a month.
Lol, I wonder what's the secret? Twix bars?
Is an open-mind your idol?
lol
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peace zenje. Your harmful interpretation comes from the fact you can quote a verse relating to disbelief when you perceive the person is outside your arbitrary definition of a muslim,dont use allah as an excuse to justify your so-called truth.
.Nothing that you have said really bothers me because i can see your comments are not very deep,and you want to subjugate your mind to a literal,dogmatic,narrow interpretation of the quran. You said your glad im not the judge of belief,didnt you judge me by quoting surah 109 to me?
I try not to follow any idols...,i try to follow god my friend. Whats wrong with an open-mind...What is the site called? ... Ps;very insightful comments savage carrot...Where have your quranic verses got to? -
enquirer wrote
Peace all. Magi makes a very good point. If verse 4;82 states that if the qurank was from other than allah there would be many contradictions in it.
Then this means any book without an obvious contradiction can be claimed to be from god...This gives divine claims to phonebooks,scientific journals,posters on free-minds( .),sports magazines,newspaper reports etc,etc...Not much of a special claim,or is it?... Also does it not give a chance for the person(by human logic.) to state the book is not all from allah?
I could put that claim in a very small pamphlet,verse or my own book. eg
'My internet name on free-minds is enquirer'....This has no contradictions, and is thus a verse from god... Yes or no?lolz!! it states that had the quran been from other than allah it would have contained much conflicts...and not the other way round! i believe this has been adressed on this forum as well so i guess u probably have read some comments on this very good point! D
peace thegod. Ok,if allah along with others can know what is in the wombs,what is the point of emhasizing allah knows what is in the wombs?
And if you yourself admit the verse could mean other things,this shows that the verse is not entirely clear,or that you can take any interpretation that fits in with the current facts...How then does this make the quran a stable reference point or criterion? Any christian can also re-interpret his bible to stop it contradicting,or to make it more valid to the current scientific facts.i would have liked to see u own up that it was a mistake...be it careless...to allege as words of god those which never were...would have set a trend between us to be more honest with rselves...still....never mind D
so have u changed the complaint from god only knowing to why god is emphasising that it knows the burden of the wombs? god also states that it knows what the hearts hide and what the tongues belie? any problems with that? -)
yes...it could mean other things without contradicting itself..like i can say it means god knows whether the womb bears a righteous person or an evil person and it will not be contradicitng itself as god is all-kowing...if christians or faithfuls of any other religion can reconcile their texts to themselves i have no problems with that D
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Peace thegod. Can you point out the mistake you said i made please?
How far will you go to prove that there are no inconsistencies? Do you have any criteria for what is a contradiction? The problem if you keep reconciling texts,is that you can change them any time you perceive a contradiction...is that honest? -
The problem if you keep reconciling texts,is that you can change them any time you perceive a contradiction...is that honest?
How has thegod changed the texts? You said ONLY God knows, the verse is apparently saying different. If you want a criteria, please start posting verses literally yourself before talking about contradictions, so you have one.
Below is an excellent site-
http//yaqb.org/
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peace savage carrot. My comment was a general one,not addressed specifically to thegod. Why do you insist on telling me what to do? My comments on the verses include different possible translations,and any you or others can come up with.If your entitled to an opinion on what a verse means,then so am i. I notice you have answered very little,and your not quoting many verses. Look to yourself before you start asking others to do things. D
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Getting testy are we? For one in any decent debate especially one about inconsistencies in the quran we go to the source text, comprende? Thus, while posting an inconsistency we post the original text, literal if you must obviously. Otherwise, when someone goes to the source and explains what it means you scream blue murder. Changing texts! Versions of interpretation! (Not that that has anything to do with inconsistency in the quran, but it's what you say).
My insistence is on a good substantial debate with evidence for all to see and if you recall, you were too lazy to post the verses yourself, so who posted them? Three guesses. So look to yourself, your comments are just not holding up.
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Don't forget the crux of the issue. Contradictions in the quran. Please, let's stick to them. Next thing we hear will be, God is an idol (wasn't there some poster who said something along those lines?)...no, your mind is an idol, hell whatever you know is an idol. Let's just talk about contradictions in a book which 'claims' to come from God okay? Not the phone/math book line of reasoning please.
Haha that was really funny sister lol lol
Enquirer, I'm preparing a long Quran comment as a reply to your first comment in this thread, will be back in a little while
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Peace savage carrot. Why should i get testy? Your intellectual input is quite low. My comments are not holding up to you,but i see very little refutation,just posturing. I have not seen much good substantial debate from you...Just defensiveness...And your right,i dont want to literally post every verse word for word,im sure there are other people who are more capable of doing that,and im sure some of them know which verses im referring too. If your not too lazy yourself why dont you post the verses?
Or are you all talk and no action? D -
enquirer wrote
Peace thegod. Can you point out the mistake you said i made please?yes...u said new technology can determine what is in the womb and called it an inconsistency with literal interpretations..the text of the quran does not reflect the inconsistency u claimed D
enquirer wrote
What about the new pictures we have on an ultrasound of babies in the womb? Can you see an inconsistency with the literal interpretations?enquirer wrote
How far will you go to prove that there are no inconsistencies? Do you have any criteria for what is a contradiction? The problem if you keep reconciling texts,is that you can change them any time you perceive a contradiction...is that honest?that would not be honest...but u have to determine inconsistencies and contradictions according to a standard other than ur logical self...ur intentions might be alright..but ur understanding as a standard would definitely be insufficient...especially if v really intend to determine the status of the text!
that said the verse does not claim god alone knows what is in the womb!
further even my interpretation does not 'reconcile' the text by means of chicanery....its perfectly valid and in no way contradicts the message of the quran elsewhere
personally much of what is said against text of religion a by followers of religion b i discard if the text can reconcile with itself without any twisting and distorting...and a and b can be any 2 religions on the face of this earth! -)
nice talking to u and others...as well as readin....do keep the criticism comin if u genuinely feel so...but i guess i will be leaving shortly! =;
####### peace -)
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You really are a character. Coming from you any output would be appreciated leaving aside intellect. If you don't agree with someone, you start giving their posts (and them by connection) thesauristic abuse. I did post the verses, pity you are still hanging on to your flimsy excuses... other people more capable. You got that right.