Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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Peace enquirer,
peace Zenje. Ah,so i proved my point,you do make arbitrary divisions and harmful interpretations from your own ego,(on the basis of an internet dialogue)...Not from god. or is it?
I just quoted a passage of truth, since you don't believe in it, I'm not sure what your harmful interpretation was.If only half the energy was spent on serving god and being tolerant and open-minded,the world might be a much better place.
Actually I didn't use much energy at all, unless if that's what you meant. And I am serving the God, I'm glad it's not for you to judge though. wink If I'm not mistaken, you've spent more energy on the amount of posts in the past few days than I have in a month.How much energy does tolerance and "open-mindedness" take? ??
Is an open-mind your idol?
I notice when you guys run out of ideas you throw out your quranic misinterpretations
Aww, does that bother you? Here's some more verses from "1400 years ago"!-
And if Our clear revelations are recited to them, you see hatred in the faces of those who have rejected. They are nearly close to attacking those who are reciting to them Our revelations! Say ?Shall I inform you of what is worse than this? The Fire, which God has promised to those who have rejected. What a miserable destiny!?
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The believers are those whom, when God is mentioned, their hearts reverence; and when His revelations are recited to them, it increases their faith; and they put their trust in their Lord.
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And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
Translate and interpret that as you like.
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If I'm not mistaken, you've spent more energy on the amount of posts in the past few days than I have in a month.
Lol, I wonder what's the secret? Twix bars?
Is an open-mind your idol?
lol
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peace zenje. Your harmful interpretation comes from the fact you can quote a verse relating to disbelief when you perceive the person is outside your arbitrary definition of a muslim,dont use allah as an excuse to justify your so-called truth.
.Nothing that you have said really bothers me because i can see your comments are not very deep,and you want to subjugate your mind to a literal,dogmatic,narrow interpretation of the quran. You said your glad im not the judge of belief,didnt you judge me by quoting surah 109 to me?
I try not to follow any idols...,i try to follow god my friend. Whats wrong with an open-mind...What is the site called? ... Ps;very insightful comments savage carrot...Where have your quranic verses got to? -
enquirer wrote
Peace all. Magi makes a very good point. If verse 4;82 states that if the qurank was from other than allah there would be many contradictions in it.
Then this means any book without an obvious contradiction can be claimed to be from god...This gives divine claims to phonebooks,scientific journals,posters on free-minds( .),sports magazines,newspaper reports etc,etc...Not much of a special claim,or is it?... Also does it not give a chance for the person(by human logic.) to state the book is not all from allah?
I could put that claim in a very small pamphlet,verse or my own book. eg
'My internet name on free-minds is enquirer'....This has no contradictions, and is thus a verse from god... Yes or no?lolz!! it states that had the quran been from other than allah it would have contained much conflicts...and not the other way round! i believe this has been adressed on this forum as well so i guess u probably have read some comments on this very good point! D
peace thegod. Ok,if allah along with others can know what is in the wombs,what is the point of emhasizing allah knows what is in the wombs?
And if you yourself admit the verse could mean other things,this shows that the verse is not entirely clear,or that you can take any interpretation that fits in with the current facts...How then does this make the quran a stable reference point or criterion? Any christian can also re-interpret his bible to stop it contradicting,or to make it more valid to the current scientific facts.i would have liked to see u own up that it was a mistake...be it careless...to allege as words of god those which never were...would have set a trend between us to be more honest with rselves...still....never mind D
so have u changed the complaint from god only knowing to why god is emphasising that it knows the burden of the wombs? god also states that it knows what the hearts hide and what the tongues belie? any problems with that? -)
yes...it could mean other things without contradicting itself..like i can say it means god knows whether the womb bears a righteous person or an evil person and it will not be contradicitng itself as god is all-kowing...if christians or faithfuls of any other religion can reconcile their texts to themselves i have no problems with that D
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Peace thegod. Can you point out the mistake you said i made please?
How far will you go to prove that there are no inconsistencies? Do you have any criteria for what is a contradiction? The problem if you keep reconciling texts,is that you can change them any time you perceive a contradiction...is that honest? -
The problem if you keep reconciling texts,is that you can change them any time you perceive a contradiction...is that honest?
How has thegod changed the texts? You said ONLY God knows, the verse is apparently saying different. If you want a criteria, please start posting verses literally yourself before talking about contradictions, so you have one.
Below is an excellent site-
http//yaqb.org/
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peace savage carrot. My comment was a general one,not addressed specifically to thegod. Why do you insist on telling me what to do? My comments on the verses include different possible translations,and any you or others can come up with.If your entitled to an opinion on what a verse means,then so am i. I notice you have answered very little,and your not quoting many verses. Look to yourself before you start asking others to do things. D
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Getting testy are we? For one in any decent debate especially one about inconsistencies in the quran we go to the source text, comprende? Thus, while posting an inconsistency we post the original text, literal if you must obviously. Otherwise, when someone goes to the source and explains what it means you scream blue murder. Changing texts! Versions of interpretation! (Not that that has anything to do with inconsistency in the quran, but it's what you say).
My insistence is on a good substantial debate with evidence for all to see and if you recall, you were too lazy to post the verses yourself, so who posted them? Three guesses. So look to yourself, your comments are just not holding up.
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Don't forget the crux of the issue. Contradictions in the quran. Please, let's stick to them. Next thing we hear will be, God is an idol (wasn't there some poster who said something along those lines?)...no, your mind is an idol, hell whatever you know is an idol. Let's just talk about contradictions in a book which 'claims' to come from God okay? Not the phone/math book line of reasoning please.
Haha that was really funny sister lol lol
Enquirer, I'm preparing a long Quran comment as a reply to your first comment in this thread, will be back in a little while
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Peace savage carrot. Why should i get testy? Your intellectual input is quite low. My comments are not holding up to you,but i see very little refutation,just posturing. I have not seen much good substantial debate from you...Just defensiveness...And your right,i dont want to literally post every verse word for word,im sure there are other people who are more capable of doing that,and im sure some of them know which verses im referring too. If your not too lazy yourself why dont you post the verses?
Or are you all talk and no action? D -
enquirer wrote
Peace thegod. Can you point out the mistake you said i made please?yes...u said new technology can determine what is in the womb and called it an inconsistency with literal interpretations..the text of the quran does not reflect the inconsistency u claimed D
enquirer wrote
What about the new pictures we have on an ultrasound of babies in the womb? Can you see an inconsistency with the literal interpretations?enquirer wrote
How far will you go to prove that there are no inconsistencies? Do you have any criteria for what is a contradiction? The problem if you keep reconciling texts,is that you can change them any time you perceive a contradiction...is that honest?that would not be honest...but u have to determine inconsistencies and contradictions according to a standard other than ur logical self...ur intentions might be alright..but ur understanding as a standard would definitely be insufficient...especially if v really intend to determine the status of the text!
that said the verse does not claim god alone knows what is in the womb!
further even my interpretation does not 'reconcile' the text by means of chicanery....its perfectly valid and in no way contradicts the message of the quran elsewhere
personally much of what is said against text of religion a by followers of religion b i discard if the text can reconcile with itself without any twisting and distorting...and a and b can be any 2 religions on the face of this earth! -)
nice talking to u and others...as well as readin....do keep the criticism comin if u genuinely feel so...but i guess i will be leaving shortly! =;
####### peace -)
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You really are a character. Coming from you any output would be appreciated leaving aside intellect. If you don't agree with someone, you start giving their posts (and them by connection) thesauristic abuse. I did post the verses, pity you are still hanging on to your flimsy excuses... other people more capable. You got that right.
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Peace thegod. Nice talking to you as well. Please dont take offense at my comments.
I did also state that if god is not the only one to know whats in the wombs,then what is the point of the verse mentioning or emphasising it? Also i said some interpret it to mean only god knows whats in the wombs,i was not saying that i necessarily agree with that interpretation...
If our goal is to be rational,open-minded,tolerant and honest then i see no problem in this dialogue. take it easy. -
peace savage carrot. Are you going to say something of logic or benefit please? You need to control your emotional responses. And how about some refutations of the contradictions? D
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peace all,
14 4. We sent not a messenger except (to teach) IN THE LANGUAGE OF HIS (OWN) PEOPLE, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.
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For me, I have been commanded to serve the LORD OF THIS CITY, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will,-
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By the Book that makes things clear
433.We have made it QUR?AN IN ARABIC, that YE MAY BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND (and learn wisdom).
12 2. We have sent it down as an ARABIC QUR'AN, in order THAT YE MAY learn wisdom.
42 7. And thus have We revealed to you AN ARABIC QURAN, that you may WARN the MOTHER CITY and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire.
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Thus have We sent this down - AN ARABIC QUR'AN - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).
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Had We sent this AS A QUR'AN (IN THE LANGUAGE) OTHER THAN ARABIC, THEY WOULD HAVE SAID "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes) They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
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Had We revealed it to any of THE NON-ARABS,
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And had he recited it to them, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BELIEVED IN IT.
the THEM, YE or THEY in the above verses are the native arabs who lived at that time and not us, according to verses 26198/199 if God had send a non arabic messenger, the arabs would have never believed in it??? so its a little confusing why it is expected from non arabs to believe in an arabic book, from a to z without even raising an eyebro? a book revealed 1400 years ago, which is not explained to us by the prophet himself in our language, but by men who translate it and interpret it and then want us to believe that every word is from God himself ? shouldnt we have the same rights similiar to those of the ancient arabs? so please take it easy on those who are a bit skeptical and keep in mind the verses 26198/199.
peace.
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Peace everyone!
Thank you enquirer for your comments -)
However I realized one thing, and I want to share it, by commenting the quote below.
Next thing we hear will be, God is an idol (wasn't there some poster who said something along those lines?)...no, your mind is an idol, hell whatever you know is an idol.
Dear Savage_carrot,
I understand your concern, but you have made me realize one thing.By 'you' in the coming sentences, I'm not referring to a spefic person. I just like to use the word -)
If by 'idol' we mean something or someone, that we obey or trust, without question. Then we cannot escape idolazation. There are assumptions that we blindly believe, and these assumptions become our idols. We trust them, believe them and act upon them. Just like any other idol-worshipper does for his idol. Today, most people would believe most professionals blindly. We blindly believe doctors; why do you take vaccinations? Have you verified their contents? Most people can't or won't; so the they don't. And what about architects? How do you know that your house is safe to reside in? What makes you think that it wont implode and kill you? Assumptions, based on thoughts from a third party.
If you think about it, you're putting your life on the line, trusting the architect's, doctor's etc. have you ever thought about it?
Doesn't this make you an idol-worshipper? You do the fit the description Following someone blindly.My point should be clear We cannot escape idolazation; if by 'idol' we mean something or someone, that we obey or trust, without question.
Why am I preaching about it this? Bcause it makes (should make) you realize that each of us has a source we confide in. Some have scriptures, some have professionals, scholars, and some their own mind. And since no person knows the absolute truth, everyone is equally close to it(truth). That should be hard to swallow, but think it over.
Now Enquirer, my message to you is that while you're criticizing peoples trust in their sources, you are also criticizing the very same trust you have in yourself. Did you notice?
For you, you have the same trust in your mind, that the ones you criticize have for their sources. Do you see? Both of you seek guidance. There is no difference.
You may argue that the mind is more trustworthy, and you'll be refuted in a flash by valid arguments based on how easily the brain can be fooled.
The other side can argue that the scripture is more trustworthy since it's from god, and they'll get refuted by equally valid arguments based on that the quran has come to us from a place 1400 years back by a man claiming to be a prophet.Each of the arguments make clear that both options are equally risky and uncertain.
Based on this I believe that it's pointless to criticize others faith or choice in the above alternatives. What we chose will be a personal choice. The first equally logic as the second. What should be criticized however, is whether your belief in one option, makes you blind for the other. That is to be criticized. It is now that we are really being idol-worshippers. When we listen to one source, and ignore all other sources without consideration.
My, that was a lot of text just for one simple point. I apologize if it seems irrelevant or unnecessary.
Nadeem.
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Nothing that you have said really bothers me because i can see your comments are not very deep,and you want to subjugate your mind to a literal,dogmatic,narrow interpretation of the quran.
Again, I just quoted a passage, and again you showed exactly what you see and what you are - dogmatic and narrow. Tsk tsk. Don't take it personally enquirer, if you interpret those verses differently, then all should be well, yes? No need to get so emotional, open-minded sir.You said your glad im not the judge of belief,didnt you judge me by quoting surah 109 to me?
Quoting a surah is judgmental? Weren't you the one who started the thread with "you guys", "you people"?... who's judging who?It's funny, a self proclaimed "open-minded", "tolerant" person who doesn't act like one... deeds are better than all the energy you put in the posts! Take it easy
Peace be with you
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enquirer wrote
Peace thegod. Nice talking to you as well. Please dont take offense at my comments.naah!
enquirer wrote
I did also state that if god is not the only one to know whats in the wombs,then what is the point of the verse mentioning or emphasising it?i already addressed that in the same post which u referred to! if u do not get that i ll try to comment a bit further! -S
enquirer wrote
Also i said some interpret it to mean only god knows whats in the wombs,i was not saying that i necessarily agree with that interpretation...v were talking about contradictions in quran and not what some or sundry interpret it as...if u do not agree with the particluar translation then i guess u should not have posted that as a contradiction in quran!
enquirer wrote
If our goal is to be rational,open-minded,tolerant and honest then i see no problem in this dialogue. take it easy.right on...so wen u plannin to be all that??.......lolz....jus kiddin...dunn mind...D
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Peace nadeem,
Dear Savage_carrot,
I understand your concern, but you have made me realize one thing. If by 'idol' we mean something or someone, that we obey or trust, without question. Then we cannot escape idolazation. There are assumptions that we blindly believe, and these assumptions become our idols. We trust them, believe them and act upon them. Just like any other idol-worshipper does for his idol. Today, most people would believe most professionals blindly. We blindly believe doctors; why do you take vaccinations? Have you verified their contents? Most people can't or won't; so the they don't. And what about architects? How do you know that your house is safe to reside in? What makes you think that it wont implode and kill you? Assumptions, based on thoughts from a third party.Yes, it is a problem for some people especially when they will not take the effort to understand and research what is going on around them. Sometimes the fault extends both ways, when a person is deliberately deceiving another and the other believes it without question. Recently a relative of mine had her 2 year old undergo two operations to insert a tube in her lung. The circumstances were deplorable. This person never asked or informed herself as to the procedures involved in this, never read the medical literature. We were all up in arms about it. Scott Peck had a theory that all 'evil' stems from laziness. I might not believe in all he says but a great deal of harm is inflicted to others and to themselves by their laziness/unwillingness to put in effort.
If you think about it, you're putting your life on the line, trusting the architect's, doctor's etc. have you ever thought about it?
Doesn't this make you an idol-worshipper? You do the fit the description Following someone blindly.Indeed, sometimes however based on your knowledge and the limits imposed on you by them (what you can conceivably acquire), there is no other way. Unless one were to research everything to the nth degree and thus be a master of all trades. You do see how impossible that is? One does what they can to the best of their ability. It does not make one an idol worshipper if they do that? That is just making it too extreme a view especially when you can know your limitations and what you can acquire realistically?
My point should be clear We cannot escape idolazation; if by 'idol' we mean something or someone, that we obey or trust, without question.
Most of us do not escape idolization because of our laziness to acquire knowledge which has limitations. Beyond that, trusting God is not idolization, even if we cannot verify all His concepts completely. We can try to a limited degree and succeed maybe to our own satisfaction and verification criteria. There is a level of trust involved, that is our iman/trust/faith. What God is asking us to do imo is to put in that effort into acquiring knowledge and this cannot be taken to an extreme obviously. This applies to everything.
Why am I preaching about it this? Bcause it makes (should make) you realize that each of us has a source we confide in. Some have scriptures, some have professionals, scholars, and some their own mind. And since no person knows the absolute truth, everyone is equally close to it(truth). That should be hard to swallow, but think it over.
I believe everyone is capable of being equally close to the truth. That does not mean in reality they are equally close. Everyone makes their own judgements regarding what they consider truth even if the truth is universal and/or a particular way (e.g. there can only be one God, right morals etc). In the end we will find out how close we really were. Unless of course one does not believe in the final judgement that is nigh
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Peace 'enquirer'
I just went through this entire thread and am glad to read some great stuff from your end, begging for sincere answers rather than twists and twinky doodles.
peace all. What about the quran saying that allah doesnt change his ways or laws,(or sunnat.) and then jesus being born without a father,a stick turning into a snake,the splitting of the sea into two firm mountains,jesus speaking as a baby,fire not burning abraham etc...
All creatures are supposed to do sujood to allah alone,and yet allah asked the angels to do sujood to adam?
Allah never commanding indecency,but then abraham being asked to sacrifice an innocent son? If you take these literally you make the book contradictory and inconsistent... Please explain these verses...Am surprised that your post above carrying much grounds to your topic seems to have tossed out, unnoticed. Anyhow, here's one for the road and several more to come as we travel along
415
Khalifa
Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
Yusuf Ali
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
Pickthal
As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).- Who knows, in this case, the adulteresses may live longer than others until old age catches them in confinement. But hang on, lets see what happens to them next.
- Four witnesses needed for lewdness of adulteress. What happens when witnesses fall short of four (3 or 2 or 1)?
- What is the punishment for men (adulterer) in this case? Perhaps the answer is given elsewhere in a twisted fashion (see below).
242
Khalifa
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.
Yusuf Ali
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Pickthal
The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.- Isn?t the punishment for adulteresses (women) in 415 to confine them at homes until death do them away OR is it 100 lashes as per 242?
- Giving 100 lashes as per 242 may very likely not save their lives of either of them, but saves the adulteress?s life from getting beaten up in public as per 415?
- The demonstration of punishment prescribed in 242 will surely inflict bodily injury, mental deprivation and societal/family trauma but rather hushed out in 415, Why?
- How many witnesses are needed on this case?
425
Khalifa
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Yusuf Ali
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Pickthal
And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.- Now the adulteress?s punishment is halved because she is married. Okayyy. But halved as per 415 or 242 or what?
- What about the married adulterer?s punishement?
- How many witnesses are needed to this case?
3330
Khalifa
O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits a gross sin, the retribution will be doubled for her. This is easy for GOD to do.
Yusuf Ali
O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for God.
Pickthal
O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.This is a tough one.
- In this case the punishment for adulteress is doubled, but by which standards/rule. Is it doubled as per 415 or 242 or 425?
- Who and how many witnesses shall we bring to this scenario, knowing that a prophet?s wife is being exposed of adultery?
- Imagine what painful emotions and disgrace this would bring to the community, prophet?s own family members and followers and to top it up, his preachings?
- Would the punishment be same (whatever that is) for prophet?s divorcees?
Not only are these verses in total contradiction, but inconsistent and incoherent.
Finally, what?s the prescription for gays and lisbians retribution? Are there any standards inherited on them? Are any standards described above valid, witnessed and declared/honored today, other than a few shreds of jahiliah seen once in a blue moon, withering away.