salvation while refusing prophethood of Mohammed possible?
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Peace Kestrel,
What's with the name-calling. ???
How about providing ayat to support your position so we may all learn?
Here are some that support what Kyle has stated
4122 As for those who believe and do good work, We will admit them gardens with rivers flowing beneath, eternally they will abide therein. God's promise is truth; and who is more truthful in saying than God?
569 "Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."
1630-31 And it was said to those who were righteous "What has your Lord sent down?" They said "All goodness." For those who have done good in this world there is good, and the Hereafter is even better. Excellent indeed is the home of the righteous. The gardens of Eden, which they will enter, with rivers flowing beneath, in it they will have what they wish. It is such that God rewards the righteous.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Hi tay,
You are the guy claiming "angels are good emotions", arent you?
D ;D D ;D D ;D
then how do you explain the following verse
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
How can our good emotions submit to Adam? ;D ;D
Here are some that support what Kyle has stated
4122 As for those who believe and do good work, We will admit them gardens with rivers flowing beneath, eternally they will abide therein. God's promise is truth; and who is more truthful in saying than God?
569 "Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."
1630-31 And it was said to those who were righteous "What has your Lord sent down?" They said "All goodness." For those who have done good in this world there is good, and the Hereafter is even better. Excellent indeed is the home of the righteous. The gardens of Eden, which they will enter, with rivers flowing beneath, in it they will have what they wish. It is such that God rewards the righteous.
Do you really think these verses support Kyle.You are incredible bro. ;D ;D ;D.Dont you have any Quranic knowledge ?
To cut short, I give you a single verse.Think on it,okay.
2177 Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.
Btw,you can call me edip.
peace
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Peace Edip,
You are the guy claiming "angels are good emotions", arent you?
I'm glad you got a kick out of that, although, that does not encompass my entire understanding.
then how do you explain the following verse
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
How can our good emotions submit to Adam?
It's pretty simple, actually. When a person experiences good, what follows is a good emotion.
Now your turn...
what is an angel and how does it submit to Adam?
Do you really think these verses support Kyle.You are incredible bro. .Dont you have any Quranic knowledge ?
To cut short, I give you a single verse.Think on it,okay.
How about just addressing the ayat I posted Mr. Quranic Knowledge??
Peace,
Tay -
salam friend,
what is an angel and how does it submit to Adam?
Tay, sorry but this is a silly question.
We humans are to believe in the existence of angels and that they submitted to Adam as Quran clearly tells us these.However we can never know the nature of angels or what they are made of or how they submitted to Adam as angels are beings that we cant perceive or measure or on which we can perform controllled lab experiments or whatever.They dont belong to our world.Therefore we are not able to know or to verify them.We can only believe in them as Quran says they exist.
Your understanding from verse 1736 is completely wrong.
How about just addressing the ayat I posted Mr. Quranic Knowledge??
Well let's have a look at verse 569
569 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
It seems that acc. to the verse, a christian who believes in trinity and lead a righteous life will attain salvation.This is also what Kyle wants to imply.
Let's take another verse from Quran
573 Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity. There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this, those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.
It is obvious that acc. to verse 573 our christian friend is a hell creature, isn't he?
Do the verses contradict?
Or is it misleading when you choose and interpret a single verse (or a few verses) from Quran?
peace
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Salam ekarabekir, all,
Your understanding is correct from the clear verses. No salvation without believing in this entire Quran and thus the messenger who conveyed its message, that is, the prophet Mohamed.
That is why it is part of shadah to give the witness that Muhammad is prophet of Allah,,,
But I think free-minds dont accept this give fake reason of idolizing the prophet. When we clearly say that Muhammd is Rasool (Prophet) or Allah then it means accepting him as prophet, it does not mean that aeccepting him as God ( However, a Moron can say some other interpretation).Regards.
ViratualEye -
tay wrote
It's pretty simple, actually. When a person experiences good, what follows is a good emotion.dunn mind but i dont see how that answers the question which was asked? -/
myr wrote
I think Brother you are confusing the issue. Prophethood is not attesting in the shahada that Mohamed is rassoul, if you do that and you want to be in harmony with what we are commanded to believe as truth in Quran, that is, we can NOT distinguish among any messengers, you will have to also attest that Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, and all the messengers we were told and we were NOT told, are also messenger of God. Beside that, it is very important to understand that the shahada format well spread among the meanstream is NOT in the Quran and even ironically, there is a verse that mentions the hypocrites (munafikeen) who came to the prophet to attest that he was a rassoul while God the All-Mighty knows he was a rassoul. So we have to be very carefull to NOT utter things that may be in conflict with Quran and in particular how ALL the messengers should be considered. Prophethood is a mission given to a man of character chosen by the All-Mighty and for that particular choice, denying that man a mission is to say he is not a messenger, however shahada is for God and not the messengers based on my understanding of the Quran. And God the All-Mighty knows best.agreed that the 'shahada' of faith is la ilaha illallah...however to believe in the prophethood of muhammad...of jesus...of moses...in all the messengers and prophets..not allowing some and rejecting others...to believe in the angels...the last day...the books...and whatever that the quran has commanded to believe in is part of faith ! so though it is not the elementary part in the sense that 'la ilaha illallah' is that which has been the message of all prophets...it is no wrong to attest to prophethood of the messengers as attested to by the quran! as a muslim u do not say u believe in quran but u do not believe in muhammad or jesus or abraham...it is a part of faith! as for hypocrites attesting to muhammad being the messenger of god is it not evident that they were insincere? they thought by simply openly claiming to have believed in muhammad's prophethood their evil would remain concealed...but god doeth remind them that it is very well informed of that which they proclaim and their true state hypocrites! -)
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Peace Kestrel,
Tay, sorry but this is a silly question.
Translation I have no answer, even though I mock other people's understandings with nothing to offer as an alternative.
Your understanding from verse 1736 is completely wrong.
Another frutiless comment. Please teach us!
569 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
It seems that acc. to the verse, a christian who believes in trinity and lead a righteous life will attain salvation.This is also what Kyle wants to imply.
Where does the ayah mention anything about 'trinity'? And where did you get the information that this is what Kyle implied?
I believe your drawing strawmen and evading the directness of Al-Qur'an to save face. Inshallah I'm wrong.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace thegod,
I stated
"It's pretty simple, actually. When a person experiences good, what follows is a good emotion."And you replied
dunn mind but i dont see how that answers the question which was asked? -/
The question was how do good emotions submit to mankind. The submission is metaphorical. When someone gives from the heart, for example, what follows is a feeling of serene peace. The feeling doesn't come until the action is taken. Thus, the feeling is in submission to the person experiencing the feeling. "All except Iblis". Iblis refused to submit, therefore, Iblis is the catalyst for negative energy, ie anger, jealousy, hatred, etc.
When you feel at peace with yourself, then you know you did the right thing. The feeling is a reminder.
And the Qur'an tells us that the angels will "speak" to us when we remain on God's path
4130 But, behold, as for those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and then remain steadfastly upright ? upon them descend angels, saying, "Fear not, and grieve not, but hear good news of the Paradise that you are promised.
I've posted this ayah all over the forum, yet not one person has come forward saying they've heard these angels speaking. So what is this ayah talking about, if not something instilled within?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Kestrel,
Tay, sorry but this is a silly question.
Translation I have no answer, even though I mock other people's understandings with nothing to offer as an alternative.
Your understanding from verse 1736 is completely wrong.
Another frutiless comment. Please teach us!
569 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
It seems that acc. to the verse, a christian who believes in trinity and lead a righteous life will attain salvation.This is also what Kyle wants to imply.
Where does the ayah mention anything about 'trinity'? And where did you get the information that this is what Kyle implied?
I believe your drawing strawmen and evading the directness of Al-Qur'an to save face. Inshallah I'm wrong.
May peace be upon you,
TayHi Tay
Friend, I dont have so much time to explain you everything in detail.Please re-read previous messages in the thread and try to understand by yourself within the context.If you cant or if you dont, then take it easy.t's all fine by me )
As for 1736, ok I m giving an example so that you can also understand
Tay says angels are good emotions.
1736 says And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Kestrel says I cant believe what Tay says because I have no knowledge of angels.I cant hear them I cant see them or I cant even imagine them, so how can I verify that they are emotions.
Tay saysthen dont believe in them as you should believe only what is verifiable, per 1736.
Kestrel says I dont need to verify because Quran tells they exist.Things told in verses dont need verifying at all.As a matter of fact I must reject your claim acc.to verse 1736 because I can never verify angels are good emotions.
I hope the example helps
peace
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Peace Kestrel,
I appreciate your tone.
I cant believe what Tay says because I have no knowledge of angels.I cant hear them I cant see them or I cant even imagine them, so how can I verify that they are emotions.
First off, let me say that I, in no way, wish to force my understanding on anyone. The reason we are at this point in our dialogue is because you seemed to think my understanding was laughable.
Now, regarding your response, it doesn't hold water. Emotions are unseen. But can you deny that emotions exist? No. That's the bottom line. So if angels are emotions, then we can verify their existence every time we experience the emotion.
Things told in verses dont need verifying at all.
This speaks volumes. If nothing in the Qur'an needs verifying, then how do you know it is from God? Please show me the ayah that says we are to accept this info blindly.
As a matter of fact I must reject your claim acc.to verse 1736 because I can never verify angels are good emotions.
That is a choice, not a fact. Ask yourself this, if we're not meant to know what the angels are or how they operate, then why would Allah spend so much time mentioning them? Where is the guidance in hearing about an entity that can never be experienced or understood?
If your intentions are sincere, which I have no reason to doubt, then kindly explain these ayat
4130 But, behold, as for those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and then remain steadfastly upright ? upon them descend angels, saying, "Fear not, and grieve not, but hear good news of the Paradise that you are promised.
812 God inspired the Angels "I am with you so keep firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have rejected; so strike above the necks, and strike from them every one standing."
Peace,
Tay -
tay wrote
The question was how do good emotions submit to mankind.yes! i wonder if u could spare some time to explain emotions...thoughts...good emotions and bad emotions...good thoughts and bad thoughts...but its okay if u cant! -)
tay wrote
The submission is metaphorical.ahan!
tay wrote
When someone gives from the heart, for example, what follows is a feeling of serene peace. The feeling doesn't come until the action is taken.gives what? i mean how much giving is giving enough to experience that serenity?
tay wrote
Thus, the feeling is in submission to the person experiencing the feeling.i am sorry...i m really kinda dumb! -S which feeling therein is human and which feeling is emotion? when god said to the malaikatu to prostrate unto adam....were these emotions outside adam? were they a part of him? did they have free will to do as they determine? what is the meaning of a good emotion and a bad emotion submitting to adam? i mean by their submission (as u put it) to me does it mean i can call them as and when i want?
tay wrote
"All except Iblis". Iblis refused to submit, therefore, Iblis is the catalyst for negative energy, ie anger, jealousy, hatred, etc.'malaika' is plural so good emotions...plural...what is iblis...is it also a good emotion? if it is a bad emotion then since quran has adressed it as singular what is this singular bad emotion?
tay wrote
When you feel at peace with yourself, then you know you did the right thing. The feeling is a reminder.like?? i mean some people get a lot of peace by exacting revenge...in being spiteful and i am pretty much serious here...i have known such people...atleast at that time they are very much at peace....so in that case??
tay wrote
And the Qur'an tells us that the angels will "speak" to us when we remain on God's path4130 But, behold, as for those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and then remain steadfastly upright upon them descend angels, saying, "Fear not, and grieve not, but hear good news of the Paradise that you are promised.
I've posted this ayah all over the forum, yet not one person has come forward saying they've heard these angels speaking. So what is this ayah talking about, if not something instilled within?
- And those who disbelieve will say Our Lord! Show us those who beguiled us of the jinn and humankind. We will place them underneath our feet that they may be among the nethermost.
####### yes i have wondered about 41 30 myself...but neither have i seen any of who disbelieve say that..4129..have u? however...the quran does speak of people who recieved tidings from angels...but perhaps u dont believe the quran unless u can verify angels till u see them with ur eyes..or in the very least someone tells u "yes i saw 1"...but i guess u would still not believe..u would want to see with ur own eyes...i am not being judgemental...i am pretty cynical about god itself..but if and when i finally kick it out i dont want to have any reasonings to oppose my action!
coming back to 4130 i do think it is talking either about either death or a specific event...refer to 21104!
17 40 What! has then your Lord preferred to give you sons, and (for Himself) taken daughters from among the angels? Most surely you utter a grievous saying.
does that mean god is talking about daughters from good emotions?
17 95 Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger."
it means good thoughts settled in earth...walking about...and a good thought being a messenger to other good thoughts?
######### peace -)
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Peace thegod,
Before we get heavy, please note that my understandings are very far from complete and constantly under refinement, and thus any and all questions and comments can only help the understandings grow and become more refined.
You asked
i wonder if u could spare some time to explain emotions...thoughts...good emotions and bad emotions...good thoughts and bad thoughts
Let's have another look at what is said about angels
3125 Indeed, if you are patient and are righteous and they come and attack you, He will supply you with five thousand of the Angels battle trained.
Could it be that angels would actually descend upon the battlefield sporting plate mail armor and swords ready to fight?
No.
3126 And God did not give this except as good news to you, and so that your hearts may be assured with it. Victory is only from God, the Noble, the Wise.
So the angels are not entities ready to fight at a moment's notice, but they are probably best described as the emotion of determination/conviction.
Each good emotion, I would venture to say, is it's own /species/ of angel. They submit to the will of man. If man wills to act righteously, then the angels are obligated to follow by giving man the experience of their essence.
Conversely, Iblis' sole purpose is to catalyze the negative emotion. All negative emotions stem from one place, ego. This is why if one submits his/her will to Allah, via letting go of the ego, Iblis becomes irrelevant
1542 1542 ?Verily, you shall have no power over My servants, except those who put themselves in error and follow you.?
gives what? i mean how much giving is giving enough to experience that serenity?
It's not quantity, but quality. When you give from the heart, the serenity will follow.
which feeling therein is human and which feeling is emotion?
They are one and the same.
when god said to the malaikatu to prostrate unto adam....were these emotions outside adam?
It' difficult to describe this via physical descriptions. You must remember that our physical bodies are complete illusions. There really is no such thing as being outside of something. All that we can "see" is filtered through a sort of virtual reality, but the true essence of all matter is merely vibration of electricity. There is no matter.
by their submission (as u put it) to me does it mean i can call them as and when i want?
Of course. If you want to experience serenity, give. If you want to experience compassion, observe with your heart. The more you act in accordance with Allah, the more you will surround yourself with the malaikat. Beautiful, isn't it?
'malaika' is plural so good emotions...plural...what is iblis...is it also a good emotion? if it is a bad emotion then since quran has adressed it as singular what is this singular bad emotion?
Iblis is ego/arrogance/selfish desire
712 He said "What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?" He said "I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!"It is my understanding that Iblis' "birth", if you will, coincides with the birth of man. Iblis is the consequence of freewill, a domain of darkness that only manifests when the lights are turned off.
some people get a lot of peace by exacting revenge...in being spiteful and i am pretty much serious here...i have known such people...atleast at that time they are very much at peace....so in that case??
Disillusionment. There is no possibility of feeling peace while acting out of accordance with God. Revenge is a fire that feeds itself. People mistake the feeling of power as a feeling of peace. They are not the same.
yes i have wondered about 41 30 myself...but neither have i seen any of who disbelieve say that..4129..have u?
No, that's why a deeper meaning must be looked into.
however...the quran does speak of people who recieved tidings from angels...but perhaps u dont believe the quran unless u can verify angels till u see them with ur eyes..or in the very least someone tells u "yes i saw 1"...but i guess u would still not believe
We're talking about 2 different things here. People who receive tidings from angels receive them from within. If someone told me they saw an angel, I would be very curious about the details. I don't have to see the angel, it just has to fit the understanding provided by God.
i am not being judgemental...i am pretty cynical about god itself..but if and when i finally kick it out i dont want to have any reasonings to oppose my action!
Cynicism starts you off in a negative base. It would be better to start off blank and leave yourself open to all possibilities. The Qur'an asks us again and again to look into the universe to see the signs of God. You will see no signs of angels flying around or perched on trees, or the devil and his legion of demons lurking in the shadows. What you will see is an overwhelming energy called "cause and effect". This is the basis of my understanding, and I believe it is well reinforced by the guidance of God.
17 40 What! has then your Lord preferred to give you sons, and (for Himself) taken daughters from among the angels? Most surely you utter a grievous saying.
does that mean god is talking about daughters from good emotions?
I don't believe that all angels are emotions. I believe that all emotions are /species/ of angel. Angels, as it seems to me, covers a wider range of universal energy than simply emotions. But that's another topic altogether. The problems in understanding these verses usually manifest when we take the text literally.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay. Excellent analysis of 'angels' and emotions. )
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Peace Tay. Excellent analysis of 'angels' and emotions.
Excellent? Please somebody explain the following verse according to the lobic of Tay
069.017
069.017 And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.Al-Qur'an, 069.017 (Al-Haaqqa )
Sincerely,
VirtualEye -
Peace virtualeye. Possible interpretation; Your emotions (multiple,good ones.) will be supporting you (in your truth,or reality.) that day. (time period.)
Please dont get into too much literalism... Is it the meaning you want?...or a word for word literal,linguistic,unintelligible translation? -
Peace virtualeye. Possible interpretation; Your emotions (multiple,good ones.) will be supporting you (in your truth,or reality.) that day. (time period.)
Please dont get into too much literalism... Is it the meaning you want?...or a word for word literal,linguistic,unintelligible translation?Is your comment a typo? or you are really that stupid?
Is it essential to totally change the meaning of the verse which I refer?
When I give reference of verse which has more metaphorical meaning then you will take that literally.
The only motive is that somehow you break and twist the verse and make its spagetti and then say "look it means this and not that"Even a blind can see what does this verse is refering to. Maybe the blind from heart cant see. They need justificaction.
VirtualEye.
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Peace,
Malik-a mean literaly; the ones (given) authority/control, and is not a titel for one thing only, as the transaltion of angel is wrong, as this a titel with an already fixed concept of the meaning, while the meaning ; the ones given control/power, gives a wider and logical insight on a lot of verses; just like jinns, means being not seen, as jahim means barriere, as salaat means contact. Kaaba means basis.The way to interpretate is depended on the context of the verse.
As malik-a don't only refer to emotions, but also to powers in the creation as lighting, kinds of energy, laws of nature, and so on. It are things inside the creation that guide it, are part of it and so on. These serve us and protect us, as the ozon-layer protect you and so on. Iblis-sheitan, your ego, belongs also as one who has power, that didn't submit to God, as God made it to rebel, to learn us the responsibility of conciousness.
Peace
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As malik-a don't only refer to emotions, but also to powers in the creation as lighting, kinds of energy, laws of nature, and so on. It are things inside the creation that guide it, are part of it and so on. These serve us and protect us, as the ozon-layer protect you and so on. Iblis-sheitan, your ego, belongs also as one who has power, that didn't submit to God, as God made it to rebel, to learn us the responsibility of conciousness.
Salam all
Shame on you guys
You are producing such non-sense that angels are ozon-layer etc while the rest of the world are developing nano-technologies etc.That's why we muslims couldn't make any progress.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
peace
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Peace,
For a part your right, but this is my best understanding of what God refers to in the Quran. And 'the ones in control/power' is the literal translation of the word malik-a, to get a clearer picture of how it is used inside the Quran, as it doesn't refer to one kind of 'being', as angels are not the correct translation of the word, as these are mythological creatures from the Egyptians.
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tay wrote
Before we get heavy, please note that my understandings are very far from complete and constantly under refinement,noted without ur saying.......D...jus kiddin....my understandin is the worst i have known and ever will be known to me (
tay wrote
and thus any and all questions and comments can only help the understandings grow and become more refined.yes...and treat mine the same way -)
tay wrote
You askedQuote
i wonder if u could spare some time to explain emotions...thoughts...good emotions and bad emotions...good thoughts and bad thoughtsLet's have another look at what is said about angels
3125 Indeed, if you are patient and are righteous and they come and attack you, He will supply you with five thousand of the Angels battle trained.
Could it be that angels would actually descend upon the battlefield sporting plate mail armor and swords ready to fight?
No.
3126 And God did not give this except as good news to you, and so that your hearts may be assured with it. Victory is only from God, the Noble, the Wise.
So the angels are not entities ready to fight at a moment's notice, but they are probably best described as the emotion of determination/conviction.
Each good emotion, I would venture to say, is it's own /species/ of angel. They submit to the will of man. If man wills to act righteously, then the angels are obligated to follow by giving man the experience of their essence.
Conversely, Iblis' sole purpose is to catalyze the negative emotion. All negative emotions stem from one place, ego. This is why if one submits his/her will to Allah, via letting go of the ego, Iblis becomes irrelevant
1542 1542 Verily, you shall have no power over My servants, except those who put themselves in error and follow you.
Quote
gives what? i mean how much giving is giving enough to experience that serenity?It's not quantity, but quality. When you give from the heart, the serenity will follow.
Quote
which feeling therein is human and which feeling is emotion?They are one and the same.
Quote
when god said to the malaikatu to prostrate unto adam....were these emotions outside adam?It' difficult to describe this via physical descriptions. You must remember that our physical bodies are complete illusions. There really is no such thing as being outside of something. All that we can "see" is filtered through a sort of virtual reality, but the true essence of all matter is merely vibration of electricity. There is no matter.
Quote
by their submission (as u put it) to me does it mean i can call them as and when i want?Of course. If you want to experience serenity, give. If you want to experience compassion, observe with your heart. The more you act in accordance with Allah, the more you will surround yourself with the malaikat. Beautiful, isn't it?
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'malaika' is plural so good emotions...plural...what is iblis...is it also a good emotion? if it is a bad emotion then since quran has adressed it as singular what is this singular bad emotion?Iblis is ego/arrogance/selfish desire
712 He said "What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?" He said "I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!"It is my understanding that Iblis' "birth", if you will, coincides with the birth of man. Iblis is the consequence of freewill, a domain of darkness that only manifests when the lights are turned off.
Quote
some people get a lot of peace by exacting revenge...in being spiteful and i am pretty much serious here...i have known such people...atleast at that time they are very much at peace....so in that case??Disillusionment. There is no possibility of feeling peace while acting out of accordance with God. Revenge is a fire that feeds itself.
People mistake the feeling of power as a feeling of peace. They are not the same.
if u do not mind is it okay if i keep it for later time and get down first to that which u asked about 4130...if u do mind its okay....i will get back to this...the reason i say is that i feel v might do well to agree or disagree on a specific thing..if possible...before going on to the next so that v can have as common understanding as possible or in the very least know each other's understanding a bit better! -)
tay wrote
Quote
yes i have wondered about 41 30 myself...but neither have i seen any of who disbelieve say that..4129..have u?No, that's why a deeper meaning must be looked into.
true...but v can see from 4127-28 that 4129 is talking about a retribution....perhaps after death...so they will be making those statements when the retribution of god is realised upon them....so it is very possible that in 4130 god is contrasting the state of those who believed and stood firm on the path with the state of those who disbelieved...like i said 21104 is also a good reference...i think u perhaps overlooked it....do u have anything to add to that? -)
tay wrote
Quote
however...the quran does speak of people who recieved tidings from angels...but perhaps u dont believe the quran unless u can verify angels till u see them with ur eyes..or in the very least someone tells u "yes i saw 1"...but i guess u would still not believeWe're talking about 2 different things here. People who receive tidings from angels receive them from within. If someone told me they saw an angel, I would be very curious about the details. I don't have to see the angel, it just has to fit the understanding provided by God.
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i am not being judgemental...i am pretty cynical about god itself..but if and when i finally kick it out i dont want to have any reasonings to oppose my action!Cynicism starts you off in a negative base. It would be better to start off blank and leave yourself open to all possibilities. The Qur'an asks us again and again to look into the universe to see the signs of God. You will see no signs of angels flying around or perched on trees, or the devil and his legion of demons lurking in the shadows. What you will see is an overwhelming energy called "cause and effect". This is the basis of my understanding, and I believe it is well reinforced by the guidance of God.
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17 40 What! has then your Lord preferred to give you sons, and (for Himself) taken daughters from among the angels? Most surely you utter a grievous saying.does that mean god is talking about daughters from good emotions?
I don't believe that all angels are emotions. I believe that all emotions are /species/ of angel. Angels, as it seems to me, covers a wider range of universal energy than simply emotions. But that's another topic altogether. The problems in understanding these verses usually manifest when we take the text literally.
sorry if u mind...but i think lets get a firm understanding on 4129-30 so that v can then see the other verses with a sure understanding of those verses! -)
peace -)