The 3:7 Challenge to Arnold Yasin
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So 37 is talking about the "signs" in the "al kitab."
Ahmed, are you sure that in 37 al kitab means al quran?
100%
Cheers
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peace Ahmed,
why?
Ok bro when I have time I will explain why as this is going to be long "i feel", I have to get going with the things that i have to do before I fly in 3 days, here is a sample of what i have to do
- clean my wife car and my car
- clean my fish tank
- finish and deliver a databse to a client (I'm working on this DB since 2001)
- Prepare about 250,000 new records a call center to have enough calls while I'm away,
- get all the things I need to take with me overseas
man this is just a sample and i have to get going but I got you flagged on Profiler 2006 and surely you will hear from me why Al Kitab in 37 must means Al Quran 100%
cheers
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Peace,
AB, not all of your answers are good, but there is no need for me to answer them, as somebody has given me the exact answer i was looking for. So i agree with AB conclusion. I first didn't accept this translation, because people couldn't answer some questions about the logic behind it, now i got those answers. I first have to ask i can post them on the forum, so we have to wait for that. But it was not only the arabic that convinced but me also the answer related to it.
Like i said, i'm no arabic expert, but i have studied a lot, not to be satisfied with simple answers. But AB, you're right, i will not intervene no more before i have good answers. But on this issue i accepted an article which gave good answers i thought. That is why i answered phoenix then.
Peace
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This is what Ayman gave as answer to me which answered all my questions
003.007
YUSUFALI He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses
basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation
of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden
meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge
say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and
none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture
wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and
others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt
pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause)
dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save
Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein;
the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses
are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are
allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they
follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and
seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its
interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in
knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do
mind except those having understanding.
KHALIFA He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward
verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as
multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their
hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and
to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof
except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess
intelligence will take heed.The "waw" can be used both to separate a new sentence and for addition
(similar to an English "and". We find examples of both types of usages
in the great reading. So only looking at the "waw" doesn't tell us
enough information to decide either way. So we need to look at other
info in the passage. When we look at the rest of the passage we see that
the verb coming after "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is
the verb "say" in the plural ("yaquloon". Now notice how all
translators above, except for Khalifa, correctly don't put the pronoun
"hum" (they) before "yaquloon" and they just replicate the exact Arabic
sentence as "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say". Only
Khalifa is forced to put the pronoun "they" before "say", which is
non-existent in the Arabic original, to make the passage work. This is
for the simple reason that Khalifa knew very well that not putting the
"they" in front of "say" and adding "those well founded in knowledge" to
GOD would result in "GOD and those well founded in knowledge say".
Since, clearly the sentence "We believe in this - all of it comes from
our Lord" cannot be uttered by The God, then he needed to change the
words and insert a pronoun that is not in the original Arabic. The other
translators didn't have to do that because they ended the sentence
before the "waw". So in this case, the evidence from the passage itself
leans heavily towards the "waw" being used as a sentence separator as
opposed to for addition.More evidence is in the word "taawil" itself. I don't think that any of
the translators really did a good job in translating this key word. The
word comes from "awal" which means "original/first/ultimate". So it is
not just any meaning/understanding/interpretation but it is the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Now this
type of meaning can only be known to the author of the text that is
subject to interpretation. This is true even for human authors. For
example, you can understand and interpret what an author means in a
novel but maybe you don't know that he or she based this passage on a
childhood experience or a certain likes and dislikes, etc. Essentially,
you would heve to delve into the psyche of the human author to know the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Of course,
this is impossible.Other passages of the great reading confirm this understanding. You see
the same word in 753. It is addressing those who are waiting or expect
the original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. The
passage says that when the actual original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation comes, it will be on the day of the
account and by then it will be too late.Look around you and empirically verify the right path by comparing it to
the path of the stayers (16-7). You will see that the people who think
that they have the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation have stopped trying to get closer
to the truth. They are misguided and not progressing. If you or I
thought that we had the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation, then we wouldn't be here today. It
is only those who are firmly grounded in reality that know that what we
know is far less than what we don't know. This is true about all of The
God's signs in the universe and not just in the great reading.I think that 37 and 7431 are linked together by 226. Here is my
translation of those passages-
He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
signs that are the origin of the book, and others that are allegorical.
So in the case of
(1) Those in whose hearts there is blurriness, they pursue what is
allegorical from it (the book) desiring the "fitna"/trial/affliction and
desiring its (what is allegorical from the book) original
interpretation. And none knows its (what is allegorical from the book)
original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We have faith in it
(the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remembers other than those with intellects. -
The God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from a
mosquito to what is greater. As for those who have faith, they know that
it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who are unappreciative,
they say, "What did The God mean by such an allegory misleading many
thereby and guiding many thereby?" But He never misleads thereby except
the wicked. -
And we didn't make the owners/companions of the Fire except
controllers; and
We didn't make their count except as a "fitna"/trial/affliction for
those who have been unappreciative;
so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, those who had faith increase
in faith and those who were given the book and those who had faith do
not have doubt.
And, so that
(2) those in whose hearts there is sickness and the unappreciative say
"What did The God want with this example?" Like this The God misguides
whom He wills and guides whom He wills.
And none knows your Lord's soldiers except Him.
And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.
I hope that you can see those connections.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
-
-
Peace arnoldyasin. So what is the new translation of this important verse,and what are the implications?
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Yes, he agrees with AB, and me too now.
-
Thank you all
I'm just puzzled where is brother Ayman comment?
I'm very interested to read it
thanks
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peace AB, below is Ayman's answer as posted by Arnoldyasin. I don't know what it answers or where he got it from confused ) but it makes sense.
003.007
YUSUFALI He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses
basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation
of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden
meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge
say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and
none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture
wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and
others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt
pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause)
dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save
Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein;
the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses
are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are
allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they
follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and
seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its
interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in
knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do
mind except those having understanding.
KHALIFA He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward
verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as
multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their
hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and
to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof
except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess
intelligence will take heed.The "waw" can be used both to separate a new sentence and for addition
(similar to an English "and". We find examples of both types of usages
in the great reading. So only looking at the "waw" doesn't tell us
enough information to decide either way. So we need to look at other
info in the passage. When we look at the rest of the passage we see that
the verb coming after "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is
the verb "say" in the plural ("yaquloon". Now notice how all
translators above, except for Khalifa, correctly don't put the pronoun
"hum" (they) before "yaquloon" and they just replicate the exact Arabic
sentence as "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say". Only
Khalifa is forced to put the pronoun "they" before "say", which is
non-existent in the Arabic original, to make the passage work. This is
for the simple reason that Khalifa knew very well that not putting the
"they" in front of "say" and adding "those well founded in knowledge" to
GOD would result in "GOD and those well founded in knowledge say".
Since, clearly the sentence "We believe in this - all of it comes from
our Lord" cannot be uttered by The God, then he needed to change the
words and insert a pronoun that is not in the original Arabic. The other
translators didn't have to do that because they ended the sentence
before the "waw". So in this case, the evidence from the passage itself
leans heavily towards the "waw" being used as a sentence separator as
opposed to for addition.More evidence is in the word "taawil" itself. I don't think that any of
the translators really did a good job in translating this key word. The
word comes from "awal" which means "original/first/ultimate". So it is
not just any meaning/understanding/interpretation but it is the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Now this
type of meaning can only be known to the author of the text that is
subject to interpretation. This is true even for human authors. For
example, you can understand and interpret what an author means in a
novel but maybe you don't know that he or she based this passage on a
childhood experience or a certain likes and dislikes, etc. Essentially,
you would heve to delve into the psyche of the human author to know the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Of course,
this is impossible.Other passages of the great reading confirm this understanding. You see
the same word in 753. It is addressing those who are waiting or expect
the original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. The
passage says that when the actual original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation comes, it will be on the day of the
account and by then it will be too late.Look around you and empirically verify the right path by comparing it to
the path of the stayers (16-7). You will see that the people who think
that they have the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation have stopped trying to get closer
to the truth. They are misguided and not progressing. If you or I
thought that we had the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation, then we wouldn't be here today. It
is only those who are firmly grounded in reality that know that what we
know is far less than what we don't know. This is true about all of The
God's signs in the universe and not just in the great reading.I think that 37 and 7431 are linked together by 226. Here is my
translation of those passages-
He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
signs that are the origin of the book, and others that are allegorical.
So in the case of
(1) Those in whose hearts there is blurriness, they pursue what is
allegorical from it (the book) desiring the "fitna"/trial/affliction and
desiring its (what is allegorical from the book) original
interpretation. And none knows its (what is allegorical from the book)
original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We have faith in it
(the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remembers other than those with intellects. -
The God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from a
mosquito to what is greater. As for those who have faith, they know that
it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who are unappreciative,
they say, "What did The God mean by such an allegory misleading many
thereby and guiding many thereby?" But He never misleads thereby except
the wicked. -
And we didn't make the owners/companions of the Fire except
controllers; and
We didn't make their count except as a "fitna"/trial/affliction for
those who have been unappreciative;
so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, those who had faith increase
in faith and those who were given the book and those who had faith do
not have doubt.
And, so that
(2) those in whose hearts there is sickness and the unappreciative say
"What did The God want with this example?" Like this The God misguides
whom He wills and guides whom He wills.
And none knows your Lord's soldiers except Him.
And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.
I hope that you can see those connections.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
-
-
Thank you phonix
it feels good when muslims agree together
cheers
-
peace Ahmed,
it does. sun
I will take the chance and say sorry to arnold as i didn't notice that he was the one that posted Ayman comment, i left the thread for a day and today looked at the last comments then tried to see where is Ayman comment but could not find it so i asked my question pre maturaly I guess, but thanks for the help
cheers
-
peace
for those who couldn't see it
This is Ayman's tralnslation of verse 37
- He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
signs that are the origin of the book, and others that are allegorical.
So in the case of
(1) Those in whose hearts there is blurriness, they pursue what is
allegorical from it (the book) desiring the "fitna"/trial/affliction and
desiring its (what is allegorical from the book) original
interpretation. And none knows its (what is allegorical from the book)
original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We have faith in it
(the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remembers other than those with intellects.
Completely agree w/ it. Makes A lot more sense. And Thanks to Ayman
God bless
God is the Greatest !
- He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
-
Peace,
Someone sended me this also, plus i got the mail from Ayman through personal contact.
Mutashabihaat , Mukimaat
003.007
YUSUFALI He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.This ayah explains that there are two different kind of ayah in Quran, one Muhkimaat and the other Mutashabihaat. Generally speaking all the ayah which have guidelines mandatory to live in a harmonious way in a society are in the category of Mukimaat and one does not get confused and there are no other meaning which one could invent such as ?atee uz zakaat?, halal and haram things, treatment of POW?s, treatment with parents , neighbors , orphans and others, and the list goes on.
At this point I would like to take you back to the beginning of Surah Al-Baqrah ayah 2
22 This Book is the Guidance you asked for! There is absolutely no doubt concerning its authority and authenticity. This Divine Writ, Al-Qur?an, is a Monograph that finds its own way from your mind to your heart. And you will soon notice, as you proceed, that this Scripture leaves no lingering doubts in a sincere, seeking heart or mind. If you remember that this is a Book of Guidance, and hence, consult with it as such, the glittering reality will dawn upon you that this is a Beacon of Light! It is a Guide for all those who wish to journey through life in true honor and security. -------QXP
?La?raib? makes it clear that there is no physical or psychological doubt in this book.
It?s a thing of common observation that in all the civilizations not all the human beings possessed same level of intellect and this applies not only to men of different era but also to the people who lived on the face of earth at the same time. Just look around you will see kids sitting in the same class room, being taught same syllabus by the same teacher end up in different ways, some achieve highest degrees of knowledge and some are left behind. The same phenomenon is observed towards the understanding of Quran. Quran was not meant to be only for certain time period but for all the generations and civilizations to come. This is why the Permanent values are described in easy and plain language. However the Abstract thoughts are explained in a language which is more complex and beautiful and this could be the only way to explain them. Did you ever come across any book of philosophy which could be understood equally by everyone and did not the author use allegorical language to explain certain things? Quran is a message for the human beings and the language was especially picked to make it easy to understand and last forever. Just for an example the literature produced by human is also not understood fully and uniformly by all the humans. There is an other aspect to this issue. Only Allah is ?Alimul Ghaib Washahadah?, His example is like someone sitting on the top of a hill able to see things on both sides of the hill but the people on the ground can see only whats visible to them. Therefore limitation of knowledge come to play and make certain ayah ?mutashabihaat? for us because we do not possess appropriate knowledge to understand them and with the advancement of knowledge those ayah which were ?mutashabihaat? first become ?muhkimaat? such as the scientific facts mentioned in Quran were hard to understand for the men of those times. Before Quran the design of solar system thought out by Greek philosophers and scientists was totally different, they thought Earth was at the center of the system and rest of planets were revolving around it including the sun.
QXP
3638 And the sun it runs its appointed course. That is the measure of the Almighty, the Knower.
(The sun along with its system is moving to the Solar Apex, Constellation of Hercules, at a speed 150 miles per second, according to the current science).
3639 And the moon We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
3640 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outrun the day. All of them swim along in their orbits. (The sun cannot cause the moon to gravitate towards itself and the night and the day cannot lengthen or shorten other than the appointed measure 2133, 2261, 2562, 3129, 4137, 576).
3641 Another Sign for them is that We carry the Children of Adam on the loaded ship.
3642 And We have created for them similar things to ride on. (And will create things of which you have no knowledge yet 16.
These scientific facts could not be understood by the people of ancient times and hence these ayah were mutashabihaat for them but for us have become muhkimaat. Even now these ayah are muhkimaat for only ?Rasikhoon fil Ilm and there are many who are unable to understand because they have not acquired enough scientific knowledge. Therefore an ayah can be a muhkim and mutashabih at the same time for people of different intellectual level. See the example below
QXP
4229 And among His Signs is the creative design of the Heavens and the Earth, and the living creatures which He has dispersed throughout them. And He is Able to gather them together when He will. (Herein is an allusion to the existence of life in other celestial bodies, and to man meeting with the 'aliens' some day 1649).This ayah was in the category of Mutashabih when science had not probed into the outer space but for ?rasikhoon fil ilm? of today has become a muhkim ayah.
This helps conclude that one meaning of mutashabihaat is a category of ayah whose understanding depends on the level of knowledge and advancement of knowledge puts them in the category of muhkimaat.
There is an other category of Mutashabihaat which is purely allegorical such as
QXP
423 The following women are prohibited for you in marriage Your mothers, daughters, sisters, father's sisters, mother's sisters, brother's daughters, sister's daughters, foster-mothers who have ever nursed you, foster-sisters, your wives' mothers, your step-daughters unless you have divorced their mother without being intimate with her. Also forbidden are women who have ever been the wives of your sons. You are not allowed to keep two sisters in wedlock at one time except what has already happened in the past. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Here in this ayah the word ?ummahaatukum? is used in its literal meaning but in 3/6 ?hunna ummul kitbay? is used allegorically. Similarly
754 Verily, your Sustainer is Allah Who has created the heavens and the earth in six stages, and is established on the Throne of His Almightiness (103, 132). He draws the night over the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession. The sun, the moon, the stars are committed to serve by His Command. Listen and remember, to Him belongs the World of Creation, and to Him belongs the World of Command. Exalted, He is the Lord of the Worlds.
This ?THRONE? and Allah sitting on His throne is not like a Mughal or Roman king sitting on his throne. Throne is the symbol of Power or Authority and it would be interpreted as Allah has the authority over everything.
2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?
This is another example of Mutashabihaat for those who are not ?Rasikhoon fil ilm? or those who are not ?allazeen ootul kitaab? or ?oolilalbaab?. But for those men of knowledge this ayah is muhkim?.We still know a little about how the life came into being and how Allah exercised his Power to create life, so that part is still not very much understood and will be considered as Mutashabihah.
We either don?t know at this level of intellect or have little knowledge and there are certain things which will remain un-understood even to the last man of this system because its not possible for human beings to have a full understanding of something what?s not material.
1785 (O Messenger) They ask you about the (Spirit, the Soul), the Revelation. Tell them, ?Revelation is from your Lord's World of Command, of which you have been given little knowledge.? The Spirit is the Divine Energy, something from which has been given to humans in the form of free will. The Soul is your "Self".
Therefore, Mutashabihah are of two kinds
1-Those which are purely allegorical like Hand of Allah, Throne of Allah, Ummul kitaab etc
2-Those for which you need ample knowledge to understand the reality such life in outer space, solar system, creation of first life etc etc.
Lets see few more ayah which tells us that Quran is all ?muhkimaat? and also at an other point all ? mutashabihaat?.
Continued
I will explain it further in the next post
Regards
taseer