A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
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Peace,
Yes, 43 points to special circumstances directly connected with the social wellfare of the orphans, so polygamy has rules to it. Also interresting note is that nikaa means more then just marriage, it also means contract/pledge/mixing/combining. So the nikaa in this verse can also be taken as a social contract and not direct marriage. But i understand that in war time when a lot of husbands are killed, it is acceptable multiple wives can be taken to give them and their children a father and husband. But it clearly related to special circumstances, not just any time of the year. So polygamy is bound to strict rules.
Peace
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Peace warner,
Although Brother Yaseen makes some interesting points can not agree with his view
that Polygamy is not allowed in the Quraan .423
Pickthall.....And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together
Yusuf Ali.....and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time except for what is pastIf polygamy is not allowed the above quoted part of the verse 423 will not be necessary .
Since you cannot marry 2 or more at the same time how can the question of having 2 sisters at the same
time can be an issue.This is my humble opinion from the Quraan , Please add your thoughts.
Sorry warner, you have no point.
Allah does not allow polygamy ANYWHERE in al-qur'aan.
Firstly, 423 is not permission for polygamy. People used to practice polygamy before revelation of al-qur'aan because they were not following Allah's laws. 423 mentions about a special case of polygamy with 2 sisters which was being practiced BEFORE revelation of al-qur'aan, and Allah forbids that practice after revelation of this verse, but forgives people who did it in the past before the revelation of that verse. This DOES NOT MEAN that Allah is allowing bigamy with 2 sisters.
Secondly, in al-qur'aan, including 43, Allah nowhere allows polygamy, so saying that 423 implies that polygamy is allowed creates CONTRADICTION in Allah's words.
Brother Yaseen's answer to you is as follows, quoted from his article
"Is there ?bigamy? through verse 423?
Prohibited to are- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
?Verse 423? is not about polygamy, or bigamy. It is about incest and incestuous relationships. ?Polygamy? is only visible to a conditioned mind that has taken ?polygamy? as an acceptable practice. The above verse lists the categories of women who are unlawful to a man for marriage be it polygamous or monogamous; you can?t marry your mother and your daughter simultaneously or separately. If any of these types of marriages was in place at the time of revelation, this would not and could not have continued under any circumstances. The last mention in this chain list of incestuous relationships is the ?joining? between the two sisters, that is being married to two sisters at the same time and the exception that follows it, only refers to this latter incestuous relationship only. For those who still insist in seeing polygamy/bigamy, I will ask them one simple question
What about if one was married to 3 sisters at the same time, should he divorce one of the sisters after receiving this revelation?
The main point is in the same way that God did not command believers to free all slaves at once, He also did not command them to divorce all wives except one from polygamous marriages (if say one was married to 3 wives or more), the exception made through incestuous relationships mentioned in verse 423 is for a believer not to divorce any of the two sisters, although the latter is more of an incestuous situation before being a simple polygamous case.
Now if we accept that verse 43 is not about polygamy, are we going to search for bigamy through verse 423?"
Link for the above quote
http//www.geocities.com/yaseen_q/polygamy.html
Regards,
Tanveer
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Just for info
Sorry i wouldn't try marrying off any one in the west - one may do so if parties want it and not otherwise.I think you will be locked up otherwise.
Br. yaseen said
?Marry off those who are single among you and those of your male and female servants who are righteous. If they are poor, God will enrich them of his grace, for God is bounteous and all-knowing.?'(
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Peace Tanveer
First where did incest come from . What is the Arabic word for Incest and is it defined or mentioned in the Quraan. As far as I know (and I can be wrong) Quraan doesnt say incest, but it just prohibits(some times very strongly) or allows. Marrying sisters is not "incest"- like you like to call it- since it allows you to marry one at a time. Say if you separate or one sister dies you can marry her sister and so on. SO NO "INCEST " HERE. "Incest" means YOU CAN NOT MARRY OR HAVE SEX UNDER WHATEVER CIRCUMSTANCES.
Its the most basic logic. Can not means you cannot, 2,3,4 or more sisters...can not marry at same time its implied. When you can not marry 2 it automatically says you can not marry 3. You can not marry a third sister without marrying a second sister. So that argument has no point.
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Peace warner,
First where did incest come from . What is the Arabic word for Incest and is it defined or mentioned in the Quraan. As far as I know (and I can be wrong) Quraan doesnt say incest, but it just prohibits(some times very strongly) or allows. Marrying sisters is not "incest"- like you like to call it- since it allows you to marry one at a time. Say if you separate or one sister dies you can marry her sister and so on. SO NO "INCEST " HERE. "Incest" means YOU CAN NOT MARRY OR HAVE SEX UNDER WHATEVER CIRCUMSTANCES.
Its the most basic logic. Can not means you cannot, 2,3,4 or more sisters...can not marry at same time its implied. When you can not marry 2 it automatically says you can not marry 3. You can not marry a third sister without marrying a second sister. So that argument has no point.
That is not my argument but brother Yaseen's. I just quoted from his article. You can address this with brother Yaseen if you want. His point that polygamy is not allowed in 423 stands. Forget about the incest argument which I agree is not valid.
As I mentioned in my post, 423 DOES NOT allow marrying 2 sisters at a time. It just mentions the wrong practice of people before the revelation of al-qur'aan which was being performed because they were not following Allah's laws. 423 PROHIBITS that wrong practice, not allow it. It makes no sense to me how you can get the idea from 423 that Allah allows polygamy. Let me repeat my points
Allah does not allow polygamy ANYWHERE in al-qur'aan.
Firstly, 423 is not permission for polygamy. People used to practice polygamy before revelation of al-qur'aan because they were not following Allah's laws. 423 mentions about a special case of polygamy with 2 sisters which was being practiced BEFORE revelation of al-qur'aan, and Allah forbids that practice after revelation of this verse, but forgives people who did it in the past before the revelation of that verse. This DOES NOT MEAN that Allah is allowing bigamy/polygamy with 2 sisters.
Secondly, in al-qur'aan, including 43, Allah nowhere allows polygamy, so saying that 423 implies that polygamy is allowed creates CONTRADICTION in Allah's words. The wrong interpretations of 43 and 423 create CONTRADICTIONS with other parts of al-qur'aan as explained in brother Yaseen's article.
Its the most basic logic. Can not means you cannot, 2,3,4 or more sisters...can not marry at same time its implied.
That is what I am saying too. 423 does not mean you can marry 2 or more sisters at the same time. Hence 423 does not allow polygamy.
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Peace,
If 4/23 was said under the notion that polygamy is disallowed, then it would have addressed the issue and not said so only for the 2 sisters at once scenario.
423 does not allow polygamy.
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Peace simple,
Sorry i wouldn't try marrying off any one in the west - one may do so if parties want it and not otherwise.
Of course you cannot marry someone off without his/her permission. That is what al-qur'aan says too. However it is those who mistranslate 43 into meaning marry are the ones who also mistranslate the verse into meaning that the women orphans can be married without their permission.
Following is the mistranslation of 43
43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then marry those whom you see fit from their mothers, two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you are already betrothed to. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.
"whom you see fit" ????? That is laughable and ridiculous. What about their permission ??
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
Original arabic ............ ............
44 ......."ma taba lakum"....... This is taken as "who has become good to you" or "who are lawful to you" or "of your choice". It can be proved that these interpretations are against the Quran and create contradiction. The women in question are fully qualified from the Quran and do not need an additional attribute. The Quran is its own dictionary. Please note that the verb "taba" is in the past tense as is in 45 (fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan) though there is a subtle difference. In 45, these women are giving a part of what they are entitled to (saduqatihinna) of their own accord. In 44, they are also giving something but not physical They are giving their consent to the idea of marriage. "ma taba lakum" means "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
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Peace,
It's an indirect allowance because if polygamy was disallowed, Allah would said that if you have 2 wives except what is past. Why is he only concerned only about 2 sisters ? The rest of womankind is irrelevant to him?
Let me repeat 423 does not allow polygamy. Mentioning a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.
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There is no question that Polygamy is allowed as long as it is for the care of the orphans, but if the man doubt that he won't be just with the multiple wives then he should marry one and not to worry about the orphans
the two sisters thingy has nothing to do with it, in the past they just used to marry two sisters at the same time and Allah topped that in the Quran as He stopped many traditions that the early humans used to practice
Salam
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Peace,
Let me then ask you, why does 4/23 not prohibit polygamy altogether? Why only for 2 sisters?
Show me where 423 allows polygamy. Mentioning that bigamy is forbidden in a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.
423 does not allow polygamy.
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Peace brother tanvermd
you said
423 does not allow polygamy.
and I totally agree
cheers
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Hello Everyone
Brother Tanverrmd asked me a very good question that I like to take into the public arena
Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
I thought that you believed 43 is a mutashabih verse and it correctly means one cannot marry more than one otherwise it creates contradiction with other places in al-qur'aan where we are allowed only to marry one at a time.
Following is what you wrote in another thread
Finally how we can know that a verse is Mutashabih?, simply if we find that it can give two contradictory meaning, or two meaning that totally different and can cause confusion, like marrying 4 women for example, that Mutashabih verse 43 was overwritten by another Muhkam verses in the same sura that told us men can?t be fair with more than one woman hence it ordered us to marry only one, and we can see how the Mutashabih 43 verse causes a lot of back fire on the Muslims who wanted to justify their actions of polygamy in many different ways they interpreted verse (43), the fact of the matter is we don?t need that verse to find out of we should marry 4 or not, because the moment we discover the possibly contradictory meaning in it we should stop chasing its meaning as 37 told, However Allah didn?t leave us confused with the Mutashabih verse 43 He told us later to marry only one and even why we should marry only one
The above is from this link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5840.msg88588#msg88588
Best regards,
Tanveer
Peace mate
sure, but you forgot that this is my own interpetation that I feel comfotable to "Not to apply on myself" rayher how I understand it from the arabic context, on the other hand I CAN'T FAULT the other understanding hence it is Mutashabih
i will actually post this reply on that thread
but I appreciate your question
cheers
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Show me where 423 allows polygamy. Mentioning that bigamy is forbidden in a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.
Well, if the mentioning of bigamy in this specific case happens to be THE ONLY forbidding of this kind, that's exactly what it means. Unless you're forbidding what Allah allows, of course.
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Peace mquran
Well, if the mentioning of bigamy in this specific case happens to be THE ONLY forbidding of this kind, that's exactly what it means. Unless you're forbidding what Allah allows, of course.
423 does not allow polygamy.
According to your logic, if only bigamy with sisters is forbidden then polygamy with everyone else at all times is allowed. That is faulty logic. All 423 says is bigamy with sisters is forbidden. It does not say that polygamy is allowed. You are conjecturing when you imply that it allows polygamy. That is attributing to Allah what He is not saying. I will not discuss this issue with you any further because you insist in conjecturing something that Allah does not say.
Regards,
Tanveer
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TanveerAccording to your logic, if only bigamy with sisters is forbidden then polygamy with everyone else at all times is allowed. That is faulty logic. All 423 says is bigamy with sisters is forbidden. It does not say that polygamy is allowed. You are conjecturing when you imply that it allows polygamy. That is attributing to Allah what He is not saying. I will not discuss this issue with you any further because you insist in conjecturing something that Allah does not say
Here's my logic, Tanveer
- al-quraan is explained in detail.
- al-quraan is a book containing similarities repeating itself.
- al-quraan does not forbid polygamy (the phrase 'haram for you' or 'do not marry more than one woman'
- in the only questionable verse, it mentions SISTERS, not even womankind.
yet in this fully-detailed, similarly-explaining books, not a single verse can you find prohibiting polygyny.
Where's the conjecture?
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Peace all,
I think that Allah does not allow polygamy for us anywhere in The Quran, except for Prophet Muhammad.
yet in this fully-detailed, similarly-explaining books, not a single verse can you find prohibiting polygyny.
2432 And marry off those among you that are SINGLE, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
Allah clearly tells us to marry/marry off the single among us. That proves that Allah does not allow polygamy. If a single person marries an already married person then he/she is not marrying a single person which goes against 2432.
The only exception is for Prophet Muhammad
336 The prophet is closer to the believers than themselves, and his wives are mothers to them.
3328 O prophet, say to your wives "If you are seeking this worldly life and its vanities, then come, I will make a provision for you and release you in an amicable manner."
3330 O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits evident lewdness, then the retribution will be doubled for her. This is easy for God to do.
3332 O wives of the prophet, you are not like any other women. If you are righteous, then do not speak too softly, lest those with disease in their hearts will move with desire; you shall speak in an honourable manner.
