A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
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Peace warner,
First where did incest come from . What is the Arabic word for Incest and is it defined or mentioned in the Quraan. As far as I know (and I can be wrong) Quraan doesnt say incest, but it just prohibits(some times very strongly) or allows. Marrying sisters is not "incest"- like you like to call it- since it allows you to marry one at a time. Say if you separate or one sister dies you can marry her sister and so on. SO NO "INCEST " HERE. "Incest" means YOU CAN NOT MARRY OR HAVE SEX UNDER WHATEVER CIRCUMSTANCES.
Its the most basic logic. Can not means you cannot, 2,3,4 or more sisters...can not marry at same time its implied. When you can not marry 2 it automatically says you can not marry 3. You can not marry a third sister without marrying a second sister. So that argument has no point.
That is not my argument but brother Yaseen's. I just quoted from his article. You can address this with brother Yaseen if you want. His point that polygamy is not allowed in 423 stands. Forget about the incest argument which I agree is not valid.
As I mentioned in my post, 423 DOES NOT allow marrying 2 sisters at a time. It just mentions the wrong practice of people before the revelation of al-qur'aan which was being performed because they were not following Allah's laws. 423 PROHIBITS that wrong practice, not allow it. It makes no sense to me how you can get the idea from 423 that Allah allows polygamy. Let me repeat my points
Allah does not allow polygamy ANYWHERE in al-qur'aan.
Firstly, 423 is not permission for polygamy. People used to practice polygamy before revelation of al-qur'aan because they were not following Allah's laws. 423 mentions about a special case of polygamy with 2 sisters which was being practiced BEFORE revelation of al-qur'aan, and Allah forbids that practice after revelation of this verse, but forgives people who did it in the past before the revelation of that verse. This DOES NOT MEAN that Allah is allowing bigamy/polygamy with 2 sisters.
Secondly, in al-qur'aan, including 43, Allah nowhere allows polygamy, so saying that 423 implies that polygamy is allowed creates CONTRADICTION in Allah's words. The wrong interpretations of 43 and 423 create CONTRADICTIONS with other parts of al-qur'aan as explained in brother Yaseen's article.
Its the most basic logic. Can not means you cannot, 2,3,4 or more sisters...can not marry at same time its implied.
That is what I am saying too. 423 does not mean you can marry 2 or more sisters at the same time. Hence 423 does not allow polygamy.
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Peace,
If 4/23 was said under the notion that polygamy is disallowed, then it would have addressed the issue and not said so only for the 2 sisters at once scenario.
423 does not allow polygamy.
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Peace simple,
Sorry i wouldn't try marrying off any one in the west - one may do so if parties want it and not otherwise.
Of course you cannot marry someone off without his/her permission. That is what al-qur'aan says too. However it is those who mistranslate 43 into meaning marry are the ones who also mistranslate the verse into meaning that the women orphans can be married without their permission.
Following is the mistranslation of 43
43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then marry those whom you see fit from their mothers, two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you are already betrothed to. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.
"whom you see fit" ????? That is laughable and ridiculous. What about their permission ??
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
Original arabic ............ ............
44 ......."ma taba lakum"....... This is taken as "who has become good to you" or "who are lawful to you" or "of your choice". It can be proved that these interpretations are against the Quran and create contradiction. The women in question are fully qualified from the Quran and do not need an additional attribute. The Quran is its own dictionary. Please note that the verb "taba" is in the past tense as is in 45 (fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan) though there is a subtle difference. In 45, these women are giving a part of what they are entitled to (saduqatihinna) of their own accord. In 44, they are also giving something but not physical They are giving their consent to the idea of marriage. "ma taba lakum" means "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
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Peace,
It's an indirect allowance because if polygamy was disallowed, Allah would said that if you have 2 wives except what is past. Why is he only concerned only about 2 sisters ? The rest of womankind is irrelevant to him?
Let me repeat 423 does not allow polygamy. Mentioning a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.
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There is no question that Polygamy is allowed as long as it is for the care of the orphans, but if the man doubt that he won't be just with the multiple wives then he should marry one and not to worry about the orphans
the two sisters thingy has nothing to do with it, in the past they just used to marry two sisters at the same time and Allah topped that in the Quran as He stopped many traditions that the early humans used to practice
Salam
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Peace,
Let me then ask you, why does 4/23 not prohibit polygamy altogether? Why only for 2 sisters?
Show me where 423 allows polygamy. Mentioning that bigamy is forbidden in a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.
423 does not allow polygamy.
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Peace brother tanvermd
you said
423 does not allow polygamy.
and I totally agree
cheers
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Hello Everyone
Brother Tanverrmd asked me a very good question that I like to take into the public arena
Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
I thought that you believed 43 is a mutashabih verse and it correctly means one cannot marry more than one otherwise it creates contradiction with other places in al-qur'aan where we are allowed only to marry one at a time.
Following is what you wrote in another thread
Finally how we can know that a verse is Mutashabih?, simply if we find that it can give two contradictory meaning, or two meaning that totally different and can cause confusion, like marrying 4 women for example, that Mutashabih verse 43 was overwritten by another Muhkam verses in the same sura that told us men can?t be fair with more than one woman hence it ordered us to marry only one, and we can see how the Mutashabih 43 verse causes a lot of back fire on the Muslims who wanted to justify their actions of polygamy in many different ways they interpreted verse (43), the fact of the matter is we don?t need that verse to find out of we should marry 4 or not, because the moment we discover the possibly contradictory meaning in it we should stop chasing its meaning as 37 told, However Allah didn?t leave us confused with the Mutashabih verse 43 He told us later to marry only one and even why we should marry only one
The above is from this link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5840.msg88588#msg88588
Best regards,
Tanveer
Peace mate
sure, but you forgot that this is my own interpetation that I feel comfotable to "Not to apply on myself" rayher how I understand it from the arabic context, on the other hand I CAN'T FAULT the other understanding hence it is Mutashabih
i will actually post this reply on that thread
but I appreciate your question
cheers
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Show me where 423 allows polygamy. Mentioning that bigamy is forbidden in a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.
Well, if the mentioning of bigamy in this specific case happens to be THE ONLY forbidding of this kind, that's exactly what it means. Unless you're forbidding what Allah allows, of course.
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Peace mquran
Well, if the mentioning of bigamy in this specific case happens to be THE ONLY forbidding of this kind, that's exactly what it means. Unless you're forbidding what Allah allows, of course.
423 does not allow polygamy.
According to your logic, if only bigamy with sisters is forbidden then polygamy with everyone else at all times is allowed. That is faulty logic. All 423 says is bigamy with sisters is forbidden. It does not say that polygamy is allowed. You are conjecturing when you imply that it allows polygamy. That is attributing to Allah what He is not saying. I will not discuss this issue with you any further because you insist in conjecturing something that Allah does not say.
Regards,
Tanveer
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TanveerAccording to your logic, if only bigamy with sisters is forbidden then polygamy with everyone else at all times is allowed. That is faulty logic. All 423 says is bigamy with sisters is forbidden. It does not say that polygamy is allowed. You are conjecturing when you imply that it allows polygamy. That is attributing to Allah what He is not saying. I will not discuss this issue with you any further because you insist in conjecturing something that Allah does not say
Here's my logic, Tanveer
- al-quraan is explained in detail.
- al-quraan is a book containing similarities repeating itself.
- al-quraan does not forbid polygamy (the phrase 'haram for you' or 'do not marry more than one woman'
- in the only questionable verse, it mentions SISTERS, not even womankind.
yet in this fully-detailed, similarly-explaining books, not a single verse can you find prohibiting polygyny.
Where's the conjecture?
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Peace all,
I think that Allah does not allow polygamy for us anywhere in The Quran, except for Prophet Muhammad.
yet in this fully-detailed, similarly-explaining books, not a single verse can you find prohibiting polygyny.
2432 And marry off those among you that are SINGLE, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
Allah clearly tells us to marry/marry off the single among us. That proves that Allah does not allow polygamy. If a single person marries an already married person then he/she is not marrying a single person which goes against 2432.
The only exception is for Prophet Muhammad
336 The prophet is closer to the believers than themselves, and his wives are mothers to them.
3328 O prophet, say to your wives "If you are seeking this worldly life and its vanities, then come, I will make a provision for you and release you in an amicable manner."
3330 O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits evident lewdness, then the retribution will be doubled for her. This is easy for God to do.
3332 O wives of the prophet, you are not like any other women. If you are righteous, then do not speak too softly, lest those with disease in their hearts will move with desire; you shall speak in an honourable manner.
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Peace,
Just a few questions, I have discussed this before as well and after reading the posts and verses presented, it does raise some issues.
Show me where 423 allows polygamy. Mentioning that bigamy is forbidden in a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.
Well, if the mentioning of bigamy in this specific case happens to be THE ONLY forbidding of this kind, that's exactly what it means. Unless you're forbidding what Allah allows, of course
.This raises flags as mquran said...if the mention of bigamy happens to be a special case that's forbidden, it begs the question so in other cases it's okay? Secondly, regarding 2432, you would obviously marry off the single among us and the good from the male and female servants as they are the ones most in need (of help/encouragement/support/finances?) to get married. Marry off being the key. If one is independant, they can marry themselves and it will not be someone marrying them off. Thus, those independent are the ones who are already married or not and capable of supporting their family and do not need to be 'married off'. One would think that if polygamy was going to be an issue, we would have a direct verse about it rather than only a specific instance where it is forbidden. I would like more clarification here. Is there a break after the word single in the verse 2432 meaning that it does not only apply to the servants that follow in the same sentence? How/why do we put the comma there?
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Peace all,
Why would it be "marry off" in 2432 and "marry" in 43; it is the same word. Why can't it be "marry" in 2432 ?
Most translators say "marry" instead of marry off in 2432
Yusuf Ali Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.
Shakir And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
Pickthal And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.
Arberry Marry the spouseless among you, and your slaves and handmaidens that are righteous; if they are poor, God will enrich them of His bounty; God is All-embracing, All-knowing.
George Sale Marry those who are single among you, and such as are honest of your men-servants, and your maid-servants If they be poor, God will enrich them of his abundance; for God is bounteous and wise.
Hilali/Khan And marry those among you who are single (i.e. a man who has no wife and the woman who has no husband) and (also marry) the Salihoon (pious, fit and capable ones) of your (male) slaves and maid-servants (female slaves). If they be poor, Allah will enrich them out of His Bounty. And Allah is All-Sufficent for His creatures needs, All-Knowing (about the state of the people).
Malik Get the singles among you married as well as those who are fit for marriage among your male slaves and female slaves. If they are poor, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace for Allah has boundless resources and is All-Knowing.
Maulana Ali And marry those among you who are single, and those who are fit among your males slaves and your female slaves. If they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace. And Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
QXP And marry the single among you, (whether they are widowed, divorced or bachelors). And those who are still being kept as slaves, male or female, such of them as are fit to marry. If they are poor, Allah will enrich them with His Bounty, for, Allah is of Infinite means, All-Knowing.
Sarwar Marry the single people among you and the righteous slaves and slave-girls. If you are poor, God will make you rich through His favor; He is Bountiful and All-knowing. -
In addition to the above by platinum
Why would it be "marry off" in 2432 and "marry" in 43; it is the same word. Why can't it be "marry" in 2432 ?
Two questions
- If it is marry then does this still mean there is a break after the word single?
- If the break is subjective and the word is still marry, why does it not make sense that it is more of a social guidance that we should help the single from among the servants and the poor to get married?
Okay edited to put in the literal, explanations welcomed.
2432 Waankihoo al-ayama minkum waalssaliheena min AAibadikum wa-ima-ikum in yakoonoo fuqaraa yughnihimu Allahu min fadlihi waAllahu wasiAAun AAaleemun
And marry the widows/widowers from you, and the correct/righteous from your slaves/servants and your owned (F) slaves, if they be poor/needy God enriches/suffices them from His grace/favour/blessing, and God (is) rich/spread , knowledgeable.
In my current understanding, this makes it even more of a social guidance if the words are the widows/widowers. In many countries there is prejudice and dicrimination against divorced/widowed women more so than men and on the women's side they get left out for never married girls. Given a choice many women/girls would opt for never married men too as they say it has less baggage to deal with. Maybe this is a way of telling people that we should not discriminate against them for never-married/well-off people?
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Peace all,
I think the break after single or the comma is because "single" is from "minkum" and "saliheen" is from the servants. So 2432 is asking us to marry the single AMONG US (us all), and is also giving us a second advice to marry the "saliheen" from the servants. That makes it clear that Allah is not allowing polygamy, because in case of polygamy a person marries an already married, and not a single.
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Oops sorry platinum, didn't see your post. Can you edit the one above to explain the words used in the literal as widows/widowers? Peace.