what scientific evidence from the Quran was not known to the peers of its time?
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Peace,
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Peace arnoldyasin. Listen,scientists could make a book now,and put all the 'irrefeutable' science of today and yesteryear in it,along with a few cutting-edge and vaguely worded theories too,and all the best social philosophies from around the world/history/scriptures.......Then in 1000 years time im sure people will claim this book is from god...Do you get me now?...Ok, if they would write down things, let's say about 40 things and bring them as facts, but ONLY things that are not known now, and even things that go against the main stream scientifical theories of now. then you would have your point. But it is IMPOSSIBLE that they could guess the right things. I'm talking here about facts that were NOT known in the time of Muhammed, and even went AGAINST the main scientifical theories of his times. So your argument is ignorant.
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Those things were NOT and some IMPOSSIBLE to be known in Muhammed's time.
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It are more then 40 statements that are proven facts in science now.
3 ALL of these statements are proven true.
- All of these statements went against the scientifical thinking of Muhammed's time.
This is impossible enquirer to do, your argument shows that you haven't really thought about all of these things. You say collect all the KNOWN facts of these times and all of the NEW cutting edge theories in to one book.
All of the things in the Quran were NOT KNOWN in Muhammed's time and were not NEW theories in Muhammed's time. These facts were not even PRESENT in Muhammed's time to profess. Do you get me now??????
Peace
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We are here talking about the science of development of a human in the womb. I didn't say all science enquirer, don't say things i never said. Read before you think please. Before 1800 there were no scientifical proof of what really were the phases and how it all looked like in those phases with the development of humans. And i never proclaimed people came to know this because of the Quran. Western scientist discovered after 1750's all of these things through research on their own, but these facts were not present before the 17-1800's, but were already told in the Quran.
When i was talking about symbols of conspiracy. Another board member pointed out that itw as focused around western lodges, and civilisation only. It is the same case with science and philosophy. If it didnt happen in the western hemisphere, it didnt happen at all.
Sushruta is the father of surgery. 2600 years ago he and health scientists of his time conducted complicated surgeries like cesareans,cataract, artificial limbs, fractures, urinary stones and even plastic surgery and brain surgery. Usage of anesthesia was well known in ancient India. Over 125 surgical equipment were used. Deep knowledge of anatomyphysiology, etiology, embryology,digestion, metabolism, genetics and immunity is also found in many texts.
"The surgery of the ancient Indian physicians was bold and skilful. A special branch of surgery was dedicated to rhinoplasty or operations for improving deformed ears, noses and forming new ones, which European surgeons have now borrowed."
-Sir W. Hunter (British Surgeon, 1718-1783)for further info a good starting point is a usual http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta
peace
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Peace arnoldyasin. I will leave others to answer my questions,as you dont seem to understand my post,or you are too 'subjectively' commited to the quran,or you just are convinced the quran is right...Anyway no hard feelings....You have every right to believe in the quran subjectively....Just dont claim its universal....Because it just plain aint... ) group
peace and respect...
And please take note of magis excellent points in his last post...Dont believe if it wasnt known in the west,that it wasnt known at all...You are better than this arnoldyasin...please think on these matters my brother... -
Peace,
Yes i know that the western only reinvented things, but that is not the point, now we only need to see if ALL his findings on embryology were true, plus we need to find a person in history that knew it was the male sperm that decides the gender, plus we need to find persons who new about the expansion of the universe and the big-bang. Plus we need to find persons who knew about the different levels of light that differs on sea-levels. Persons who know about the 7 layers of air from thwe ground to the stratossphere. Persons who knew about the uniqueness of the fingerprint, persons who knew about the pollinizing winds, persons who knew a lot on sociology, persons who knew the earth is egg-shaped and not just round, persons who knew about that black holes penetrate the space-time field, persons who knew............ should i go on?
When you have found ALL of these persons that discovered from before 600AD and show that their writings were known in the Arabia pensila, plus give a good explanation how Muhammed knew to pick all of these out, and got them ALL right. Then we can talk further.....
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin. I will leave others to answer my questions,as you dont seem to understand my post,or you are too 'subjectively' commited to the quran,or you just are convinced the quran is right...Anyway no hard feelings....You have every right to believe in the quran subjectively....Just dont claim its universal....Because it just plain aint... group
peace and respect...
And please take note of magis excellent points in his last post...Dont believe if it wasnt known in the west,that it wasnt known at all...You are better than this arnoldyasin...please think on these matters my brother...I understood perfectly what you meant, but show then what i answered wrong......
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Peace,
Yes i know that the western only reinvented things, but that is not the point, now we only need to see if ALL his findings on embryology were true, plus we need to find a person in history that knew it was the male sperm that decides the gender, plus we need to find persons who new about the expansion of the universe and the big-bang. Plus we need to find persons who knew about the different levels of light that differs on sea-levels. Persons who know about the 7 layers of air from thwe ground to the stratossphere. Persons who knew about the uniqueness of the fingerprint, persons who knew about the pollinizing winds, persons who knew a lot on sociology, persons who knew the earth is egg-shaped and not just round, persons who knew about that black holes penetrate the space-time field, persons who knew............ should i go on?
Yes by all means, please put them all forth. Lets take them one by one. Embrology was known at the time, So that is a no go. The point is not level of desciption as the refference i found was written down atleast 600 years before the Quran. Do you belive that the human mind could educate itself in 600 years to a new level, on a , to them , newly discovered science?
Put forth one point at a time, with relevant verses. First we have to establish that it is not merely wishfull interpretation. Then we go at the other angles.
When you have found ALL of these persons that discovered from before 600AD and show that their writings were known in the Arabia pensila, plus give a good explanation how Muhammed knew to pick all of these out, and got them ALL right. Then we can talk further.....
Peace
No, we dont play this game. Take one point at a time, and i will show you that each was known to people at the time. Especially in india. Now, could we agree that there is a strong sign of indian presence in saudia arabia even today?
peace
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Peace Arnold,
But it is IMPOSSIBLE that they could guess the right things. I'm talking here about facts that were NOT known in the time of Muhammed, and even went AGAINST the main scientifical theories of his times.
And how do you know that such facts found by scientists 2 centuries ago were NOT known during or prior to Muhammad's time. That's why I stated Not only that, but some fools think that in those days there were no premature births, miscarriages, abortions, dead babies, etc. for their own observations, that only recent scientific studies have proven that it was not possible for Muhammad to have ever known about such things when it comes to verses 225, 4067, 7538, etc.
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Peace,
People all over the earth experience those same things, but all of them never came to these conclusions. Plus, no premature births, miscarriages, abortions, dead babies, etc.. doesn't give a precise order, as there are things mentioned that were impossible for them to observe. These are only a few facts which ALL were proven right, together with all the other facts, you have a list that cannot be ignored.... This argument is not good enough and is based on guesses as nowhere on earth did people make the same observations as you claim are so easy to make....
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Peace,
People all over the earth experience those same things, but all of them never came to these conclusions. Plus, no premature births, miscarriages, abortions, dead babies, etc.. doesn't give a precise order, as there are things mentioned that were impossible for them to observe.
Such as? Please state Quranic verses that mentions the embryology. Thanks.
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Peace,
People all over the earth experience those same things, but all of them never came to these conclusions. Plus, no premature births, miscarriages, abortions, dead babies, etc.. doesn't give a precise order, as there are things mentioned that were impossible for them to observe. These are only a few facts which ALL were proven right, together with all the other facts, you have a list that cannot be ignored.... This argument is not good enough and is based on guesses as nowhere on earth did people make the same observations as you claim are so easy to make....
thats all good brother, but it wasnt the question. Im sure truth stands on its own, in fact, i know it does. Lets just take it one point at the time, in the above mentioned way.
You claim some things was impossible to observe, lets take those one at a time, take your pick. however?Ancient Indian theories lacked an empirical base, but they were brilliant imaginative explanations of the physical structure of the world, and in a large measure, agreed with the discoveries of modern physics. ?
- A.L. Basham, Australian Indologist
peace
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Peace,
The first phases of the development of the foetus. You have to have a lot of premature births that exactly happen during different time-phases of the pregnancy to give you a good clue of the order and differences in the phases. This is highly unlikely to occur in a time span for them to write it down in the Quran, plus, get ALL the observations right...
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Peace,
People all over the earth experience those same things, but all of them never came to these conclusions. Plus, no premature births, miscarriages, abortions, dead babies, etc.. doesn't give a precise order, as there are things mentioned that were impossible for them to observe. These are only a few facts which ALL were proven right, together with all the other facts, you have a list that cannot be ignored.... This argument is not good enough and is based on guesses as nowhere on earth did people make the same observations as you claim are so easy to make....
thats all good brother, but it wasnt the question. Im sure truth stands on its own, in fact, i know it does. Lets just take it one point at the time, in the above mentioned way.
You claim some things was impossible to observe, lets take those one at a time, take your pick. howeverAncient Indian theories lacked an empirical base, but they were brilliant imaginative explanations of the physical structure of the world, and in a large measure, agreed with the discoveries of modern physics.
- A.L. Basham, Australian Indologist
peace
Yes i know, but let's see if all of these were known in the time of India....
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Plus you have to answer how come NONE of these facts were known and written in the ahdith and ONLY in the Quran, as you claim them to be normal knwoledge of these times, plus that a lot of the ancients had a lot of things correct, but to put them together in one book and have them ALL correct? They should have played at a casino, because then they had some special luck, plus a lot of facts were not known at Muhammed's time, not even in India....
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Peace,
The first phases of the development of the foetus. You have to have a lot of premature births that exactly happen during different time-phases of the pregnancy to give you a good clue of the order and differences in the phases. This is highly unlikely to occur in a time span for them to write it down in the Quran, plus, get ALL the observations right...
Ok lets start here then. Bring forth the relevant verses. You have set as a rule for debate that whomever people i refer to, must have been known in arabia, and as such India is a good choice, it will not be my only one however. i will decide my sources as we go along.
Peace
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Peace,
Plus these people must be aware of that it is a reality of the earth, as like the Hopi Indians have references to the magnetic poles in their songs, but they didn't had a clue what it meant, only later did scientists who heard the meaning of their songs see the connection. The Indians themselves didn't knew what it meant, and so show they got it from their ancestors without knowing the meaning. The Quran put them forth as evidences, as truths that are proof of the divinity, so the person who wrote the Quran had not only knowledge about what he wrote but also confidence it is truth. Plus we have to explain how there are only truths and not one statement wrong.
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Peace,
The first phases of the development of the foetus. You have to have a lot of premature births that exactly happen during different time-phases of the pregnancy to give you a good clue of the order and differences in the phases. This is highly unlikely to occur in a time span for them to write it down in the Quran, plus, get ALL the observations right...
Ok lets start here then. Bring forth the relevant verses. You have set as a rule for debate that whomever people i refer to, must have been known in arabia, and as such India is a good choice, it will not be my only one however. i will decide my sources as we go along.
Peace
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It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out as a child then lets you reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom.
Arnold, what is it in the above verse that one couldn't have observed a sperm to premature/miscarriage/abortion (leech like clots) to birth or dead babies to child to adult to aging, even long before Muhammad's time, which today you think it couldn't have been guesswork but divine intervention, hence deliberating and confessing the divinity of Quran? Is that your motive?
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peace,
The rule is also what i gave above. Ok i will post things, and then let's see what you can come up with. I gave you the link of a book by maurice bucaille, start with refuting all those proofs he gave....
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peace,
The rule is also what i gave above. Ok i will post things, and then let's see what you can come up with. I gave you the link of a book by maurice bucaille, start with refuting all those proofs he gave....
No i will not, but he is welcome to join the debate,. One point at a time please. And the rule above is nonsensical, i will not accept it, because you dont know for a fact that e.g the hopis didnt understand their songs and their meanings. The arabs, didnt know what much of this meant back then either, but someone in their comunity did. The discusion of whether the book can contain so many known facts is better kept for later. First each of these points on their own. Then when we have the amount we can agree is valid, it is my assignment to find a simialr scripture with the same amount or more facts in it, dating before or at the same time.
Peace
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Peace,
You have to accept the rule as the author of the Quran presented the facts as proofs, so the author knew what they meant. And the Hopi's did not understand as i read books about them by Hopi's written themselves, where they say this. If the people didn't knew what it meant, then it cannot be taken as proof, it must be a known scientifical theory the people had, as it is also presented in the Quran. Also i didn't invite anybody. But to give you time, i'm not gonna give you any facts. You yourself go to Harun Yahya's site and refute the books there. As i'm not into a cut and paste debate. I don't have time for that. All the info is avaible on the web. I gave a link to one book already on this forum, it is with my first post on this thread. Go refute the facts in that article. Also go to
http//asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/
http//www.miraclesofthequran.com/index2.html
http//www.muhammedhasenoglu.com/miracles_quran.htm
http//www.mucizeler.com/
http//home.swipnet.se/islam/quran-bible.htm
http//www.harunyahya.com/
Go refute these facts one by one. have fun. i'll be checking on your progress....
Peace