Question about ..
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first in it is "ithmun kabeerun"...an indulger in alochol would be an indulger in "ithmun kabeerun"!
not necessarily "good usage"....maybe plain usage! -)
second in it is also "manafioo linnasay" (benefit for people)...an indulger in alcohol would be an indulger in "manaf" (benefit/good/use/advantage). You are attempting to stress upon one half of the verse while neglecting the other.
how is alcohol beneficial? -)
medicinal (pharmaceutical, coronary/urinary, surgery), food/confectionaries (taste), stress/pain/mood (cuts, bruises, body/facial clensing, relaxation), etc. and I'm sure there are many. Alcohol doesn't mean to consume just hard liquor all day long and drop dead, and certainly doesn't mean to become habitual, hence restrictive and conditional.
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Peace Bro Dan
food/confectionaries (taste)
alcohol tastes like as* yuck
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danish wrote
second in it is also "manafioo linnasay" (benefit for people)...an indulger in alcohol would be an indulger in "manaf" (benefit/good/use/advantage).nafa need not have an inherent quality of being "good"...i already pointed out "nafa" is different from "khayr"! -)
if v have an equal share (50 %) in some profit...
and u kill me/cheat me (or vice versa) so that u have all of it (the profit) to urself...u will have 100 % profit to urself....
is it "good profit" or "bad profit"! -)or say i have 100 bucks on me...
and somebody robs me...the person benefits by 100 bucks...
is that a "good benefit" or a "bad benefit"?...likewise nafa does not inherently mean "good"...."benefit/use/advantage"....yes...but u are attempting to confuse "nafa" and "good"! -)
You are attempting to stress upon one half of the verse while neglecting the other.
could u elaborate? -)
medicinal (pharmaceutical, coronary/urinary, surgery), food/confectionaries (taste), stress/pain/mood (cuts, bruises, body/facial clensing, relaxation), etc. and I'm sure there are many. Alcohol doesn't mean to consume just hard liquor all day long and drop dead, and certainly doesn't mean to become habitual, hence restrictive and conditional.
cool...not so sure about the taste part...and maybe some other too...but it can wait -)
...so how much should an individual consume to "benefit" from it...and under what conditions? -)
how is gambling or "almaysir" beneficial? -)
do u think god's assertion that these contain "ithmun kabeerun" and the following verses
590 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
591 Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer will ye not then abstain?
...are of any relevance to the issue of permission and restriction? -)
...also from where have u gathered that "restrictive and conditional" consumption is beneficial/useful....could u provide the words so that i may benefit? -)
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danish wrote
second in it is also "manafioo linnasay" (benefit for people)...an indulger in alcohol would be an indulger in "manaf" (benefit/good/use/advantage).thegod wrote
nafa need not have an inherent quality of being "good"...i already pointed out "nafa" is different from "khayr"! -)
if v have an equal share (50 %) in some profit...
and u kill me/cheat me (or vice versa) so that u have all of it (the profit) to urself...u will have 100 % profit to urself....
is it "good profit" or "bad profit"! -)or say i have 100 bucks on me...
and somebody robs me...the person benefits by 100 bucks...
is that a "good benefit" or a "bad benefit"?...likewise nafa does not inherently mean "good"...."benefit/use/advantage"....yes...but u are attempting to confuse "nafa" and "good"! -)
Boy you sure give fanciful illustrations. Strictly speaking, "nafa" means profit or gain. Anything that is received or given as profit/gain is a direct representation of being beneficial/advantageous/good/use. A profit/gain is never used in negative renderings. Cheating, robbing, killing, etc., is not a profit/gain but a "negative deed" or a "criminal act". There's no such thing as "bad profit or bad benefit".
Danish wrote You are attempting to stress upon one half of the verse while neglecting the other.
thegod wrote # could u elaborate? -)
It is simple common sense that needs no elaboration. Part of the verse stresses the "bad" side of intoxication while the other half the "good" side, although the "bad" side outweighs the "good" side. That does not conclude a prohibition. Example given below.
thegod wrote...so how much should an individual consume to "benefit" from it...and under what conditions? -)
There's no set amount or volume of consumption and conditions are circumstantial on individual cases. Knowledge, experience and maturity are the key words.
how is gambling or "almaysir" beneficial? -)
In similar respect to alcohol.
do u think god's assertion that these contain "ithmun kabeerun" and the following verses
590 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
591 Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer will ye not then abstain?
...are of any relevance to the issue of permission and restriction? -)
...also from where have u gathered that "restrictive and conditional" consumption is beneficial/useful....could u provide the words so that i may benefit? -)
First you deliberate 2219 by quoting and stressing upon half the verse and then collaborate 590/91 to conclude that intoxication and gambling are prohibited. 590/91 is weighted on the first part of 2219, not the second part. If this weren't the case, then there lies either a major contradiction or a meaningless 2219 with respect to 590/91. If I were to mention that "", does not mean that sex is altogether prohibited but is restrictive and conditional. Do you understand what I am expressing.
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danish wrote
Boy you sure give fanciful illustrations.yups grin .....let's see if it helps you understand "nafa"! -)
Strictly speaking, "nafa" means profit or gain.
u got it...i think! -)
Anything that is received or given as profit/gain is a direct representation of being beneficial/advantageous/good/use. A profit/gain is never used in negative renderings.
huh? so if u make 100 bucks by swindling somebody in a game u have not benefitted materially?
Cheating, robbing, killing, etc., is not a profit/gain but a "negative deed".
v are talking about the outcome...not the means....i hope u will understand the difference! -)
There's no such thing as "bad profit or bad benefit".
u still sound confused about "nafa"...if u clarify whether or not u undersrtand nafa v can know where u stand! -)
It is simple common sense that needs no elaboration.
in other words...its likely u cannot elaborate! -)
Part of the verse stresses the "bad" side of intoxication while the other half the "good" side,
there is no "good" side...there is only nafa...u need to do sit down and do some thinking bro! -)
although the "bad" side outweighs the "good" side.
the "ithm" outweighs the "nafa"....there is no "good" side! -)
That does not conclude a prohibition. Example given below.
There's no set amount or volume of consumption and conditions are circumstantial on individual cases. Knowledge, experience and maturity are the key words.
in other words u have no idea of what a recommended consumption is...and u are suggesting people should drink and gamble till they find the right quantity! -)
In similar respect to alcohol.
taste? medicine? ..? ...? -)
First you deliberate 2219 by quoting and stressing upon half the verse...
"ithmun kabeerun" are 2 words...not "half the verse"....u need to be more accurate when saying things! -)
...second i didnt quote the verse.....i only said in it is "ithmun kabeerun"...to highlight it's nature! -)
and then collaborate 590/91 to conclude that intoxication and gambling are prohibited.
i have "concluded" nothing...i asked ur opinion....again....accuracy found wanting! -)
.....as for 590-91, they are related...but if u wish u can express ur opinion for the verses seperately! -)
....i will be waiting for ur opinion! -)
If I were to mention that "" does not mean that sex is altogether prohibited but is restrictive and conditional.
sex, rape, causual........has benefits, love, marriage..?...?....-S
...sex follows marriage...not the other way round....again, u need to read what u are typing bro! -)
again...god does not say in marriage is "ithmun kabeerun"
Do you understand what I am expressing.
no...and if u read it, i aint sure if u will either! -)
besides, u forgot to respond to
...also from where have u gathered that "restrictive and conditional" consumption is beneficial/useful....could u provide the words so that i may benefit? -)
...could u provide the words which give u the idea of right and wrong amounts of gambling and alochol! -)
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Peace,
Brother Nabi used a great example of intoxication (in a past thread).
Take the sport of football (soccer for the americans). In some countries, the SPORT is treated like a religion. There have been many fights, unruly mobs, riots, stabbings, shootings, killings, etc, etc, etc becuase of the intoxication of passion for a sporting team.
As well as the System, if you intoxicate yourself with the System it is not good for you, it is harmful for you. Take a look at the orthodox sects of different religions (around the world), they go into complete intoxication\abuse of their religious systems. And this leads to a clouded, dark path. A path that has no rationality or logic to it.
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yups grin .....let's see if it helps you understand "nafa"! -)
u got it...i think! -)
Plain silly with a thinkpad.
huh? so if u make 100 bucks by swindling somebody in a game u have not benefitted materially?
Talk about swindling, cheating, killing, robbing, by fradulent means and call it "negative profit/benefit". rotfl
v are talking about the outcome...not the means....i hope u will understand the difference! -)
There's no outcome without a mean. You need a resident (mean), residence (item) and residue (outcome) to understand any given situation. Can't jump to an effect without a cause and call it quits.
u still sound confused about "nafa"...if u clarify whether or not u undersrtand nafa v can know where u stand! -)
It has been already clarified and more so in this post. You are confused about the entire verse along with others, not just the word and can't seem to understand simple things.
in other words...its likely u cannot elaborate! -)
Enough elaboration is already done and more given here, yet sadistically unsatisfied.
there is no "good" side...there is only nafa...u need to do sit down and do some thinking bro! -)
Nafa IS "good".
the "ithm" outweighs the "nafa"....there is no "good" side! -)
Rubbish! Outweigh simply means outperform, outnumber, more or better than, etc. A simple scenario would be a sea-saw in which a fat person would outweigh a thin person and thus rise UP but that doesn't mean that the thin person has no weight. Another example would be a pool of water far outweighs a glass of water. Gee man, you really are having a hard time understanding simple things now.
in other words u have no idea of what a recommended consumption is...and u are suggesting people should drink and gamble till they find the right quantity! -)
taste? medicine? ..? ...? -)
Once again you are having trouble in understanding and making presumptuous and twisted counters.
"ithmun kabeerun" are 2 words...not "half the verse"....u need to be more accurate when saying things! -)
...second i didnt quote the verse.....i only said in it is "ithmun kabeerun"...to highlight it's nature! -)
You need to understand the context of the entire verse in which those words speak.
sex, rape, causual........has benefits, love, marriage..?...?....-S
...sex follows marriage...not the other way round....again, u need to read what u are typing bro! -)
confused
again...god does not say in marriage is "ithmun kabeerun"
Alcohol is what is being discussed and the marriage part was an example. Plain and simple.
besides, u forgot to respond to
...also from where have u gathered that "restrictive and conditional" consumption is beneficial/useful....could u provide the words so that i may benefit? -)
...could u provide the words which give u the idea of right and wrong amounts of gambling and alochol! -)
I gathered that info from Santa Claus who went to Miraj on a flying reindeer and brought back some goodies to give it to ya.
al-Baqarah 002219
2219Transliteration Yas-aloonaka AAani alkhamri waalmaysiri qul feehima ithmun kabeerun wamanafiAAu lilnnasi wa-ithmuhuma akbaru min nafAAihima wayas-aloonaka matha yunfiqoona quli alAAafwa kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakum tatafakkaroona
Literal They ask/question you about the intoxicants/substances affecting the brain and the gambling , say "In them (B) (is a) great sin/crime and benefits/uses to the people and their (B's) sin/crime (is) bigger/greater from (than) their (B's) benefit/use, and they ask/question you what they (should) spend, say "The excess over expense/goodness ." Like that God clarifies for you the signs/verses/evidences, maybe you think.
Yusuf Ali They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs In order that ye may consider-
Pickthal They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.
Arberry They will question thee concerning wine, and arrow-shuffling. Say 'In both is heinous sin; and uses for men, but the sin in them is more heinous than the usefulness.' They will question thee concerning what they should expend. Say 'The abundance.' So God makes clear His signs to you; haply you will reflect;
Shakir They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder
Sarwar (Muhammad) they ask you about wine and gambling. Tell them that there is great sin in them. Although they have benefits for men, the sin therein is far greater than the benefit. They ask you about what they should give for the cause of God. Tell them, "Let it be what you can spare." This is how God explains for you His guidance so that perhaps you will think
Khalifa They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,
Hilali/Khan They ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say "That which is beyond your needs." Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought."
H/K/Saheeh They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess ." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses that you might give thought.
Malik They ask you about drinking and gambling. Tell them "There is great sin in both, although they may have some benefit for men; but the sin is greater than the benefit." They ask you what they should spend; tell them "Whatever you can." Thus Allah makes His revelations clear to you, so that you may reflect upon
QXP They ask you (O Messenger), concerning alcohol, intoxicants, gambling, and easy money. Say, "There is great loss for men and women in these things and a little momentary gain. Their damage far outweighs their benefit. They drag down individual and collective potentials of people." And they ask you what they should spend on others. Tell them, "All that is beyond your needs." Thus Allah makes plain to you His Revelations, that you may reflect and understand the Wisdom behind each Command.
Maulana Ali They ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say In both of them is a great sin and (some) advantage for men, and their sin is greater than their advantage. And they ask thee as to what they should spend. Say What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the messages that you may ponder,
Free Minds They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much are they to give, Say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
Qaribullah They ask you about intoxicating drink and gambling. Say 'There is great sin in both, although they have some benefit for people; but their sin is far greater than their benefit. ' They ask you what they should spend. Say 'That which remains. ' So, Allah makes plain to you His verses, in order that you will reflect
George Sale They will ask thee concerning wine and lots Answer, in both there is great sin, and also some things of use unto men; but there sinfulness is greater than their use. They will ask thee also what they shall bestow in alms Answer, what ye have to spare. Thus God sheweth his signs unto you, that peradventure ye might seriously think
JM Rodwell They will ask thee concerning wine and games of chance. SAY In both is great sin, and advantage also, to men; but their sin is greater than their advantage. They will ask thee also what they shall bestow in alms SAY What ye can spare. Thus God sheweth yAsad THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend . Say "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect
Clear as daylight. There are two parts concerning intoxicants and gambling the "worst part" and the "good part" ? there?s no ifs, buts and ands. The words used for ?nafa? are benefit, profit, utility, usefulness, gain, advantage and use (all connote the same meaning). Verses 590 and 591 support the first part in question, NOT the second, else there is major contradiction. Now, the all-deluded ?thegod (rotfl? can dwindle, swindle and twinkle all he wants. CASE CLOSED.
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danish wrote
Plain silly with a thinkpad.to ur creditthat doesnt make any less sense than anything else u have said so far! -)
Talk about swindling, cheating, killing, robbing, by fradulent means and call it "negative profit/benefit".
if u rob somebody of a 100 bucks..do u stand to gain monetarily?
just answer yes or noif u are able! -)
There's no outcome without a mean. You need a resident (mean), residence (item) and residue (outcome) to understand any given situation. Can't jump to an effect without a cause and call it quits.
if u rob somebody of a 100 bucks..do u stand to gain monetarily?
just answer yes or noif u are able! -)
It has been already clarified and more so in this post. You are confused about the entire verse along with others, not just the word and can't seem to understand simple things.
if u rob somebody of a 100 bucks..do u stand to gain monetarily?
just answer yes or noif u are able! -)
gotta know if u understand that which u are trying so hard to discuss! -)
Enough elaboration is already done and more given here, yet sadistically unsatisfied.
hmmmwhining doesnt exactly count as elaborationso u need to try again! -)
Nafa IS "good".
v have seen that if a thief benefits by thieving..it is still a monetary benefit!
...so ur insistence shows no inclination towards understanding the subject matter! -)
Rubbish! Outweigh simply means outperform, outnumber, more or better than, etc.
i only pointed out that nafa need not be gooduse is better...the rest was ur own proposition! -)
dont mindbut do u read ur own post before posting? -)
A simple scenario would be a sea-saw in which a fat person would outweigh a thin person and thus rise UP
the fat person would rise up? loolz
that would be a novelty! grin
but that doesn't mean that the thin person has no weight.
.perhaps the raised up fat person would respond to that! grin
Another example would be a pool of water far outweighs a glass of water.
..so u are comparing pool of water and glass of water with ithm and nafa -S
Gee man, you really are having a hard time understanding simple things now.
yeahand like i said, if u read what u writeu will understand why!
Once again you are having trouble in understanding and making presumptuous and twisted counters.
u stated medicine, taste,.....as benefits of alochol.
and said likewise for gambling.so dunno what else remained to presume!
..stillgo ahead and elaborate how gambling is beneficial!
You need to understand the context of the entire verse in which those words speak.
so u so realise u wrongly said that I quoted half the verse..dont u?...thats a start.but an admission remains!
Alcohol is what is being discussed and the marriage part was an example. Plain and simple.
so what did u give the example for?....that too one that made no sense! -S
..trying to hard...i think! -)
I gathered that info from Santa Claus who went to Miraj on a flying reindeer and brought back some goodies to give it to ya.
so where is this miraj situated, which ur santa went to?
al-Baqarah 002219
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Asad THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend . Say "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect
Clear as daylight. There are two parts concerning intoxicants and gambling the "worst part" and the "good part" theres no ifs, buts and ands.
u ll have to get back to the drawing board bro there is no good part.there is only nafa...and as shown...somebody can have a temporary monetary benefit even from thieving...all those fancy illustrations dont see to have helped u! -(
The words used for nafa are benefit, profit, utility, usefulness, gain, advantage and use (all connote the same meaning). Verses 590 and 591 support the first part in question, NOT the second, else there is major contradiction. Now, the all-deluded thegod () can dwindle, swindle and twinkle all he wants.
when u are done with rolling on the flooru might want to gather urself and make an attempt at thinking! -)
..and whining and slandering wouldnt help u in doing that! -)
CASE CLOSED.
u triedthats the important part..keep at itwho knows someday-)
and yes...again...the words which tell u that the verse has anything to do with the quantity of consumption! -)
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There is no problems with eating pork as well as far as many believe
the bottom line that it was an order from Allah to avoid Al Khamr, period,
those who want to argue can easily take their argument with them on the JD
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Ithim is Haram
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Khamr is Ithim Kabir
Therefore a child will know that from 1 & 2 above
Khamr is Haram. period
Salam
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i'd say you can eat candy or any other food with alcohol in it
as long as you don't get intoxicated.
and there's no chance of getting intoxicated when eating alcohol flavored food
but if there is a chance of getting intoxicated, like when drinking wine or hard liquor why drink it? why not just simply drink something else?there are so many other drinks out there, why would you even approach something that could get you intoxicated and that has been said to be satan's work?
sure small amounts do not harm you but in many cases it leads to big amounts, before you know it you're drunk. look at all broken families and car accidents and people losing their jobs and health... all result of alcohol consumption.
i guess for medical reasons it's okay to use alcohol if it's to help you become healthy, but other then that, i'd stay away from it.
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Salam,
I have to go with the
alcohol is permittedcamp for some obvious analysis reasons- Nowhere does God forbid alcohol outright (see pig meat, blood, etc. for comparison).
- God informs us that Salat is not to be approached while intoxiacted. This nullifies the
haramargument in its infancy. - God tells us heaven will have rivers of alcohol as well as milk and honey. This again nullifies the
haramargument as no pig or blood or any otherharamelements are made available. - The verse used most to outlaw alcohol speaks of the
deviland that he should be avoided (not the alcohol). - The
ithmargument being presented is not valid as the verse clearly says fihimaIthm( in them is Ithm) and not they are Ithm. Thus, alcohol in itself is notIthmbut may be used in a way that produces theIthm(which is in-line with the previous point that the devil uses these tools against people).
Cleary alcohol is not haram and the only restriction found in the Quran is to avoid making Salat if intoxicated. Other than that, people shoudl be careful from alcohol in general as it is a tool (as well as gambling) that the devil uses to cause people to commit Ithm/wrong.
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Peace Bro Layth
I follow your rationale until the last part. How does one "be careful" with alcohol? Please elaborate
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Salam All
I believe there are a few big sins that were not forbidden out right yet they are haram like Qawl Al Zoor for example
Just my 2 cents
I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania
Cheers
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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~
Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald
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I like liquor - its taste and its effects - and that is just the reason why I never drink it.
Thomas Jackson
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Peace,
I follow your rationale until the last part. How does one \"be careful\" with alcohol? Please elaborate
Since we are told that it is one of the tools the devil likes to intice people through, then it follows that we should be
carefulwhen dealing with alcohol or gambling (i.e. that it can be destructive or that it can be harmful if used to exccess or used wrongly). -
I like this one
Remember "I" before "E," except in Budweiser.
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Salam,
I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania
Actually, it is forbidden.
Zina is called a
fahishain 1732
Allfawahishare forbidden as per 6151. -
PEeace
Actually, it is forbidden.
Zina is called a
fahishain 1732
Allfawahishare forbidden as per 6151.But doesn't this parallel Sis Myr's explanation of alcohol being forbidden?
Since we are told that it is one of the tools the devil likes to intice people through, then it follows that we should be
carefulwhen dealing with alcohol or gambling (i.e. that it can be destructive or that it can be harmful if used to exccess or used wrongly).Now we get into a grey area. Which is fine because I don't believe the God wanted us to be robots. But how do we know what our "excess" level is? Does the God condone us experimenting until we figure it out? For example, a few sips for me makes me feel funny, whereas the person next to me can have a few whole drinks before he feels funny... At what point have we wronged our souls?
