Question about ..

unknownuser

yups grin .....let's see if it helps you understand "nafa"! -)

u got it...i think! -)

Plain silly with a thinkpad.

huh? so if u make 100 bucks by swindling somebody in a game u have not benefitted materially?

Talk about swindling, cheating, killing, robbing, by fradulent means and call it "negative profit/benefit". rotfl

v are talking about the outcome...not the means....i hope u will understand the difference! -)

There's no outcome without a mean. You need a resident (mean), residence (item) and residue (outcome) to understand any given situation. Can't jump to an effect without a cause and call it quits.

u still sound confused about "nafa"...if u clarify whether or not u undersrtand nafa v can know where u stand! -)

It has been already clarified and more so in this post. You are confused about the entire verse along with others, not just the word and can't seem to understand simple things.

in other words...its likely u cannot elaborate! -)

Enough elaboration is already done and more given here, yet sadistically unsatisfied.

there is no "good" side...there is only nafa...u need to do sit down and do some thinking bro! -)

Nafa IS "good".

the "ithm" outweighs the "nafa"....there is no "good" side! -)

Rubbish! Outweigh simply means outperform, outnumber, more or better than, etc. A simple scenario would be a sea-saw in which a fat person would outweigh a thin person and thus rise UP but that doesn't mean that the thin person has no weight. Another example would be a pool of water far outweighs a glass of water. Gee man, you really are having a hard time understanding simple things now.

in other words u have no idea of what a recommended consumption is...and u are suggesting people should drink and gamble till they find the right quantity! -)

taste? medicine? ..? ...? -)

Once again you are having trouble in understanding and making presumptuous and twisted counters.

"ithmun kabeerun" are 2 words...not "half the verse"....u need to be more accurate when saying things! -)

...second i didnt quote the verse.....i only said in it is "ithmun kabeerun"...to highlight it's nature! -)

You need to understand the context of the entire verse in which those words speak.

sex, rape, causual........has benefits, love, marriage..?...?....-S

...sex follows marriage...not the other way round....again, u need to read what u are typing bro! -)

confused

again...god does not say in marriage is "ithmun kabeerun"

Alcohol is what is being discussed and the marriage part was an example. Plain and simple.

besides, u forgot to respond to

...also from where have u gathered that "restrictive and conditional" consumption is beneficial/useful....could u provide the words so that i may benefit? -)

...could u provide the words which give u the idea of right and wrong amounts of gambling and alochol! -)

I gathered that info from Santa Claus who went to Miraj on a flying reindeer and brought back some goodies to give it to ya.

al-Baqarah 002219
2219

Transliteration Yas-aloonaka AAani alkhamri waalmaysiri qul feehima ithmun kabeerun wamanafiAAu lilnnasi wa-ithmuhuma akbaru min nafAAihima wayas-aloonaka matha yunfiqoona quli alAAafwa kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakum tatafakkaroona

Literal They ask/question you about the intoxicants/substances affecting the brain and the gambling , say "In them (B) (is a) great sin/crime and benefits/uses to the people and their (B's) sin/crime (is) bigger/greater from (than) their (B's) benefit/use, and they ask/question you what they (should) spend, say "The excess over expense/goodness ." Like that God clarifies for you the signs/verses/evidences, maybe you think.

Yusuf Ali They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs In order that ye may consider-

Pickthal They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.

Arberry They will question thee concerning wine, and arrow-shuffling. Say 'In both is heinous sin; and uses for men, but the sin in them is more heinous than the usefulness.' They will question thee concerning what they should expend. Say 'The abundance.' So God makes clear His signs to you; haply you will reflect;

Shakir They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

Sarwar (Muhammad) they ask you about wine and gambling. Tell them that there is great sin in them. Although they have benefits for men, the sin therein is far greater than the benefit. They ask you about what they should give for the cause of God. Tell them, "Let it be what you can spare." This is how God explains for you His guidance so that perhaps you will think

Khalifa They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

Hilali/Khan They ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say "That which is beyond your needs." Thus Allah makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought."

H/K/Saheeh They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess ." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses that you might give thought.

Malik They ask you about drinking and gambling. Tell them "There is great sin in both, although they may have some benefit for men; but the sin is greater than the benefit." They ask you what they should spend; tell them "Whatever you can." Thus Allah makes His revelations clear to you, so that you may reflect upon

QXP They ask you (O Messenger), concerning alcohol, intoxicants, gambling, and easy money. Say, "There is great loss for men and women in these things and a little momentary gain. Their damage far outweighs their benefit. They drag down individual and collective potentials of people." And they ask you what they should spend on others. Tell them, "All that is beyond your needs." Thus Allah makes plain to you His Revelations, that you may reflect and understand the Wisdom behind each Command.

Maulana Ali They ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say In both of them is a great sin and (some) advantage for men, and their sin is greater than their advantage. And they ask thee as to what they should spend. Say What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the messages that you may ponder,

Free Minds They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much are they to give, Say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

Qaribullah They ask you about intoxicating drink and gambling. Say 'There is great sin in both, although they have some benefit for people; but their sin is far greater than their benefit. ' They ask you what they should spend. Say 'That which remains. ' So, Allah makes plain to you His verses, in order that you will reflect

George Sale They will ask thee concerning wine and lots Answer, in both there is great sin, and also some things of use unto men; but there sinfulness is greater than their use. They will ask thee also what they shall bestow in alms Answer, what ye have to spare. Thus God sheweth his signs unto you, that peradventure ye might seriously think
JM Rodwell They will ask thee concerning wine and games of chance. SAY In both is great sin, and advantage also, to men; but their sin is greater than their advantage. They will ask thee also what they shall bestow in alms SAY What ye can spare. Thus God sheweth y

Asad THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend . Say "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect

Clear as daylight. There are two parts concerning intoxicants and gambling the "worst part" and the "good part" ? there?s no ifs, buts and ands. The words used for ?nafa? are benefit, profit, utility, usefulness, gain, advantage and use (all connote the same meaning). Verses 590 and 591 support the first part in question, NOT the second, else there is major contradiction. Now, the all-deluded ?thegod (rotfl? can dwindle, swindle and twinkle all he wants. CASE CLOSED.

thegod

danish wrote
Plain silly with a thinkpad.

to ur creditthat doesnt make any less sense than anything else u have said so far! -)

Talk about swindling, cheating, killing, robbing, by fradulent means and call it "negative profit/benefit".

if u rob somebody of a 100 bucks..do u stand to gain monetarily?

just answer yes or noif u are able! -)

There's no outcome without a mean. You need a resident (mean), residence (item) and residue (outcome) to understand any given situation. Can't jump to an effect without a cause and call it quits.

if u rob somebody of a 100 bucks..do u stand to gain monetarily?

just answer yes or noif u are able! -)

It has been already clarified and more so in this post. You are confused about the entire verse along with others, not just the word and can't seem to understand simple things.

if u rob somebody of a 100 bucks..do u stand to gain monetarily?

just answer yes or noif u are able! -)

gotta know if u understand that which u are trying so hard to discuss! -)

Enough elaboration is already done and more given here, yet sadistically unsatisfied.

hmmmwhining doesnt exactly count as elaborationso u need to try again! -)

Nafa IS "good".

v have seen that if a thief benefits by thieving..it is still a monetary benefit!

...so ur insistence shows no inclination towards understanding the subject matter! -)

Rubbish! Outweigh simply means outperform, outnumber, more or better than, etc.

i only pointed out that nafa need not be gooduse is better...the rest was ur own proposition! -)

dont mindbut do u read ur own post before posting? -)

A simple scenario would be a sea-saw in which a fat person would outweigh a thin person and thus rise UP

the fat person would rise up? loolz

that would be a novelty! grin

but that doesn't mean that the thin person has no weight.

.perhaps the raised up fat person would respond to that! grin

Another example would be a pool of water far outweighs a glass of water.

..so u are comparing pool of water and glass of water with ithm and nafa -S

Gee man, you really are having a hard time understanding simple things now.

yeahand like i said, if u read what u writeu will understand why!

Once again you are having trouble in understanding and making presumptuous and twisted counters.

u stated medicine, taste,.....as benefits of alochol.

and said likewise for gambling.so dunno what else remained to presume!

..stillgo ahead and elaborate how gambling is beneficial!

You need to understand the context of the entire verse in which those words speak.

so u so realise u wrongly said that I quoted half the verse..dont u?...thats a start.but an admission remains!

Alcohol is what is being discussed and the marriage part was an example. Plain and simple.

so what did u give the example for?....that too one that made no sense! -S

..trying to hard...i think! -)

I gathered that info from Santa Claus who went to Miraj on a flying reindeer and brought back some goodies to give it to ya.

so where is this miraj situated, which ur santa went to?

al-Baqarah 002219

...

Asad THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend . Say "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect

Clear as daylight. There are two parts concerning intoxicants and gambling the "worst part" and the "good part" theres no ifs, buts and ands.

u ll have to get back to the drawing board bro there is no good part.there is only nafa...and as shown...somebody can have a temporary monetary benefit even from thieving...all those fancy illustrations dont see to have helped u! -(

The words used for nafa are benefit, profit, utility, usefulness, gain, advantage and use (all connote the same meaning). Verses 590 and 591 support the first part in question, NOT the second, else there is major contradiction. Now, the all-deluded thegod () can dwindle, swindle and twinkle all he wants.

when u are done with rolling on the flooru might want to gather urself and make an attempt at thinking! -)

..and whining and slandering wouldnt help u in doing that! -)

CASE CLOSED.

u triedthats the important part..keep at itwho knows someday-)

and yes...again...the words which tell u that the verse has anything to do with the quantity of consumption! -)

Dion

2173; 53; 6145...
Why alcohol is not mentioned here, stricktly as prohibited? Alcohol may fall under category of food, right?
If you eat a alcohol flavored candy you wont get drunk, so where is the problem with alcohol here????

unknownuser

There is no problems with eating pork as well as far as many believe

the bottom line that it was an order from Allah to avoid Al Khamr, period,

those who want to argue can easily take their argument with them on the JD

Ithim is Haram
Khamr is Ithim Kabir

Therefore a child will know that from 1 & 2 above

Khamr is Haram. period

Salam

nerspi

i'd say you can eat candy or any other food with alcohol in it
as long as you don't get intoxicated.
and there's no chance of getting intoxicated when eating alcohol flavored food
but if there is a chance of getting intoxicated, like when drinking wine or hard liquor why drink it? why not just simply drink something else?

there are so many other drinks out there, why would you even approach something that could get you intoxicated and that has been said to be satan's work?

sure small amounts do not harm you but in many cases it leads to big amounts, before you know it you're drunk. look at all broken families and car accidents and people losing their jobs and health... all result of alcohol consumption.

i guess for medical reasons it's okay to use alcohol if it's to help you become healthy, but other then that, i'd stay away from it.

Layth

Salam,

I have to go with the alcohol is permitted camp for some obvious analysis reasons

Nowhere does God forbid alcohol outright (see pig meat, blood, etc. for comparison).
God informs us that Salat is not to be approached while intoxiacted. This nullifies the haram argument in its infancy.
God tells us heaven will have rivers of alcohol as well as milk and honey. This again nullifies the haram argument as no pig or blood or any other haram elements are made available.
The verse used most to outlaw alcohol speaks of the devil and that he should be avoided (not the alcohol).
The ithm argument being presented is not valid as the verse clearly says fihima Ithm ( in them is Ithm) and not they are Ithm. Thus, alcohol in itself is not Ithm but may be used in a way that produces the Ithm (which is in-line with the previous point that the devil uses these tools against people).

Cleary alcohol is not haram and the only restriction found in the Quran is to avoid making Salat if intoxicated. Other than that, people shoudl be careful from alcohol in general as it is a tool (as well as gambling) that the devil uses to cause people to commit Ithm/wrong.

unknownuser

Peace Bro Layth

I follow your rationale until the last part. How does one "be careful" with alcohol? Please elaborate

unknownuser

Salam All

I believe there are a few big sins that were not forbidden out right yet they are haram like Qawl Al Zoor for example

Just my 2 cents

I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania

Cheers

unknownuser

First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~

Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald

unknownuser

I like liquor - its taste and its effects - and that is just the reason why I never drink it.

Thomas Jackson

Layth

Peace,

I follow your rationale until the last part. How does one \"be careful\" with alcohol? Please elaborate

Since we are told that it is one of the tools the devil likes to intice people through, then it follows that we should be careful when dealing with alcohol or gambling (i.e. that it can be destructive or that it can be harmful if used to exccess or used wrongly).

unknownuser

I like this one

Remember "I" before "E," except in Budweiser.

Layth

Salam,

I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania

Actually, it is forbidden.

Zina is called a fahisha in 1732
All fawahish are forbidden as per 6151.

unknownuser

PEeace

Actually, it is forbidden.

Zina is called a fahisha in 1732
All fawahish are forbidden as per 6151.

But doesn't this parallel Sis Myr's explanation of alcohol being forbidden?

Since we are told that it is one of the tools the devil likes to intice people through, then it follows that we should be careful when dealing with alcohol or gambling (i.e. that it can be destructive or that it can be harmful if used to exccess or used wrongly).

Now we get into a grey area. Which is fine because I don't believe the God wanted us to be robots. But how do we know what our "excess" level is? Does the God condone us experimenting until we figure it out? For example, a few sips for me makes me feel funny, whereas the person next to me can have a few whole drinks before he feels funny... At what point have we wronged our souls?

unknownuser

Hello all,

I have to go with the alcohol is permitted camp for some obvious analysis reasons

Nowhere does God forbid alcohol outright (see pig meat, blood, etc. for comparison).
God informs us that Salat is not to be approached while intoxiacted. This nullifies the haram argument in its infancy.
God tells us heaven will have rivers of alcohol as well as milk and honey. This again nullifies the haram argument as no pig or blood or any other haram elements are made available.
The verse used most to outlaw alcohol speaks of the devil and that he should be avoided (not the alcohol).
The ithm argument being presented is not valid as the verse clearly says fihima Ithm ( in them is Ithm) and not they are Ithm. Thus, alcohol in itself is not Ithm but may be used in a way that produces the Ithm (which is in-line with the previous point that the devil uses these tools against people).

Cleary alcohol is not haram and the only restriction found in the Quran is to avoid making Salat if intoxicated. Other than that, people shoudl be careful from alcohol in general as it is a tool (as well as gambling) that the devil uses to cause people to commit Ithm/wrong.

Taking into consideration all of Layth's strong points mentioned above as positive and analytical, I must emphasize that the strongest and most clearest point yet, lies within the verse 2219 itself, where the disadvantage of intoxication and games of chance outweighs its advantage point in comparison. What can be more straightforward and clearer than this, yet many argue baselessly and start drivelling and twisting around.

If people are not comfortable with alcohol consumption of any sort in any way, then simply stay away from everything concerning alcohol, which would be rather difficult in the first place. And that is applicable to just about anything by reason, not treason. Those who drink excessively and thus endangering themselves and others must slow down, limit themselves and use caution. Most important factors relies upon individual's conditional and environmental preferences, such as age, health, social outfit, tolerance, allowance, etc. and above all, the law of the land. Afterall what's the point in emphasizing the use of mind, eyes and ears.

The same concept applies to driving a car for example, where people must drive within speed limits, obey state laws and use caution rather than driving irrationally and at high speeds endangering themselves and others. Invariably, it also applies to sex on similar context and all other merits where some, it not all, benefit is administered or applied. Certain notions are very basic and doesn't necessarily require use of books (especially "holy ones&quot to create unecessary lengthy discussions, stress and disharmony. Books are creation of men sorted by these very actions as witnessed and reasoned.

thegod

ahmedbahgat wrote
I believe there are a few big sins that were not forbidden out right yet they are haram like Qawl Al Zoor for example

Just my 2 cents

I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania

i have not yet found in the quran that the human flesh has been made "haram"...giving others ideas! idea grin

however, i believe the odds are excessively against intoxicants....and i have to say it was dion's post which shed a lot of light for me in this matter! -)

ammarb87

I also feel that DION's argument holds the most strength! It makes sense and is straight-forward!

thegod

ammarb87 wrote
I also feel that DION's argument holds the most strength! It makes sense and is straight-forward!

just a while back i was thinking of asking u whether the discussion so far has made any impact on u...... -)

Alen

Salam.

Alcohol.
Oh My GOD!
How many times do we have to talk about this?
I mean, it's alcohol.
It costs lots of money, it stinks, it causes dizziniess, it causes car accidents, women get beaten ver yoften when alcohol is involved. My neighbor was married to a husband who was beating her always when he was drunk. She had to move to another town and divorce him in order to live a life without any pain.

See, money is very hard to get. Once i get the money, AlhamdilAllah, AlhamdilAllah, i like to spend it in a way that i feel feel the consequences for a long time. See, when i wanna spend the cash and feel the consequences for a long time, i like to order the duck from Chinese restaurant because i feel good and full even the next day.

Alcohol just makes you drunk, you smell really, really bad and as a result, you end up apologizing to someone for causing something stupid, you find iout what that stupid is the next day.

Peace.

unknownuser

PEace Alen

you've just perfectly explained the very verse we've been trying to understand. Alcohol leads to no good. its pretty obvious and i really doubt any non-muslim who doesn't have a verse to try and figure out would tell us otherwise. its just common fact. its just because we have this verse that makes us different that all of a sudden our senses are out the door and alcohol becomes the next best thing since american cheese...

its not forbidden as in haram but for the love of all that's holy seriously i think we can go without drinking that which you couldn't even PRAY with! and if we don't take the traditional sunni version of prayer that WOULD mean that you really can't be drunk at all.

i think if its in medicine its fine. other than that for God's sake... don't you watch the news even?

plus you're right it really does taste like as im sorry. i don't know how anyone can force themselves to have something that tastes like you just sucked a donkey's butt and then feel like sht physically. No thanks. thats just plain retarded to me. and i don't need to follow any retarded crowd.