Question about ..

unknownuser

Peace Bro Layth

I follow your rationale until the last part. How does one "be careful" with alcohol? Please elaborate

unknownuser

Salam All

I believe there are a few big sins that were not forbidden out right yet they are haram like Qawl Al Zoor for example

Just my 2 cents

I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania

Cheers

unknownuser

First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~

Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald

unknownuser

I like liquor - its taste and its effects - and that is just the reason why I never drink it.

Thomas Jackson

Layth

Peace,

I follow your rationale until the last part. How does one \"be careful\" with alcohol? Please elaborate

Since we are told that it is one of the tools the devil likes to intice people through, then it follows that we should be careful when dealing with alcohol or gambling (i.e. that it can be destructive or that it can be harmful if used to exccess or used wrongly).

unknownuser

I like this one

Remember "I" before "E," except in Budweiser.

Layth

Salam,

I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania

Actually, it is forbidden.

Zina is called a fahisha in 1732
All fawahish are forbidden as per 6151.

unknownuser

PEeace

Actually, it is forbidden.

Zina is called a fahisha in 1732
All fawahish are forbidden as per 6151.

But doesn't this parallel Sis Myr's explanation of alcohol being forbidden?

Since we are told that it is one of the tools the devil likes to intice people through, then it follows that we should be careful when dealing with alcohol or gambling (i.e. that it can be destructive or that it can be harmful if used to exccess or used wrongly).

Now we get into a grey area. Which is fine because I don't believe the God wanted us to be robots. But how do we know what our "excess" level is? Does the God condone us experimenting until we figure it out? For example, a few sips for me makes me feel funny, whereas the person next to me can have a few whole drinks before he feels funny... At what point have we wronged our souls?

unknownuser

Hello all,

I have to go with the alcohol is permitted camp for some obvious analysis reasons

Nowhere does God forbid alcohol outright (see pig meat, blood, etc. for comparison).
God informs us that Salat is not to be approached while intoxiacted. This nullifies the haram argument in its infancy.
God tells us heaven will have rivers of alcohol as well as milk and honey. This again nullifies the haram argument as no pig or blood or any other haram elements are made available.
The verse used most to outlaw alcohol speaks of the devil and that he should be avoided (not the alcohol).
The ithm argument being presented is not valid as the verse clearly says fihima Ithm ( in them is Ithm) and not they are Ithm. Thus, alcohol in itself is not Ithm but may be used in a way that produces the Ithm (which is in-line with the previous point that the devil uses these tools against people).

Cleary alcohol is not haram and the only restriction found in the Quran is to avoid making Salat if intoxicated. Other than that, people shoudl be careful from alcohol in general as it is a tool (as well as gambling) that the devil uses to cause people to commit Ithm/wrong.

Taking into consideration all of Layth's strong points mentioned above as positive and analytical, I must emphasize that the strongest and most clearest point yet, lies within the verse 2219 itself, where the disadvantage of intoxication and games of chance outweighs its advantage point in comparison. What can be more straightforward and clearer than this, yet many argue baselessly and start drivelling and twisting around.

If people are not comfortable with alcohol consumption of any sort in any way, then simply stay away from everything concerning alcohol, which would be rather difficult in the first place. And that is applicable to just about anything by reason, not treason. Those who drink excessively and thus endangering themselves and others must slow down, limit themselves and use caution. Most important factors relies upon individual's conditional and environmental preferences, such as age, health, social outfit, tolerance, allowance, etc. and above all, the law of the land. Afterall what's the point in emphasizing the use of mind, eyes and ears.

The same concept applies to driving a car for example, where people must drive within speed limits, obey state laws and use caution rather than driving irrationally and at high speeds endangering themselves and others. Invariably, it also applies to sex on similar context and all other merits where some, it not all, benefit is administered or applied. Certain notions are very basic and doesn't necessarily require use of books (especially "holy ones&quot to create unecessary lengthy discussions, stress and disharmony. Books are creation of men sorted by these very actions as witnessed and reasoned.

thegod

ahmedbahgat wrote
I believe there are a few big sins that were not forbidden out right yet they are haram like Qawl Al Zoor for example

Just my 2 cents

I also believe that Zina was not forbidden outright yet is is a big sin, 243 does not forbid Zina outright rather it forbids that a Believer marry a Zani or a Zania

i have not yet found in the quran that the human flesh has been made "haram"...giving others ideas! idea grin

however, i believe the odds are excessively against intoxicants....and i have to say it was dion's post which shed a lot of light for me in this matter! -)

ammarb87

I also feel that DION's argument holds the most strength! It makes sense and is straight-forward!

thegod

ammarb87 wrote
I also feel that DION's argument holds the most strength! It makes sense and is straight-forward!

just a while back i was thinking of asking u whether the discussion so far has made any impact on u...... -)

Alen

Salam.

Alcohol.
Oh My GOD!
How many times do we have to talk about this?
I mean, it's alcohol.
It costs lots of money, it stinks, it causes dizziniess, it causes car accidents, women get beaten ver yoften when alcohol is involved. My neighbor was married to a husband who was beating her always when he was drunk. She had to move to another town and divorce him in order to live a life without any pain.

See, money is very hard to get. Once i get the money, AlhamdilAllah, AlhamdilAllah, i like to spend it in a way that i feel feel the consequences for a long time. See, when i wanna spend the cash and feel the consequences for a long time, i like to order the duck from Chinese restaurant because i feel good and full even the next day.

Alcohol just makes you drunk, you smell really, really bad and as a result, you end up apologizing to someone for causing something stupid, you find iout what that stupid is the next day.

Peace.

unknownuser

PEace Alen

you've just perfectly explained the very verse we've been trying to understand. Alcohol leads to no good. its pretty obvious and i really doubt any non-muslim who doesn't have a verse to try and figure out would tell us otherwise. its just common fact. its just because we have this verse that makes us different that all of a sudden our senses are out the door and alcohol becomes the next best thing since american cheese...

its not forbidden as in haram but for the love of all that's holy seriously i think we can go without drinking that which you couldn't even PRAY with! and if we don't take the traditional sunni version of prayer that WOULD mean that you really can't be drunk at all.

i think if its in medicine its fine. other than that for God's sake... don't you watch the news even?

plus you're right it really does taste like as im sorry. i don't know how anyone can force themselves to have something that tastes like you just sucked a donkey's butt and then feel like sht physically. No thanks. thats just plain retarded to me. and i don't need to follow any retarded crowd.

unknownuser

alcohol, heroine, and crack cocaine are the only drugs i know of, that can be produced without harsh chemical solvents that serve absolutely no good purpose at all for the human organism or mind. Alcohol is great for cleaning toilets, and that alone makes me not want to drink it. Just like i dont want to drink the stuff i actually DO clean my toilet in. Add to this, the line between "fun" and heavily intoxicated and embarrasing are so small, there is such a small window that it is next to impossible to control. You may think you control it, but trust me, you dont. You stink, and behave in a way that is inapropriate. Logic alone would keep you away from this stuff. As far as the Quran is concerned, i dont see it being made forbidden. But i do see that we shoud think about it. So rather than just saying "DONT DO IT" it says. Look at the people who drink and yourself FFS. Oh yeah, and dont talk to me when youre drunk. you stink and makes no friggin sense!

unknownuser

Can you help me pals?

I'm looking for a verse in the Quran that says outright "Shirk is haram"

your help will be appreciated

cheers

phoenix1

peace Ahmed,
Shirk is not an object that would be forbidden. It is a state of mind someone can be in. We have to free ourselves from it. Although I think that the quran doesn't have to use the word "haram" to forbid something, I think alcohol may not be forbidden since it's good is mentioned too.
There is good in intoxicants (medicinal drugs), and there is bad as well. We just have to be careful, that's all.

unknownuser

Hi Walid

so you reckon Alcohol is Haram to drink as intoxicants?

i'm not saying that it is outright Haram nor i think the Quran said so but indeed the Quran said that in it is a great Ithim and ithim is haram threrefore drinking it as intoxicatns must be haram, any other use of it like cleaning should not be haram

Salam

phoenix1

peace
Red vine contains a substance that has been proven to improve health and prolong life. It's healthy, unless you abuse it. So I don't think (and I think we agree Ahmed) that the quran says "never drink alcohol at all" but we just need to be careful. Alcohol is just like anyother drug, as I see it. But I probably won't touch alcohol in my life (maybe a bit of red wine when I'm older), but I just don't think the quran completely outlaws drinking it.

unknownuser

peace
Red vine contains a substance that has been proven to improve health and prolong life. It's healthy, unless you abuse it. So I don't think (and I think we agree Ahmed) that the quran says "never drink alcohol at all" but we just need to be careful. Alcohol is just like anyother drug, as I see it. But I probably won't touch alcohol in my life (maybe a bit of red wine when I'm older), but I just don't think the quran completely outlaws drinking it.

yep the Quran didn't completely outlow shirk by using the word haram, nor qawl al zoor neither zina, so how your ogic stands then?

now i tasted the red wine, it tastes s*** actually as well you get horrible headche, and if you see how they do it in australia you will throw out, it is disgusting man, they use their bear foot to squash the grapes, far out

10 times of 10 when I drank alcohol years ago, i had to be sick

the only reason to drink it is to get high, don't fool yourself mate and say it is bloody healthy, there are zillions of other healthy stuff that you can take, why red wine? oh yeh, to get high for sure, then to do something wrong and bloody blame alocohol

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry