What is deen according to your understanding? Can we implement deen?

Wakas

Can we implement deen on others?

My understanding so far...

Not forcibly, but if they agree to live in/by the deen, then they can be non-muslim and live in/by the deen. See chapter 9.

Al_Araf

salam liquiddharma. phoenicia is the old name for lebanon. ancient phoenicia had colonies in the mediterranean, the most famous of which is carthage, now in tunisia, home of hannibal, the general who fought rome.

google searches on phoenician, carthage, lebanon, will bring up plenty of sites. here are some examples

http//users.tpg.com.au/etr/etrusk/po/pyrgi.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
http//phoenicia.org/alphabet.html

Allah is the truth.

mmkhan

Salaaman khyaletanzim,

Deen according to my understanding is the "Way of God" and we cannot implement Deen

As per my understanding "Deen" means "System / Nizam(Urdu)".

I think it is like a computer program. Where all the icons are on desktop screen that shows clearly if you click this icon, you will take a step ahead Jahannam / Hell. Or else if you click on this icon, you will be lead a step towards Jannah / Paradise. The coding behind this program will never make mistake, they have been assigned everything. Now computer & program has been given to you. And mouse is in your hands, you got a free will to understand every icon before clicking it. All the explainations has been given in details.

If anyone clicks on the icon "Anti-Virus / Tauba", his viruses will be cleaned.
If anyone clicks on the icon "Format Hard Disk", he will lose all his data or works done (habitat aamaal).
If anyone clicks on the icon "Designing & Decoration", he will get all the things in this world.

Then, in the Day of Judgement, this program will be kept forward in front of each individual and they will be asked for what they have clicked the icons, that had already been recorded. No body can deny that as they can see with their own eyes what they have done.

"Maaliki yauwmid DEEN"

The program that we have given is fully automated and formulated. These formulas never calculate wrong. This is what I understand the meaning of DEEN. Allah knows best.

May Allah increase our knowledge on what we don't have knowledge and guide us all towards the correct path.

Regards,
mmKhan

khyaletanzim

@ mmkhan

If it is system then kindly tell me what do you understand when this word is used. If you consider it as a computer program then it means that one cannot force or implement it on others. But the problem with this example is that according to you it is automated but if the person using it does no know how to use it then what will happen? Is this his fault that he does not know how to use the program or what?

please clarify if I misunderstood.

@ Al araf

DYN as being the door through which our souls are anchored and grow.

if it is the door to grow then why it is said that it cannot be forced on others? Can you explain the meaning of the Arabic word millat accordingly.

Regards.

mmkhan

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

If it is system then kindly tell me what do you understand when this word is used. If you consider it as a computer program then it means that one cannot force or implement it on others. But the problem with this example is that according to you it is automated but if the person using it does no know how to use it then what will happen? Is this his fault that he does not know how to use the program or what?

please clarify if I misunderstood.

Brother, you have not read what I wrote carefully. I have already given answer for your questions

"Now computer & program has been given to you. And mouse is in your hands, you got a free will to understand every icon before clicking it. All the explainations has been given in details."

I hope you got the answer inshaAllah.

And you asked "If you consider it as a computer program then it means that one cannot force or implement it on others." Yes, no one can force it on others. Every individual got a free will to do what he wants. Help is given in detail.

Regards,
mmKhan

khyaletanzim

Posted by mmkhan Posted on September 22, 2008, 102952 PM

Brother, you have not read what I wrote carefully. I have already given answer for your questions

"Now computer & program has been given to you. And mouse is in your hands, you got a free will to understand every icon before clicking it. All the explainations has been given in details."

Dear i still cannot understand, may be due to lack of knowledge. please explain what do you mean by computer, program and mouse and how come i have free will to understand? according to my understanding i do have a free will to choose but no free will to understand. Please do quote the verse from quran where it is mentioned so.

Regards.

liquiddharma

Deen according to my understanding is the "Way of God" and we cannot implement Deen

I agree with your typo brother, to me deen means faith and it is not something human beings are capable of achieving 100%. It's not a political agenda or ideology. It is forbidden to try and force it on others against their will, it is also impossible to do so. It is something quite separate from conformity to scriptural dogma.

Someone

Deen means debt.
Are we indebted to someone for anything? Do we feel indebted to our community for taking care of us when we were weak and young? Do we have to payback for the air, water, food, sunlight, social support? that we enjoy daily without counting?

Are all these favors for free?

Surely, they are not. Nothing is for free in this creation. We have to strive for everything.

So, if we are in debt, we should payback our debt, but how? to whom? And what to give back?

Religions seem to provide answers to these fundamental questions, mostly to abuse its followers by taking a share of their money and using them to corrupt the land and abuse others. They make them feel deeply indebted, and play on their emotions in order to control their actions.

What does anyone of us owe to the others globally? What do we really owe our environment?

I think (or I have been inspired) that the least or minimum that I owe the world is that I would be inclined to the peace, not degrading my environment nor hurting others without justice. The straight path described in 6151-153 is giving more details about our approach towards the outside world, in order to be in phase with its rhythm, thus suffering less and enjoying better lives.

Everyone can see that there is nothing religious about these commands in the straight path, maybe the first command but it simply says to not mistake the god to be any THING (in the literal meaning of a ?thing?).
If one looks globally, one finds two sorts of people whatever their race, sex or religion might be. Those inclined to the peace (muslim) and those inclined to discord (kafir).

--

mmkhan

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

Dear i still cannot understand, may be due to lack of knowledge. please explain what do you mean by computer, program and mouse and how come i have free will to understand? according to my understanding i do have a free will to choose but no free will to understand. Please do quote the verse from quran where it is mentioned so.

I am sorry brother... In other words, Deen = System, Program, Laws, Dos and Don't, etc...

Like If you do this, this will happen / you will be rewarded OR if you don't do this, you will be punished. Every Dos and Don't has been mentioned. That is Deen as per my understanding.

For example If you give in the way of Allah, it is like 700 times you get in return. And if you don't spend in the way of Allah, you have taken a step towards Jahannam.

Or If you do good, in return you will get 10 times of what you have done and if you do bad, in return you will get the same.

Hope it may help inshaAllah.

May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.

Regards,
mmKhan

farida

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

I am sorry brother... In other words, Deen = System, Program, Laws, Dos and Don't, etc...

Like If you do this, this will happen / you will be rewarded OR if you don't do this, you will be punished. Every Dos and Don't has been mentioned. That is Deen as per my understanding.

For example If you give in the way of Allah, it is like 700 times you get in return. And if you don't spend in the way of Allah, you have taken a step towards Jahannam.

Or If you do good, in return you will get 10 times of what you have done and if you do bad, in return you will get the same.

Hope it may help inshaAllah.

May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.

Regards,
mmKhan

Salaam

Of courese we can implement deen see few examples for the smooth running in the UK

Park your car on a single yellow line you are allowed time to move but if it is double yellow line than penalty charge and if it on red line towed away.

When you borrow goods from the supermarket you are to pay for the goods or face charges for shoplifting.

When you make an agreement you honour it or face court for the breach of contract charge.

Rigth to enjoy freedom of speech and civil liberties unless
Nnuisance for your neighbour or your environment charges under Your Rights Under Noise & Statutory Nuisance Act 1993

Drink and enjoy life but if you drive - face prohibition from driving depending on charge.punishment.

To maintain order
Bodily harm- assault, kill ?murder - steal- theft criminal offence, for t so on and on

Law of compensation. Trust law, inheritance law, .. etc etc etc.

For programming and conditioning
Good schools and universities for education
Recreation centres
Libraries
etc etc etc
so for implementing the deen we need rules and regulations, penalties and punishments, compensations, programming and conditionings with due regard for personal well being and safe and pleasent environment for the citizens.
Not to forget good citizenship awards and honours.
peace

khyaletanzim

@farida

Your example was about laws that is "sharia" according to my understanding of Quran. Can you tell me If deen is what you say deen is then why God himself telling us that it cannot be forced?

@mmKhan

To me it is same if it is system or way of God. I wanted elaboration on computer & program, mouse in my hand and free will what is what according your post Posted on September 20, 2008, 092214 PM. What about the next part of the question.

@liquiddharma

Thanks for agreeing. It is a pleasure to know that you are sure of deen at least.

@ someone

if deen is debt then does it mean that debt cannot be taken forcibly?

Regards.

farida

@farida

Your example was about laws that is "sharia" according to my understanding of Quran. Can you tell me If deen is what you say deen is then why God himself telling us that it cannot be forced?

Salaam

I took meaning from Wakas post (see below) and showed when deen means system and a similar system can be implemented that dose not mean everyone follows rules and regulations however if you look closely "deen Islam " it has got all what we need in modern system and it can be implemented.

= Dal-Ya-Nun = obedience/submissiveness, servility, religion, high/elevated/noble/glorious rank/condition/state, took/receive a loan or borrowed upon credit, become indebted, in debt, under the obligation of a debt, contract a debt, repay/reimburse a loan, rule/govern/manage it, possess/own it, become habituated/accustomed to something, confirmation, death (because it is a debt everyone must pay), a particular law/statute, system, custom/habit/business, a way/course/manner of conduct/acting, repayment/compensation.

peace

mmkhan

Salaaman brother Khyaletanzin

@mmKhan

To me it is same if it is system or way of God. I wanted elaboration on computer & program, mouse in my hand and free will what is what according your post Posted on September 20, 2008, 092214 PM. What about the next part of the question.

I don't say it is same as "Way of Allah". Deen are the rules or the correct word might be FORMULAS made by Allah. Like if you add 2 + 2 = The answer will be surely 4. We cannot change this formula because it has been made by Allah. So, the answer has to be 4. Entering the number is in your hands like I said a mouse of a computer But the calculation is based on the formulas made by Allah. And if anyone comes up with their own formulas or any other to please Allah or for whatever reasons, it will NOT gonna accept by Allah as in 385. That means formulas are already fixed and completed , which cannot be changed or modified.

I hope you understand what I meant. If it is not yet clear for you what I mean, please tell me about your knowledge of computers. If you got a good knowledge of computer, I will try to explain the computer example in other words, inshaAllah.

-==-

As I said, deen is a system made by Allah and it has already been implemented by Allah. But for us, we have to understand it and do our deeds as per the program made in order to get success. Like for example Performing is Salaat al Juma is indeed a good deed. But can we perform it daily, because it is a good deed? No. It has been fixed on the day of Juma. This is a program, we cannot modify it.

We can show others this program and and the functions of this program to make them understand in order to use it correctly. But we cannot force them to follow it in the same way because everyone has given a free-will to follow the straight path or to take diversions.

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.

Regards,
mmKhan

Someone

Peace all,

6835

From this verse, we can see how "al-muslimeen" are contrasted with "al-moujrimeen"; this is to correct the end of my previous post as "moujrim" is referring to a criminal, opposed to ?muslim? meaning a peacemaker.

Now to your question Khyaletanzin ?if deen is debt then does it mean that debt cannot be taken forcibly??; Surely, in our social life, we are in debt to some and lending to others all the time; ?madina? coming from to same root as ?deen? refers to a place where everyone is indebted all the time for commodities, security, healthcare, education? this is the reason for money and thus work, taxes.. the economic system. If one doesn?t want to be indebted for such things, one can retreat from civilization and live a more simple life.

Even then, as we are some social creature, we have to live in a community. And even in the simplest community, each member has his own role to play, be it hunting, cooking, looking for water, defending the community?. This is to say that ultimately, nothing is free, and if you owe something to someone, then he has all the rights to claim it or its counterpart back from you, provided that proof is presented.

Having said that, I think that your question is more referring to the spiritual debt, or ?the debt? (ad-deen) as in the scripture, now things are different.

The all-giving creator provided for us everything even before we are able to recognize him as the giver, but also gave us the possibility to choose to payback or not in our lifetime. With all his might, he is giving us time to decide freely, then how can anyone else claim the right to force us payback our due to him instead of the creator?

--

khyaletanzim

@ someone and All

My simple question was what is Deen and why it is said that "No force in Deen". What is the reason or intention of God for combining these two words Deen and Force in this sentence? My intention was that one should explain keeping in mind what is said but it seems that everyone is telling me his understanding of Deen and disregarding the actual sentence. If one has different translation then please post your translation and then explain.

Till now few said that it is a system and few said religion and someone as debt but i am still in confusion that what it actually means according to you people.

Please answer clearly keeping in mind the sentence because in my understanding one cannot disregard any part of Quran at all times and it does not have any contradictions.

If it is a system or God tells his system in Quran then not forcing it will be useless.
If it is a Religion or God tells his Religion in Quran then not forcing it will be useless.
If it is a debt then not forcing can be understood but if it is only meant to be God's debt.

My understanding is that Deen is a way of God told to us In Quran for our betterment and that is why it is been told clearly that it cannot be forced on others in any way.

Regards.

mmkhan

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

First of all let me know what exactly do you want to know? You said

but it seems that everyone is telling me his understanding of Deen and disregarding the actual sentence. If one has different translation then please post your translation and then explain.

I don't understand this. Look at your subject line. I try to explain what I understand as you asked, but it seems that you are looking for something else now. Please understand your doubt then come up with your question.

If you are refering to "Laa ikraaha fidDeen". It does not contain the word force in any sense.

Please ask you question clearly.

Regards,
mmKhan

khyaletanzim

@mmkhan

If you are refering to "Laa ikraaha fidDeen". It does not contain the word force in any sense.

My dear friend my question is very clear but i dont know how you can say that there is no force in this sentence. what is the meaning of ikraha in this sentence according to your understanding?

according to my understanding the word ikraaha means the following

Arabic - English

,
forcing , compulsion , conquering , constraint , coercion , impelling , force , violence

Regards.

Al_Araf

salam khyaletanzim. you asked for an explanation of the arabic word millat.

2135

there are three ways to examine the word millat, i present them to you in historical order.

in aramaic the word MLL means speech or word.
the letters MLL represent M the water, L the staff of allah's authority, and L the staff of allah's authority. you are aware that the quran refers to rain and water as that which allah sends upon the earth to bring forth life. the double staff emphasizes the authority of allah.
the root of millat is MLL and lane's lexicon and the project root list use the term "vessel" like a clay jar used to carry liquids, or "sewing", as in sewing a patch on a thobe. these two words cross connect with the words of issa, as reported by luke in 536 "no man putteth a piece of new garment upon and old; if otherwise, then the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old" 537 "and no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles; and be spilled, and the bottles will perish"

to sum up the analysis, millat is the double authority words of allah which are sent as a blessing on mankind, to give life. ibrahim was the first to accept the authority of allah completely, to the point he was willing to sacrifice his son. issa warned us to be aware that the words of allah cannot be intermixed with old words of any other concepts or belief, because the words of allah being strong will burst any old vessel, or tear any old cloth. i see people whose very fabric is torn when they hear the words of allah, i see people whose hearts burst unable to accept allahs word, when they try and reconcile allah's word with their old garment, or pour allah's word into an old heart filled with false beliefs. muhammad accepted the authority of allah, and carried his son to the grave crying, saying, ameen, ameen.

allah is the teacher.

mmkhan

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

@mmkhan
My dear friend my question is very clear but i dont know how you can say that there is no force in this sentence. what is the meaning of ikraha in this sentence according to your understanding?

according to my understanding the word ikraaha means the following

Arabic - English

,
forcing , compulsion , conquering , constraint , coercion , impelling , force , violence

Regards.

No, "Ikraha" does not mean Force. Instead of looking at dictionaries, try to look at the usage of the same word in AlQuraan. InshaAllah, you will reach to the correct meaning.

If you understand urdu, it is the same word we use in urdu as Karahiyat, Makrooh, etc... Ikraha is a derivative of Karaha means something you don't like.

Regards,
mmKhan

liquiddharma

That doesn't fit the context - which is followed by "Truth stands out clear from Error", and I don't see how looking at modern Urdu can be more reliable than Arabic when translating the Quran. What other usage in the Quran are you looking at?