The Shahada
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Wakas
The Traditional "shahadah" can be refuted in several ways
- The earliest "Islamic" coins make no mention of prophet Muhammad, i.e. only contain the first part.
MAny of the Prophet's letters were stamped with the words ?Muhammad Rasul-ullah" (Muhammad the Messenger of Allah). Three of the Prophet?s letters have been preserved. I had posted the images of these letters at the thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13583.465and was astonished to find out that the images were removed, only one remains.
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Raaajah,
It seems there is variance about the chronological order of the coins and what they said. What we can say with certainty however, is that the traditional shahadah was not some sort of exclusive badge to stamp on coins.Re letters allegedly from Muhammad.
Have they been independently verified/dated? I know that Professor Fred Donner in his book for example, does not mention any, except the Medina document which he says is generally regarded as authentic by most Western scholars. -
Wakas
Re letters allegedly from Muhammad.
Have they been independently verified/dated? I know that Professor Fred Donner in his book for example, does not mention any, except the Medina document which he says is generally regarded as authentic by most Western scholars.A person who has done extensive research and is so humble to admit it, should not follow the the footsteps of Wansbrough,
following the footsteps of Wansbrough a different approach was taken by Judith Koren and Yehuda Nevo to study Islamic history. They contend that any Muslim source must be checked against a non-Muslim source (preferably material, e.g., archaeology, epigraphy, numismatics), and if the two sources conflict, the non-Muslim source is to be preferred
Why? for them I can understand but for you cannot.
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Peace,
eeemm, this is more of an attempt to get the input from fellow quran-aloners. Just had some thoughts id like to discuss. Any other input is welcome to of course.
I get the impression of that most quran-aloners seem to want to leave the Muhammad part of the shada out. I dont know but, the shada could have different meanings to different people, but as i see it it is a concrete statement of your belief, your faith and religion. If i like was facing certain death or something id maybe want to state my shada so that i surely made clear that i died as a believing man.
Now if i were to say "There is no God but THE GOD, and Muhammad was his servant and messenger" i would imply that, well, exactly what the sentence does say. The only reasonable conclusion you could draw from that expression is that this man believes in the one and only God and his guiding religion and book is the Holy Quran. Through that follows that i also believe in the previous prophets of the other abrahamitic faiths. If i were to make my shada as "There is no God but THE GOD" i would be leaving crucial information out of my declaration of faith as one would wonder what is then your perception of God, where do you get your faith from and what are your principles and so on. Of course everything you believe in comes from the Quran and it is crucial that you make that clear, for you could believe in the one God, but other than that you could also maybe believe in a supposed son of God or that God is made up of three distinct core essences or that God favors only the jewish race and what not.
To me it seems ever more reasonable to state my faith and my whole faith, because i define my self as a "quran-aloner" but when it comes to the declaration of faith i am reluctant to mention my source of scripture and guidance, which is the honorable servant and messenger of God, the prophet Muhammad, Gods medium of communication towards us. I can not see that it would make me idolize the prophet by doing that. As far as i know, and i very well could be wrong, the one who brought up this issue on a public scale for the first time was rashad khalifa. When i frst was discovering Islam that argument made some sense to me as i read it on the submission site. But now after things have come to settle themselves within me it doesnt make such a strong case anymore, especially since i dont believe in anything that khalifa claimed about himself. Maybe i back than was trying to distinguish myself from the sunnism which i had despised for so long, but without losing hold of that rope of guidance and one more chance which God seemed to handing down to me.
So the best and most accurate way of declaring your belief in the Quran as being a guidance from the creator of the universe surely must be to state that you believe that Muhammad was his messenger. Leaving this part out creates an really unnecessary lack of full information about ones faith. At this state i can not draw a more reasonable conclusion than that unnecessary is to exclude not to include it.
God guide us all who seek his guidance.Peace.
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Peace
There is no single verse in Quran which God asks us to testify to Prophet?s messngership??So far whatever I read in this thread was baseless claims and conjectures??God specifically asking us to believe in His messengers, Angels and Scriptures?Couldn?t God ask us to testify to His Messengers if He wanted us in doing so?
Glory be to God Who revealed the below verse in a chapter by the name of ?Mohammad? and yet majority are into making two shahada instead one through all sort of excuses
You shall know that "There is no other god beside GOD," and ask forgiveness of your sins and the sins of all believing men and women. GOD is fully aware of your decisions and your ultimate destiny.
As far as I know the stamp of Prophet was written as ?Allah ?Rasool-Mohammad? from top to down, if I?m wrong please correct me??Mohammad was messenger of God and that is a fact/true but what?s got to do with testifying to his messngership I really don?t understand.
Asana
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Dont know if there was a partial reply to my post Asana, buuut ill assume so P
Mohammad was messenger of God and that is a fact/true but whats got to do with testifying to his messngership I really dont understand.
If you read my above post youll find the answer argumenting for that question thats been brewing up inside my head like somewhat lately.
There is no single verse in Quran which God asks us to testify to Prophets messngership
Is there one that clearly states that we even need a shahada and clearly sais "This is the shahada.... (insert revelation)" without having us going certain lengths into interpreting so? Personally i am not aware of a shahada being a form of quranic law, but for me its just a convenient way of expressing my faith, of defining it and summing it up. I dont stand or fall on a shahada, but regardless its nice to have one.
Glory be to God Who revealed the below verse in a chapter by the name of Mohammad and yet majority are into making two shahada instead one through all sort of excuses
As i see it, theres a huge amount of verses in the Quran clarifying the right faith and the truth, including the messengership of Muhammad and the existance of angels and so on. Any one of them could be quoted as one.
Peace
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peace,
Raaajah,
AFAIK Fred Donner does not follow in the footsteps of John Wansbrough. In his book for example, Donner uses The Quran extensively to make his case.Asana,
I personally have nothing against the factual elements of the traditional shahadah, but the point is, it is simply not necessary. -
Peace
Halil we testify to the unity of God because of the below verses
Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.
But no where in the Quran God asks us to testify to His messngership of Prophet or any other Messengers/Prophets of God for that matter.
Statement of Shahada to the unity of God is worshiping and it?s necessary to be uttered?.Therefore adding another Shahada to it is idolatry.
Wakes
I do have problem with traditional shahada because of commandments of God and I wouldn?t pray with those who utter it in their prayers/worshiping.
Shahada of Prophet Mohammad is root of the evils going on in those so called Muslims countries because love of Prophet Mohammad &his family has turned them to see themselves above other people with different faiths giving them permission/right in killing and suppressing them??..How can one blame them when they days&nights are in making him partner beside God in their Shahada or whenever they remember God plus praising his name too?he is god to them.Asana
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When we say I bear witness there is no god but ALLAH
This is the true sahadaWhen we say there's no god but Allah and mohamed was his messenger, This is not a testimony of faith, this is an emblem, to differenciate between thos who follow the quran only brought by mohamed, and those who believe like us , there"s only one god, like jews or christians, and also sunnis and shi'as who use a different testimony, with bearing witness of mohamed as the messenger
it's like a flag for the coranists, no more no less, it's not a testimony of faith, for it is said without I BEAR WITNESS
that's what I think, it is even a perfect emblem i believe, to differenciate also from khalfa's followers, because mohamed brought to us the last message, the whole quran, so we follow the quran of mohamed -
It?s a perfect emblem of idolatry and deviation from what God is asking us in the Quran.
Is it necessary to make statement of Mohammad is messenger of God after there is no god beside God? No, it isn?t?..Those who would like to keep memory of a dead messenger alive beside God Almighty would utter such a statement?..I?m telling you this through my own personal experience for the last 9 years of my life by wiping out mentioning name of prophet next to God managed focus only on worshiping Him alone without compromising by adding memory or name of prophet to remembering God.
When I hear traditionalists utter name of prophet next to God believe me I lose my focus for a second for that I truly believe how Satan can distract us from worshiping God Alone.A Muslim believes in all messengers of God .only mentioning name of prophet beside God by all means it?s sign of hypocrisy and division and above that idolatry.
Asana
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True translation of LA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH MOHAMED RASSOUL ALLAH
Muslims sunnis when they say thie sentences when it is not a testimony of faith, they say it 100% orrect
Meaning, they dont say mohamed is the messager of god, they don't say mohamed was the messeger of god, they just say mohamed the messenger of godIn other words, if we translate it litterally
There is not god but allah, mohamed the messenger of allahwithout 'is'
it is a way to say we follow the quran brought by mohamed, it is not a testimony of faith
the testimony of faith, is I bear witness there is no god but ALLAH
rashad khalfa know this perfectly, and he used it to disgrace mohamed
if you go to the submitters site, you see only verses when allah corrected mohamed, or verses that put mohamed down, they even say indirectly we don't follow mohamed but we follow ibrahim
but when you see khalfa, you read titles like, rashad khalfa, the man , or the legacy of rashad, or khalfa PHD .....
I honestly from the deep of my heart believe that rashad khalfa wasn't a muslim , he was just like ibn kathir and tabari, he threw the good things in our faces, like follow only coran etc... to insert the bad things, like disgracing mohamed calling him an idol, doubting the quran by taking out 2 verses , and by inserting his names in it, putting people to worship a digit and forgetting all about the true reason why the quran came to us etc... I believe that khalfa was a genius who worked very hard for his enemies but didn't really succeed at the end, his real enemies are all the muslims in general and specially mohamed and the quran
I believe it's just a differnce of languages or cultures, saying mihamed the messenger of god is the same in our times as saying we follow the quran alone, do we believe that mohamed was the messenger of god ? of course we do, dhto we believe mohamed brought us the quran ? ofcourse we do, do we believe in the quran as the word of god? yes but wich quran ? the one brought by mohamed the messneger, not any other quran if there exist
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Quote from Halil, "I get the impression of that most quran-aloners seem to want to leave the Muhammad part of the shada out."
Salaam Halil,
Please See 318, 4719, 3735 for the correct Qur'aanic SHAHAADAH. There is no shahaadah in The Qur'aan that includes the name of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, in it. Besides, The Qur'aan emphasizes that we are not allowed to differentiate between the messengers of GOD SWT. Why don't you include the name of other messengers in your SHAHAADAH as well? They were all Muslims just the same and they are all dead and long gone away too! On the other hand, GOD Almighty is ever living, seeing, hearing, and in control of us 24-7 continuously. Doesn't it make sense to you that we stick to the message, the word of GOD SWT ALONE, rather than involving the helpless dead messengers? Don"t forget, in the Hereafter the Prophet Muhammad's only complain will be that we did distant our selves from The Qur'aan. See 2530. Also see verse 3144 as a clear warning to us regarding our going astray after Muhammad pbuh.
Peace,
Khalil -
kgwithnob
The people who follow the quran alone are so afraid of idolatery, wich is good, because sunni and shiaa did so much confusion and wrong things, that there influence is obvious, so if the quran alone folowers, wants to avoid idolatery to the max, I believe allah will be please with them, if the quran alone followers avoid the sunnis teachings, it's because quran followers wants to honor the prophet in the same time, by saying quran only followers, is the real saying of Mohamed the messenger of ALLAH and not bukhari, nor ibnkathir
Language changes and cultures,
Mohamed the messenger of allah = Follow quran onlyIf you ask quran alone followers who is the messneger of ALLAH that brought us the Quran, everyone will say Mohamed, no one will even deny this unless he is not a muslim, the reason allah calls him the messenger, is because of the message he delivers, the prophet is dead, the message is alive
Abu bakr said in one hadith according to sunnis themselves after the death of the prophet Whoever worship mohamed, mohamed is dead, whoever whorship allah, Allah is alive and never dies
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Peace to you all,
im starting to see your points, keeping the memory of a dead prophet alive next to God doesnt sound that well no, especially since your faith is supposed to be eternal and thus the expression of it. And ones intention is of course to avoid idolatry whenever possible.
Although mentioning Muhammad in the testimony gives a better definition of ones whole faith on a practical level, it deduces from the effect of having ones mind set on God and only God, which is more important than anything else.I am however not trying to alienate myself from other muslims, at least in general. I know that i share the same faith and both our intentions are to worship God alone, but many are of course in my view blind to the mistakes they are commiting. We are by no means that well off in regards to potential flaws.
Thank you for your inputs.
God be with you.
Peace.
