The Myth that Women have to "Obey" their Husbands
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Peace
And what an end TruthSeeker bravo
Thank you, Marleya, but I suspect this discussion is not going to end any time soon...
peace
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Peace,
Sa'dah,
You have discovered a lesson in the GENERAL nature of the genders and their inter-relationships. Some men are more receptive to womens' suggestions than others (we all have had mothers whom we are told to respect and listen to) but most men have a problem with women weilding authority over them. ANd I think many women don't know how to handle that and (as with many men as well) handle the authority without being demeaning. And in my opinion men and women should NOT be put in these competitive environments with each other. It only leads to resentment and ill-will. Now we all can adapt to situations we don't like if forced to. But we find ourselves ever increasingly in GENERALLY unnatural environments, and it can cause more problems than need be. I don't think any "liberated" woman will accept the nature of this dynamic and respond accordingly and the times certain don't call for us to have more natural relationships with each other. Women IN GENERAL seem to lash back and attack (rather illogically and over emotionally) whenever it seems that the integrity of their gender is critiqued in any way. I rarely see men seriously defending our gender. Jokingly we do it all the time, but we know we can't vouch for all the other guys out there. I think a little man solidarity would be nice, but obviously not all men are good men. Cultures may vary in the levels of man solidarity, but it is never on the level of woman-solidarity.
We all just need to act like good drones and work together like a Borg society accordin to mainstream society. But that is breaking up our society and our families frankly. It's creating women who are unsuitable for relationships with men and it is causing men to rebel against taking on manly responsibilities which can be undermined and competed for by the one he is trying to care for. Or sometimes these men do not learn them at all, because they grow up feeling undervalued and not needed as men.
My observations have been that men are more principal/philosophy oriented and are more cool-headed in comparison, and women are more pratical- oriented (they want to see those earthly goods needed for survival) and will sacrifice all in order to survive, while also being more emotional and irrational in comparison. These are generals, there are always the grey individuals and everyone has their moments of principal/philosophy, emotion, cool-headedness and irrationality. But I see that strong (generally unprincipaled) survival instinct making women better workers in the 'cut throat' and 'do as your told' work environments we find ourselves in today. That leaves more principaled/philosophically oriented men in tough situations. Of course if your philsophy IS cut throat and do as your told then there's no problem. And in a society that undermines the role of leadership in men and gladly gives it to a woman if she is a better drone . . . Well, that is a recipe for disaster. The woman might see it as liberating but her personal relationships with men suffer greatly because of the outlook that has been encouraged for her to have. And men grow bitter and less tolerant, unless they have some good distractions going on (video games, sports, or they make good money and happen to be the leader in the situation which will mitigate some of the problems that would ensue were he on the underside of the coin).
But I think the Quran strikes a good balance in setting up the man as a leader in his family and in the community but also demanding that he have his ears open, be retrospective, look out for the interest of, and care for the women and children in his family and community as he would look out for himself (ba'dukum min ba'din). And I think the strengths and weakness that men and women have respectively lend towards a more successful family unit and society if a woman is obedient (or biblically submissive) to the men in her life. UNLESS God is on her side and not on the men's side. And in the case where the men disagree (brothers, fathers and grown sons). Well, whoever makes the most sense and has God on his side is to be heeded. But none of that honor-killing stuff. If my sister, daughter or mother were on the path to Hell, i have NO right to try to speed that up. All I can do is pray that they are guided and be there for them when they are in need out of respect for the bond of blood. I think women are to be respected as human beings and never abused. I also think women have valuable experiences that should be utilized where needed and heeded. But I do not think men and women should be competing against each other in society or within the family. And the Quran helps to strike a balance that is good for the men and the women who choose to follow its guidance. Those who don't choose to follow it, can do as they like. Unfortunately the socieiteis we co-exist in are usually non Quranic (sometimes even our very families belong more to these societies than to the Quran), and ARE doing as they like. But we have to resist the temptation to go with the status-quo and live the Quran in our personal lives at the very least. A Quranic community would help us live by the Quran in a better way, but I don't see that dream Quranic community coming along any time soon. Although I would love to see it one day. Until then I'll ask God for patience, ask Him to protect me from Satan and his friends and I'll keep on trucking, and trying to earn my place in Paradise when the Good Lord decides to take me.
I have no god but God. Praises be to Him! (I really see God as an 'It' but that is a linguistic lesson I don't want to give right now).
Five stars.
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I see around, I see common men and women. People married for many years, muslims or non muslims, and what I see in marriages that have lasted a long time is that nobody gives a damn about such a henpecking order. They go about their business, have their little disputes, shout a little over each other, recriminate each other from time to time or every five minutes, depends, and carry along happily and contentedly without ever occurring to them to ask themselves who is in charge or who shoulde be in charge. I find weird that some men find it so endearing to have it stated that marriage needs a chief that that chief should be them. I find it pitiful in a way. So desperate for acknowledgement are they? Do they feel so worthless by themselves without the prop of chieftanship? Why? Because finally, if chieyftainship is pretended and not acknowledged they will have to become tyrants to make it stick or they will have to forget it. I guess the happy ones forget it and hold privately their chieftainship fantasy and the really hopeless ones end up with a broken marriage. In a relationship between equals preminence is doom.
Salam
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I see around, I see common men and women. People married for many years, muslims or non muslims, and what I see in marriages that have lasted a long time is that nobody gives a damn about such a henpecking order. They go about their business, have their little disputes, shout a little over each other, recriminate each other from time to time or every five minutes, depends, and carry along happily and contentedly without ever occurring to them to ask themselves who is in charge or who shoulde be in charge. I find weird that some men find it so endearing to have it stated that marriage needs a chief that that chief should be them. I find it pitiful in a way. So desperate for acknowledgement are they? Do they feel so worthless by themselves without the prop of chieftanship? Why? Because finally, if chieyftainship is pretended and not acknowledged they will have to become tyrants to make it stick or they will have to forget it. I guess the happy ones forget it and hold privately their chieftainship fantasy and the really hopeless ones end up with a broken marriage. In a relationship between equals preminence is doom.
Salam
bravo
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I see around, I see common men and women. People married for many years, muslims or non muslims, and what I see in marriages that have lasted a long time is that nobody gives a damn about such a henpecking order. They go about their business, have their little disputes, shout a little over each other, recriminate each other from time to time or every five minutes, depends, and carry along happily and contentedly without ever occurring to them to ask themselves who is in charge or who shoulde be in charge. I find weird that some men find it so endearing to have it stated that marriage needs a chief that that chief should be them. I find it pitiful in a way. So desperate for acknowledgement are they? Do they feel so worthless by themselves without the prop of chieftanship? Why? Because finally, if chieyftainship is pretended and not acknowledged they will have to become tyrants to make it stick or they will have to forget it. I guess the happy ones forget it and hold privately their chieftainship fantasy and the really hopeless ones end up with a broken marriage. In a relationship between equals preminence is doom.
Salam
You forgot to provide us with some reference to these marriages.
Anyway, what I know of is, that marriages with an individual that has no ability or training to be a boss but is told that they should be a boss, just become bossy. And when someone accepts a boss in a relationship, those subordinates some how become reliant on that ill trained boss. I have personally experienced that. But only with individuals who were not at all trained in either Islamic knowledge or even Quranic knowledge, just their home grown 'translators' knowledge, and themselves love to part of non-islamic societies.
As for the term broken marriages... isn't that a christian term that doesn't exist as divorces are allowed in Islam?
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The believing husband and wife co-operate with mutual understanding and consideration. This originates from their innate believer personalities of being self-sacrificing, caring and understanding. There is not the slightest master-slave inclination in their relationship as they are devoted to Allah and take the Qur'an as their guide.
"One of His signs is that He created for you spouses like your selves so that you may live with them with affection and mercy - there are signs in this for people who reflect" (Qur'an 3021)
www.quranicpath.com | The Myth that Women have to "Obey" their Husbands
Salaam
This is exactly how I understand that obedience is only to Allah and one should rather take the meaning dutiful when talking about the wife's role. There is no master and slave relationship. It's ideally a close relationship like of the garments to the body; one who is aware of her duty as a wife in order to keep the marrage peaceful and nurturing. Co-operative spouses supports each other as garments to each other, protecting the other supporting without displaying a challenging attitute from either side. After all the man is God's gift to the woman, just as the wife is a treasure from God bestowed on her husband, and therefore should be treasured.
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Peace,
A warning to the believing single men here. Stay away from these women (if they are single)!! If they are not single, let me show some sympathy to the husbands if they act like they speak.
There is nothing wrong with obedience of a wife to her husband. Yes her husband is a human being and obedience to God takes precedence but a wife should obey her husband if he is godly and not exceeding the bounds of the Quran. That is how God says it should be and any believing woman who will rebel against her husband with her excuse being 'He's not the boss of me' should be fearful of the Hell-fire. That rebellion is not only in spite of her husband but also in spite of God, and is motivated by pure pride.
God gave the responsible believing man this privaledge for good reason. A I discussed some of that in my post above, that was quoted by Fahad. A woman who rejects this guidance from God should watch out in the hereafter, she might have a shock coming her way. A truly believing, humble woman would have not problem and would not be raising any objections to obeying her believing, responsible and reasonable husband. The same warning goes for the abusive, irresponsible husbands, whatever their excuses are they should fear the hell-fire just as much.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
A warning to the believing single men here. Stay away from these women (if they are single)!! If they are not single, let me show some sympathy to the husbands if they act like they speak.
Godbless,
AnwarSalaam brother Anwar,
Stay away from what sorts please explain?
.There is nothing wrong with obedience of a wife to her husband. Yes her husband is a human being and obedience to God takes precedence but a wife should obey her husband if he is godly and not exceeding the bounds of the Quran. That is how God says it should be and any believing woman who will rebel against her husband with her excuse being 'He's not the boss of me' should be fearful of the Hell-fire. That rebellion is not only in spite of her husband but also in spite of God, and is motivated by pure pride.
Is it pure pride that some men like world obdience then dutiful, why do you prefer the word obedient to dutiful? What is wrong with being dutiful the meaning of which is so much wider, and entails the fulfilling of what is expected of you by God and by man?
God gave the responsible believing man this privaledge for good reason.
God does not give a benefit for nothing and when the children of Israel were given their privileges it was under the auspices of the covenant. So the first step should be to find out the obligations connected with any privilege
A woman who rejects this guidance from God should watch out in the hereafter, she might have a shock coming her way.
Same goes for men
A truly believing, humble woman would have not problem and would not be raising any objections to obeying her believing, responsible and reasonable husband.
A believing woman would not need to be told she would be well aware of her duties.
The same warning goes for the abusive, irresponsible husbands, whatever their excuses are they should fear the hell-fire just as much.
Yet he should be obeyed ???
peace -
So if women obeying their husbands is a myth... then what about women obeying their parents (quran 29?
And We instructed the human to be good to his parents. But if they strive to make you set up partners with Me, then do not obey them. To Me are all your destinies, and I will inform you of what you used to do.Salaam FAR
As I understand to be good to his parents would also include doing your duty to your parents including looking after them without them ordering to do so.12 100. And he raised his parents high on the throne ..Joseph did not have to be told he did his duty as a good son of his parentsBut if try to take advantage of their status as a parent then, 4 135. O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents,
and if they / force you to set up partner with God then you do not obey them as they are forcing their belief on you. Rebellion causes greif for the parents but in this exceptional case you do not need to please them by being humble to them in kindness otherwise there is no such command that one shoud obey their parents.Reference of the kindness your PARENTS
283 283 And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect) Worship none but Allah. treat with kindness your PARENTS and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).436 Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents,
6 151. Say "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents;1723 Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents.
- And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning (hear the command), "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents to Me is (thy final) Goal.
46 15. We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents
peace -
Peace,
Farida, I don't have to explain myself. What I said was crystal clear. The fact that you completely misinterpreted my last sentence is proof enough (husbands who are abusive and irresponsible should be divorced). As for the choice of words, dutiful sounds good. My first instinct is to say tomay-toes, tomah-toes. But the Quran chose the word obedient. If that also entails being dutiful, sounds good. Again, tomay-toes, tomah-toes. You have issues with the word obedient. Those are your issues, and you should work that out on your own. If you disagree with what i'm saying . . .if the shoe fits . . .
Godbless,
Anwar -
A conversation I overheard not too long ago
Wife Dear husband, she is only 10 years old; she is not ready for marriage. And how could you possibly give her away to a man three times her age?! How could you possibly do such a thing without discussing it with me first?!
Husband I am the captain of this ship and you must not question my decisions. The man has promised me that he will not sleep with her until she reaches puberty and I trust him.
Wife Oh foolish husband o? mine, he will not keep his promise. I have seen him; I can tell. Call it woman?s intuition, but trust me, I can sense that he is not a good man. She is just a child and is not mentally, emotionally or physically ready for marriage, even upon reaching puberty. Please listen to me and don?t do this to our child. She will be miserable.
Husband Silence! How dare you question my decisions!! My decision stands. I am the man here and you all must do as I say. She is to marry him next month.
A few months later, she?s in the news
http//www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/15/yemen.childbride/index.html
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A conversation I overheard not too long ago
Wife Dear husband, she is only 10 years old; she is not ready for marriage. And how could you possibly give her away to a man three times her age?! How could you possibly do such a thing without discussing it with me first?!
Husband I am the captain of this ship and you must not question my decisions. The man has promised me that he will not sleep with her until she reaches puberty and I trust him.
Wife Oh foolish husband o mine, he will not keep his promise. I have seen him; I can tell. Call it womans intuition, but trust me, I can sense that he is not a good man. She is just a child and is not mentally, emotionally or physically ready for marriage, even upon reaching puberty. Please listen to me and dont do this to our child. She will be miserable.
Husband Silence! How dare you question my decisions!! My decision stands. I am the man here and you all must do as I say. She is to marry him next month.
A few months later, shes in the news
http//www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/15/yemen.childbride/index.html
Yes I would have married her to someone older. Most males who are three times older than a 10 year old menarchecal female are far too young to have passed through the andropausal stage.
Ah... the girl hadn't reached puberty, so said the judge.
http//articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/11/world/fg-childbride11
The girl has refused to see a psychologist or a gynecologist. She says she doesnt like doctors. And besides, she says, the experience has made her stronger and wiser.
She says shes had enough of marriage and domestic life, and looks forward to beginning third grade and pursuing dreams she never knew she had.
I want to defend oppressed people, she says. I want to be like Shada. I want to be an example for all the other girls.
An example for all the other girls?
As for what the parents said... do you have proof?
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Ok, which was the more godly situation?
To marry a child off who hasn't even reached puberty without waiting until she's old enough to make her own decision on who she wants to marry? That is not Quranic. The Quran says women cannot be inherited. So an arranged marriage without the woman's consent is wrong. And to force a young girl who has not even reached puberty to be married is completley unquranic. So why didn't the wife go to the Quran to show that her husband was wrong? Why was her father trying to get rid of her? Obviously not for godly reasons. Again, I can only vouch for how a relationship between a godly couple who follows and studies the Quran should be. the Kafiroona among Muslims and non Muslims do not apply. They will do as they please, the women and the men. That's a great example of how the woman had a right to not obey her husband, becuz God's laws take precedence.
I'm sure we can find similar siutations where a husband tells his wife not to do something, she does it and OOOHH the consequences. So here's the thing. If it's against God, a woman has every right to object and disobey if that is what has to be done to obey God. If it's not she should listen. I think in this case, if the woman couldn't show her husband that he was Quranically or even Islamically wrong (or atleast find someone who could), then both of them were ignorant and unfortunately the child suffered. That happens more often than not. Children regularly suffer because of the ignorance of their parents. Intuition and hunches without foundation are not on the same level as knowledge. So let's let the woman intuition stuff go when it comes to this situation. That's all emotion and something concrete is needed. Unfortunately that is where the man could have done some good. Unfortunately he had his own satanic agenda already in motion. In my opinon according to traditional Islamic law, if a child cannot testify in court they shouldn't be allowed to marry either.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Ok, which was the more godly situation?
To marry a child off who hasn't even reached puberty without waiting until she's old enough to make her own decision on who she wants to marry? That is not Quranic. The Quran says women cannot be inherited. So an arranged marriage without the woman's consent is wrong. And to force a young girl who has not even reached puberty to be married is completley unquranic. So why didn't the wife go to the Quran to show that her husband was wrong? Why was her father trying to get rid of her? Obviously not for godly reasons. Again, I can only vouch for how a relationship between a godly couple who follows and studies the Quran should be. the Kafiroona among Muslims and non Muslims do not apply. They will do as they please, the women and the men. That's a great example of how the woman had a right to not obey her husband, becuz God's laws take precedence.
I'm sure we can find similar siutations where a husband tells his wife not to do something, she does it and OOOHH the consequences. So here's the thing. If it's against God, a woman has every right to object and disobey if that is what has to be done to obey God. If it's not she should listen. I think in this case, if the woman couldn't show her husband that he was Quranically or even Islamically wrong (or atleast find someone who could), then both of them were ignorant and unfortunately the child suffered. That happens more often than not. Children regularly suffer because of the ignorance of their parents. Intuition and hunches without foundation are not on the same level as knowledge. So let's let the woman intuition stuff go when it comes to this situation. That's all emotion and something concrete is needed. Unfortunately that is where the man could have done some good. Unfortunately he had his own satanic agenda already in motion. In my opinon according to traditional Islamic law, if a child cannot testify in court they shouldn't be allowed to marry either.
Godbless,
AnwarAre you providing the guillotine chop to the proof behind the above alleged husband and wife conversation?
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...As for the choice of words, dutiful sounds good. My first instinct is to say tomay-toes, tomah-toes. But the Quran chose the word obedient. If that also entails being dutiful, sounds good. Again, tomay-toes, tomah-toes. You have issues with the word obedient. Those are your issues, and you should work that out on your own. If you disagree with what i'm saying . . .if the shoe fits . . .
Godbless,
AnwarGod did not choose that word. Men chose that word. That entire verse you refer to is completely mistranslated. I have already provided the true meaning of that verse but if you don't believe me, research it for yourself and you will learn the truth.
Progod, that comment of yours about the women in this thread was uncalled for; not very nice of you. These are very wise, intelligent and obviously, highly educated women who know that they stand equal in the sight of God and also know that God did not command women to ?obey? their husbands. Given that equality for all human beings is promoted, it doesn?t make sense that God would command any adult to ?obey? another. The Qur?an certainly does not promote slavery and this degrading and demeaning word conveys a master-slave relationship.
The Qur?an does not place men in charge of women. It does not create a hierarchy in which men are placed above women. Men--through fabricated hadith stories and the distortion of some Qur?anic verses pertaining to women--have done this. In particular, the incorrectly-translated verse 434 has traditionally been used to subordinate women to men. However, all throughout the Qur?an it is clear that men and women stand absolutely equal in the sight of God.
I don?t have much time right now but next time I will share with you MY observations regarding the nature of men and women, and work and roles and all that great stuff some of you guys I?m sure can?t wait to hear about...but until then, I will leave you with these verses
"One of His signs is that He created for you spouses like your selves so that you may live with them with affection and mercy - there are signs in this for people who reflect"
?The Believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another; they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil??
peace
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Yes I would have married her to someone older. Most males who are three times older than a 10 year old menarchecal female are far too young to have passed through the andropausal stage.
Ah... the girl hadn't reached puberty, so said the judge.
http//articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/11/world/fg-childbride11
An example for all the other girls?
For you to say that there is nothing wrong with marrying a 10 year old child tells me that you're either joking or that there's something seriously wrong with you mentally. I certainly hope you were just joking.
As for what the parents said... do you have proof?
Well, not exactly, since I didn't record the conversation but I do have a great memory, so you will have to trust me when I say that that was exactly what they said.
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I don?t have much time right now but next time I will share with you MY observations regarding the nature of men and women, and work and roles and all that great stuff some of you guys I?m sure can?t wait to hear about...but until then, I will leave you with these verses
"One of His signs is that He created for you spouses like your selves so that you may live with them with affection and mercy - there are signs in this for people who reflect"
?The Believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another; they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil??
peace
Hey nice posts shqipe, and what you doing prancing about showing both eyes in public, eh? ;D
mir? u pafshim
peace
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Only for contemplation
Marriage
Then Almitra spoke again and said, "And what of Marriage, master?"
And he answered saying
You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.
Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another but make not a bond of love
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together, yet not too near together
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.
Gibran Khalil Gibran -A Lebanese poet and artist