How was the holy book compiled?
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I remember being told at a friday prayer sermon that the holy book was compiled by one of the khalifas after Muhammad's death. Apparently this was because it was originally meant to be a oral tradition, but many people who had memorized the Quran had died in a battle. I'd like to know if this is how it happened? From what I know, there are many verses that beging with "This book" or "In this book," how can it be meant to be transmitted orally?
So, in short.
How was the book compiled.
Who did it.
Is it still in its complete 100% original form? - letter by letter. -
Actually Muhammad wrote the quran with his own 2 hands, despite what sunnis will tell you. Then after he died(at that time some people had memorized it),his friend(That had memorized it) got his quran together and then they made a new one to be given to the other ends of the empire. Quran isn't long + they had memorized it + they had muhammad's that's reliable
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Actually Muhammad wrote the quran with his own 2 hands, despite what sunnis will tell you. Then after he died(at that time some people had memorized it),his friend(That had memorized it) got his quran together and then they made a new one to be given to the other ends of the empire. Quran isn't long + they had memorized it + they had muhammad's that's reliable
I'm sorry but can you cite some sources?
Which friend?
Who is they?
"Empire?"
This does not make sense. What is the need to rewrite/recompile the book if it had already been written? -
Actually Muhammad wrote the quran with his own 2 hands, despite what sunnis will tell you. Then after he died(at that time some people had memorized it),his friend(That had memorized it) got his quran together and then they made a new one to be given to the other ends of the empire. Quran isn't long + they had memorized it + they had muhammad's that's reliable
This claim is totally false in the light of the Quran...
2948 Neither did you (O Muhammad SAW) read any book before it (this Qur'an), nor did you write any book (whatsoever) with your right hand. In that case, indeed, the followers of falsehood might have doubted.
May Allah guide us all...
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Peace Wayfinder,
The verse says that he had not written a book before the quran, not that he never wrote a book. The "whatsoever" is not in the arabic and the translator had to put it in brackets to twist the word of God. It is clear from the verse that his not writing a book was before the quran. Actually this verse is PROOF that he wrote the quran with his hands.
The "qablihi min kitabin" is applicable to both "tatloo" and "takhuthu" according to the grammar.
This has been discussed on this forum in detail in the past.
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I'm sorry but can you cite some sources?
Which friend?
Who is they?
"Empire?"
This does not make sense. What is the need to rewrite/recompile the book if it had already been written?http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
Here talks a lot about it and manuscripts and full quran's we've found to verify
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Peace Wayfinder,
The verse says that he had not written a book before the quran, not that he never wrote a book. The "whatsoever" is not in the arabic and the translator had to put it in brackets to twist the word of God. It is clear from the verse that his not writing a book was before the quran. Actually this verse is PROOF that he wrote the quran with his hands.
The "qablihi min kitabin" is applicable to both "tatloo" and "takhuthu" according to the grammar.
This has been discussed on this forum in detail in the past.
I am not on the same understanding on this...
The 'min qablihi' is specially after the 'tatloo'... had it been before the tatloo, it would have had the same meaning but would have include the next statement after the 'wa' conjunction... 'Maa Kounta' applies for both... It is similar to C language P
Also, the following verse support this...
8015 (Written) by the hands of scribes-
And not by the hands of the messenger... Since the 2948 says Muhammad did not write.. It also means that he was not a scribe... While the Quran was written down by many scribes... On other verses, Muhammad is commanded TO RECITE to the people...
- Did you notice the 2 negation signs in that verse... both are not same and does not have same weight... For one it is 'MAA' which denotes a negation in the past tense... Like 'maa akaltou' I did not eat! So Muhammad did not read any scripture before so that he can plagiarize...
Now the second negation does not use MAA but LAA which is normally used for the present tense... LAA AZHABOU ILAL MASJID... I AM not going to the mosque... So that part should translate to 'AND YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO WRITE WITH YOUR RIGHT HAND'.... and not translated in the past tense... Because this trait of Muhammad remained till his death... It denotes continuity of that trait...
This is my opinion of the issue...
Wassalaam
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rotfl
Trials and tribulations- Moses went through the biggest hurdls of life and from it he learnt much.
Every person goes through them- the wise learn from them, and the foolish don't.
havn't you read somewhere in the quran......
"But he who is given his Record(kitaab) behind his back"
but saying all that you could right Al-kitaabs of people in paper back books to preserve and for the benefit of others.
God Bless you All.
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rotfl
Trials and tribulations- Moses went through the biggest hurdls of life and from it he learnt much.
Every person goes through them- the wise learn from them, and the foolish don't.
havn't you read somewhere in the quran......
"But he who is given his Record(kitaab) behind his back"
but saying all that you could right Al-kitaabs of people in paper back books to preserve and for the benefit of others.
God Bless you All.
279 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
Is not it clear enough?
I read a good definition of book from one thread and I even copied it to some files, here it is..
A book could consist of a few written pages bound together, and then we can keep expanding the same book by adding more written pages to it, and the expanded book would still be a book. For example the current Bible consists of many ?books? that were added to it at different periods, but the end result is still a book, and the Bible was still a book before other ?books? were added to it !
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Peace,
This doesn't make any sense. Muhammad was not illiterate. According to the Quran, the rejectors said
"Myths from the past. He wrote them down as they were dictated to him morning and evening." (255)
By this, they are admitting that Muhammad wrote the Quran with his own hand, and he was NOT illiterate. How can you dictate to an illiterate person to write and read something? 2948 is referring specifically to previous scriptures (Torah and Gospel); it's not referring to the Quran. In fact, according to Islamic scholars (which can be wrong or write on certain issues), the first passage revealed from the Quran was the word "READ", and then it illustrates how "Allah teaches by means of the PEN" (961-4). After this, according to their views, the next revealed chapter is the 68th, coincidentally entitled "Al-Qalam"/The Pen, and explaining in CLEAR TERMS that the pen is used to WRITE... Why would this be delivered to Muhammad if he couldn't read or write?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
This doesn't make any sense. Muhammad was not illiterate. According to the Quran, the rejectors said
"Myths from the past. He wrote them down as they were dictated to him morning and evening." (255)
By this, they are admitting that Muhammad wrote the Quran with his own hand, and he was NOT illiterate. How can you dictate to an illiterate person to write and read something? 2948 is referring specifically to previous scriptures (Torah and Gospel); it's not referring to the Quran. In fact, according to Islamic scholars (which can be wrong or write on certain issues), the first passage revealed from the Quran was the word "READ", and then it illustrates how "Allah teaches by means of the PEN" (961-4). After this, according to their views, the next revealed chapter is the 68th, coincidentally entitled "Al-Qalam"/The Pen, and explaining in CLEAR TERMS that the pen is used to WRITE... Why would this be delivered to Muhammad if he couldn't read or write?
Peace,
Ahmad
Salaam brother Ahmad,
This is an interesting topic and I had been doing some research on it recently...
A point worth noting..neither me or your accept these fabricated tales and lies as our source of deen, so the 'READ' to be the first revealed command should not be take into consideration, whether it was the first to be revealed, revealed in the middle or the last to be revealed... It still bears the same weight... It is still a command from RABOUL AALAMEEN... So no need to quote that again... Because there is no way we can be sure about this claim except through hadith.. and this is mere speculation...
However, this verse you quoted is interesting and should be studied...
We should note that the verb used here is IKTATABA and not KATABA... therefore it does not mean written down, but should have another meaning that can be similar or totally different... Here in my dictionary, it means to SUBSCRIBE TO ... the translation is wrong according to me and should be studied to find the right and correct meaning...
Also, there is no doubt the the Quran WAS COMPILED in book form in the time of revelation and lifetime of the prophet...
- Numerous times of the word Al-Kitaab
ZAALIKAL KITAABOU LAA RAYBA FIIHI... this verse has the word ZAALIKA which means this and you are pointing/showing to something and the object we are point to here is AL-KITAAB... AL-KITAAB means THE BOOK... So, Allah is saying ' There is no doubt in this book' and the meaning implies that we are pointing to a book... So if the Quran was not in bookform at that time... then how can Allah point the Audience of Muhammad to a book which have not yet come into existence? It is like me saying to you... Look at this nice car... and when you turn to look at the car.. there is no car! This is totally illogical... The conclusion from this verse alone is a proof against those who are saying the contrary... To prove their claim, they will have to re-invent the arabic language and its dictionaries...
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A3LLAMAL INSAANA BIL QALAM... He taught mankind by the PEN... not by the SOUND only as the others say Quran is being transmitted through recitation only...
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HOWEVER, the QURAN was not written down by Muhammad the Messenger, but by many scribes ... not only one!
Nay, (do not do like this), indeed it (these Verses of this Qur?an) are an admonition, Therefore let who will keep it in remembrance. On honored PAGES. Exalted, purified, (Written) by the hands of SCRIBES. Noble and righteous. 80 11/12/13/14/15/16
So Brother Ahmad, we should focus on the 255 for a while and try to bring the correct meaning...
It seems to me like this ... They said the Muhammad has subscribed to the ancient tales and stories, and HE DICTATES it day and night...
This could be the correct meaning... he dictates it to the scribes... However, we need to study this verse deeply to come to the right conclusion...
Peace
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Salaam WayFinder,
I don't think we should take the aspect of it being called "alkitaab" into consideration, since all the scriptures combined are referred to as "alkitaab". Even the followers of the Torah and Gospel are called "ahl alkitaab". What should be considered, in my opinion, is the concept of 8011-15. It refers to the book as a "reminder", alluding to the previous scriptures (Torah and Gospel). That's why 812 says
So, who wanted REMEMBERED HIM. (812)
So, again, this is speaking of a past event, referring to the previous scriptures. Then, it goes on to say it was placed on "suhufin mukarramaatin", which literally means honored written documents or sheets. This also refers to the previous scriptures, since the writitngs of the Torah were written by many people over different time periods. In the instance of the Quran being written down and compiled, it was only written down and delievered by one person. The key to understanding this is the passages after this
"marfuaatin mutaharaatin" = raised/elevated, purified/cleaned
"bi aydee safaraatin" = in the hands of travellers/messengers
"kiraamin bararaatin" = honorable, righteousMany people have mistranslated the word "safara" as being "scribe", and this is wrong. The word for scribe is "kaatiban". This (safara) is speaking about travellers who spread the message to others, or ambassadors. It doesn't mention anything about scribes. And these ambassadors are not writing down the scriptures because the Quran says that they are already on "written pages/documents/sheets". Why would they need to write down something that's already written down? So, in my view, regarding the case of the Quran, this is most likely referring to angels who delievered the message, which is why it is described as being "raised and cleaned", something that we as humans don't do to God's scriptures...
Peace,
Ahmad
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It seems to me like this ... They said the Muhammad has subscribed to the ancient tales and stories, and HE DICTATES it day and night...
"And they said; tales of old he has written since these are dictated to him morning and evening".
The person to/upon whom something is he is called a writer.
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Peace brothers,
Here is my understanding on 255... I will not be around for the weekend... experiencing connection problems... keep adding...
http//i40.tinypic.com/anlthk.gif
Many people have mistranslated the word "safara" as being "scribe", and this is wrong. The word for scribe is "kaatiban". This (safara) is speaking about travellers who spread the message to others, or ambassadors. It doesn't mention anything about scribes. And these ambassadors are not writing down the scriptures because the Quran says that they are already on "written pages/documents/sheets". Why would they need to write down something that's already written down? So, in my view, regarding the case of the Quran, this is most likely referring to angels who delievered the message, which is why it is described as being "raised and cleaned", something that we as humans don't do to God's scriptures...
SAFARAH does not mean messengers... It means SCRIBES... in plural form... the singular is SAAFIR
SIFR(pl ASFAAR) book (especially one of the scriptures)
SAAAFIR(pl SAFARAH) scribe <---I think it is derived from the SAFARA(Form IV) which means to shine,glow,disclose,uncover
Also check the verse... 8038
WOUJOOHOUN YAWM IZI MOUSFIRAH...
Moufirah=shining,glowingNow here are the words that you proposed and these are their right meaning from the dictionary.
SAFARAH(written same as safarah for scribe but is singular) pl SAFARAAT ... journey,travel, trip,tour... So obviously, these honoured pages cannot be in the HANDS of the TRAVEL/JOURNEY/TRIP/TOUR.... The SAFARAH for this word is in singular, and in the verse it says the HANDS of the SAFARAH which means more than 2 hands... grammatically incorrect therefore.... It cannot be this SAFARAH.
While HANDS for the SAFARAH(pl meaning scribes) is grammatically correct... the scribes have more than 3 hands since we have many scribes...
MOUSAAFIR = traveller,passenger,visitor
SAFIIIR(pl SUFARAA) enbassadorI think I am correct on this one... May Allah bless us with more knowledge and understanding of His Book...
Wassalaam
*typo errors are frequent in my posts P
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Peace WayFinder,
This is incorrect. The word "alsaafir" means "the ambassador", not the scribe/writer. The plural form ("safaarah" refers to travellers or ambassadors. The word for scribe is "kaatiban", which is used this way in the Quran (2283; also 8211 uses the word "kaatibin" to refer to scribes). The word "saafir" doesn't have anything to do with scribes or writers; it refers to travellers and ambassadors. This root (SFR) is also shown throughout the Quran to be referring to travel, not writing (2184, 185). It even uses the word "asfaar" in 625 to refer to the travelling donkey carrying a cargo of books. People use it to refer to "shining", as many translators have done with 7434, but this is incorrect, and by looking at the preceding verse, it becomes evident
And by the night as it "adbaar", and the morning as it "asfaar". (7433, 34)
Both of these terms refer to travel and movement. The word "abdaar" implies moving away from, while "asfaar" implies something moving closer or drawing near. Therefore, a correct translation of this passage would be
And the night as it departs, and the morning as it draws near/comes close.
8038 doesn't say anything about faces "shining" either; it's speaking about faces being brought forth, or as the PM copy translated it, "openly displayed".
Either way, it doesn't refer to writing or inscribing at all. Also, the word "safaarah" doesn't refer to writers or scribes, it refers to travellers and ambassadors, people who move from one place to another, oftentimes to spread a message or promote ideas.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Either way, it doesn't refer to writing or inscribing at all. Also, the word "safaarah" doesn't refer to writers or scribes, it refers to travellers and ambassadors, people who move from one place to another, oftentimes to spread a message or promote ideas.
Peace,
Ahmad
I think the English word you want is apostle - (apostolos, ?one sent forth?)
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apostle
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Peace WayFinder,
This is incorrect. The word "alsaafir" means "the ambassador", not the scribe/writer. The plural form ("safaarah" refers to travellers or ambassadors. The word for scribe is "kaatiban", which is used this way in the Quran (2283; also 8211 uses the word "kaatibin" to refer to scribes). The word "saafir" doesn't have anything to do with scribes or writers; it refers to travellers and ambassadors. This root (SFR) is also shown throughout the Quran to be referring to travel, not writing (2184, 185). It even uses the word "asfaar" in 625 to refer to the travelling donkey carrying a cargo of books. People use it to refer to "shining", as many translators have done with 7434, but this is incorrect, and by looking at the preceding verse, it becomes evident
Salaam brother,
Check the BOLD and RED above in what you said...
Where do you see a cargo of books in that verse? Where do you see kitaab or koutoub to refer to a cargo of books? When we say a donkey is carrying something, it means it is travelling with it... I am carrying a bag with me, means I am travelling with a bag...
ASFAAR is plural of SIFR which means books, more precisely scriptures... There is no way you can tell what are the donkeys carrying if you do not translate ASFAAR as books...
I am sorry I cannot be active in this thread because my connection is not good, will be fixed in the week insha Allah.
Peace
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Peace WayFinder,
Sorry to hear about your connection. Inshaa Allah, it will be fixed soon so you can continue in this discussion... And you're correct; what I cited is a mistranslation. The word "asfaar" does NOT refer to books or writings at all; it specifically refers to travel. And after looking more indepth into the passage, here is a clearer, more correct translation of it
A similitude of those who were made to endure "altawraata"/the laws/the Torah when they did not endure it is like a similitude of the travelling donkey (or "the donkey enduring the traveller". Bad is the similitude of a people who denied Allah's signs, and Allah does not guide the unjust people. (625)
So, what is the example of the travelling donkey? In this case, it's comparing it to the people who were instructed to follow the Torah, but they didn't maintain their system. This reasoning doesn't have anything to do with a donkey carrying books... Also, since the word "yaahmilu" (endure, carrying) is used before the word "asfaar", it could be referring to a donkey carrying a "traveller", and this traveller would be a guide, just like the Torah was a guide for the children of Israel... Either way, it's not speaking about books at all, and the translation of it being a 'donkey carrying books' is incorrect.
Peace,
Ahmad
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This doesn't make any sense. Muhammad was not illiterate. According to the Quran, the rejectors said
"Myths from the past. He wrote them down as they were dictated to him morning and evening." (255)
By this, they are admitting that Muhammad wrote the Quran with his own hand, and he was NOT illiterate. How can you dictate to an illiterate person to write and read something? 2948 is referring specifically to previous scriptures (Torah and Gospel); it's not referring to the Quran.
I agree
"And they said; tales of old he has written since these are dictated to him morning and evening".
The person to/upon whom something is he is called a writer.
I agree
2948 Neither did you (O Muhammad SAW) read any book before it (this Qur'an), nor did you write any book (whatsoever) with your right hand. In that case, indeed, the followers of falsehood might have doubted.
i dont see the english translation of this verse right at all. is recite not read and i think it is related to god's books, not any book, also concerning the writing it is writing god' s book not any book, and that is because the prophet was OMI, which according to the quran means not from the people of the books and not aware of the previous scriptures, so he never recited or wrote them, as he recited and wrote the quran, and that is exactely what is written in the previous scripture that the coming prophet will be OMI, other wise they will be suspicious. God is telling the people of the book that the prophet never recite or wrote the old scriptures before.
278And amongst them are Gentiles who do not know the Scripture except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.
123We narrate to you the best stories through what We have inspired to you in this Qur?an; and before it you were of those who were unaware.
7157 Those who follow the Gentile messenger prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Injeel.
Also , according to the quran, the prophet did know how to read
17106
I believe, claiming that any prophet was illiterate , is a sort of rediculing and undermining him.
3630 What sorrow for the servants. For every time a messenger went to them, they would ridicule him.
Peace