How was the holy book compiled?
-
Whereas on 255, of we go with the normal translation... there is no clue who dictated the old tales... If we keep thinking that TOUMLAA means to dictate someone to write only... So this difference alone is enough to make you know that 254 and 254 does not have same arrangement...
However, if you check the way I understood the 255, you will see that there is no much questions to be asked... IKTATABA might mean he copied it.. I already talk about an illiterate man capable of copying.... Infact this is the normal process of thinking... I am a teacher myself, if some of my really weak pupils will come up with a homework neatly done... My first reaction will usually be to tell him that he copied it from someone because it is not conceivable for me that he was able to come up with this homework done correctly like this.. it is beyond his ability...
As for the second part of 255... If we translate TOUMLA as to dictate... we will have to answer some more questions to validate it... The SUBJECT for TOUMLAA is feminine... So the one who dictated it on Muhammad should be a feminine?? I have already brought up these questions in my earlier posts...
However, TOUMLAA, as most arabic verbs, has quite large array of meanings... and not only means dictating something to write... It also means, helping, assisting, supporting, backing up etc... Or dictating like Hitler did
If we translate TOUMLAA as SUPPORTING... all the unanswered questions will be solved....
FA HIYA = So these, the old tales
TOUMLAA ALAY= are supporting
HI = him, the messenger
BOUKRATAN = early morning
WA ASWEELAA = till lateIf we translate it like this, the question of the subject of TOUMLA is answered, because as I told earlier, the subject is feminine... and ASAATWEER also is feminine... So ASAATWEER is the real subject here and it is gramatically correct... Also, now the 254 and 255 will be in perfect harmony...
So the meaning so this part of the verse is that, Muhammad is using these ancient tales ( which in turn are helping him) to spread his lies and convince people
As I said, if you have another opinion on this verse, please provide a detail breakdown of the verse and validate your opinion grammatically.{Way Finder}
Perhaps, this may clarify,
And
they said
tales of the pastpast, singular, masculine, third person. He has written down.
feminine, singular, third person, refers to object of
Conjunction, reflecting cause and effect, since
Personal pronoun, feminine, singular, She forAorta, PASSIVE, singular, feminine, third person. It is from . She is being dictated, day and night, to him for writing it down.
For dictating and writing it down one story is to be narrated and written at the given point of time.
Root .
Other than this place, this has been used 9 times at other places in 3178; 7183; 1332; 1946; 2244, 48; 4725 and 6845. Another Root is also relevant to be consulted.Therefore he { } should write down and he should dictate who?.
In response to their false utterances, it is toldPronounce for public information ?This has been sent by the One who knows all the secrets in the skies and the earth.
cannot mean copying unless so told. Arabic is a language of precision. Its Root is . Basic perception and meanings were to conjoin the os {plural ora/mouth-opening] of she-camel?s vulva by means of a ring or thong in order that she might not be covered, even if she sits in heat. It means to bring the mouth of something together, conjoin it and sew it. It is used for writing in which the basic perception of the Root dominates. Writing is nothing except bringing closer the particles/consonants and stitching/sewing them. As is the purpose of stitching the mouth of some receptacle/container, the purpose of writing is to keep the matter preserved, and avoid it being scattered and diminished. When papers containing written matter are brought together, conjoined and sewn, it is called a book , something conjoined and sewn together to secure the matter from being scattered and disintegrated.
The difference between and is that the former is the sound which one throws out of his mouth only to scatter in air and eventually diminish, though it may not lost/destroyed permanently. On the contrary if the same thing which one has , is put in writing {placed in a receptacle, conjoined and sewn together] it will become safe and lasting. The psyche of oral utterances { } is also that it quickly spreads and scatters in the society. This is diametrically opposite to the concept and perception of Arabic word . Therefore, anything said, i.e. thrown out of the mouth as sound articulated in a particular shape of the words of a language of the listener can not be said to be of permanent value in time and space since it could be heard only by those in whose ears it had created vibrations. The basic purpose to achieve from conjoining the os of vulva is to avoid undesirable entrance of undesirable matter. People are bound to add matter of their own perceptions when oral utterances are transmitted in time and place. On the contrary, if that person had also put it in writing, his utterance would go into confinement in a conjoined and static state, and would reach people exactly in the words he had uttered from his mouth.The basic purpose of is to conjoin and sew together and the ultimate objective of is to conjoin and sew people together to make them one unit.
A nation comes into being only when there is a book, social contract, constitution. Let us admit no language of the world can match the Arabic, language of our Lord, the Last Messenger, the elevated and praised one.
-
Salaam Mazaar
Allah already made it clear that Muhammad did not write the Quran... So it wil not avail much discussing what is the right meaning of IKTATABA since it was a false CLAIM by th unbelievers... They said he wrote/copied the Quran and Allah made this clear that he never wrote AL-KITAAB... NEITHER he recited any scripture from before the revelation of AL-KITAAB... We should understand well that these were the false claims of the unbelievers that we are arguing on. They claim the messenger to be a liar, a sorcerer, a soothsayer, and so much more... and he was not like any of these... The claims of the unbelievers were always 100% false and falacy.. So there is no point to argue on their claims and thus trying to use their lies to prove our point.
I consider this case closed... Unless new facts are brought on the table...
Refer back to this post...
Peace Ahmad,
I went through the beginning verses from Surah 29 upto around verse 60... I notice that there is clear misunderstanding (not interpretation) regarding the verse 2948.... From the context of the verse, it is clear that Muhammad did not write the Kitaab with his right hand... At least for me. I even find it quite simple, however, if you have another explanation regarding this, please post back. Check this illustration plz.
http//www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a29de1fee1.gif
We have agreement on this then... KATABA and IKTATABA does not carry the same meaning... Although a verb can share the same root... The variant of verbs we get from a single root is a multitude and some differ quite much from the original root... So, to say that IKTATABA is same as KATABA is wrong... And to say that we cannot derive its meaning as well is wrong also... Because we learn the formation of such verbs in ILM AS SARF ... From a single root verb, FAA-AYN-LAM , we get 9 forms of verb derived from it and they all carry specific meanings derived from the root... One form will show the verb with more preciseness, another form shows the same verb with some force in it... These IX forms shows the different facets and meanings derived from the same root verb... So, we can find the meaning for the verb IKTATABA but will have to study SARF first...
I agree the Sectarian belief is that the prophet was illiterate... And their view regarding the word UMMY, however, UMMY is not the issue here, they misinterpreted/understood it, lets leave them... But if it is sectarian belief and it is approved by the Quran, then we have no reson to trash it... Lies like these have to build up on truth... They take the truth and cover it with lies...
However, the messenger did not write the Quran with his own hands according to my understanding and my explanation above. We tend to ask the reason for such ... The reason is plain simple... It is the PLAN of ALLAH.... He detains the whole knowledge and knows the reason for choosing a messenger who cannot write... However, one reason for this is mentioned in 2948 itself... To refrain the talkers of Vanities from doubting the revelations... And I do believe there are many more reasons behind it.
Allah knows best.
Wassalaam
-
and
particle to render the Perfect verb {}in the negative to distant perfect. It thus renders it to be a matter of distant past.
Singular, second person, past, active; { }.When it is prefixed to Aorta it converts its meaning into past continuous, ?Used to perform the following act?.
Aorta, singular, masculine, second person, read/recite a book. The peculiar feature/characteristic of the Root of this word is to read word by word from the book; no additions/alterations.{And you did not use to read or recite]
some part of the totalreference to time before the present point in time; before
Refers to , the Quran. {Before the revelation of Quran, before its time}
fromany book {to use word scripture for it is ABSOLUTELY incorrect}
and
particle of negation.
Aorta, singular, masculine, second person, read/recite a book. Root .
The basic perception infolded is that of a long line, streak or stripe inscribed on some thing. a written book; book that has been written. Written material on a paper exactly corresponds to the basic perception of the Root, since it appears distinct from the remaining surface of the paper on which it is written. Writing in essence nothing but drawing of lines.
Reference to . A book.
With
Right hand, ,
Your . Possessive pronoun rendering i.e. as ?your personal right hand?[Don?t they notice, feel surprised about their own observation of you reading/reciting word by word and writing the Book}
?And/whereas you did not, in time BEFORE this particular Book- Quran; use to read/recite, word by word, from any book and neither you used to write down/inscribe in lines that book personally with your right hand?. -
Brother Mazhar,
You know Allah does not lack words right? He used the verb YAQRA'OU several times to mean READ/READING .... And YATLOO is just for the Scripture. TILAAWAH and QIRAAT is not the same.
The fact being outline in this verse is that the Messenger did not RECITE any scripture before... Because what he is currently reciting is not a PLAGIARIZE version of what he recited from before. MIN KITAABIN means from any Book, but it is specifically related to scriptures and religions books because of the verb YATLOO is being used. Also MIN KITAABIN is still and INDEFINITE object... and cannot be replaced by DWAMEER 'HOU' ... Whereas we see, AL-KITAAB has been replaced by the DWAMEER 'HI/HOU' all over the verses...
Also, the Quran is being written on straight lines... Ancient manuscripts prove this... TAKHOUTOU means to write by observing the lines and symmetries... Not just plain writing like we scratch on a piece of paper here and there.
Allah knows best.
Wassalaam
-
The fact being outline in this verse is that the Messenger did not RECITE any scripture before... Because what he is currently reciting is not a PLAGIARIZE version of what he recited from before. MIN KITAABIN means from any Book, but it is specifically related to scriptures and religions books because of the verb YATLOO is being used.
kitab is not scripture since scripture is a definite noun.
{Refer 2102}
I hope you agree that were not reading/reciting some scripture. -
Salaam Mazaar
They claim the messenger to be a liar, a sorcerer, a soothsayer, and so much more... and he was not like any of
Pl do not allege something which they never did. They did not say "a soothsayer". In Arabic the word for it is
A person who prophesies, soothsayer, one who predicts, prognosticator, clairvoyant. Such people keep predicting things in the future but are not worth remembering. This is the reason I emphasise that English word "prophet" must not be used while referring to the exalted and chosen Messengers of Allah. They do not predict but give news and glad tidings. In "prediction" and "prophecy" there is always an element of doubt in time and space. -
Pl do not allege something which they never did. They did not say "a soothsayer". In Arabic the word for it is
A person who prophesies, soothsayer, one who predicts, prognosticator, clairvoyant. Such people keep predicting things in the future but are not worth remembering. This is the reason I emphasise that English word "prophet" must not be used while referring to the exalted and chosen Messengers of Allah. They do not predict but give news and glad tidings. In "prediction" and "prophecy" there is always an element of doubt in time and space.Check 5229-31... and 6941-42 Allah is refuting the allegations of Unbelievers... And check 156
In 5229-31 | 6941-42 ... Allah is saying that this is not the word of a Poet, a madman or a soothsayer... The logical question here is why will Allah produce such statements... there is no answer except that such accusations were made against the Messenger of Allah...
And we have confirmation in 156 that the unbelievers are accusing the Messenger of being mad! They are saying and proclaiming it with their own mouth...
And then in 5229-31 | 6941-42 Allah is freeing the Messenger from such evil claims... It is logical that they did accuse the Messenger of being a poet, madman or soothsayer as we have confirmation from 156 that they did proclaim him as a madman.
May Allah increase us in knowledge
Wassalaam
-
madman or soothsayer as we have confirmation from 156 that they did proclaim him as a madman.
A person can be either of the two at one point of time. A madman cannot be considered or called a soothsayer. What they said about the Messenger, that has been told in the Quran through quote, unquote. Allah has nowhere accused them of having used the word for the Messenger. Why should we? Allah is giving information/praising that by His Grace he is not . Allah has highlighted that the Messenger was void of any personality imbalance.
-
Peace
I do not think the reading here imply reading it out from a written medium like a book or manuscript... Because the Quran was being revealed directly to the heart of the Messenger where it was secured... So either he read it to the people... maybe for dictating... or recites it to them as it is said in other verses.
297 Say Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
Also, check 7516-19
So even he was reading it, he was reading it from his heart... Because the one who DIVIDED the Quran in not the messenger but Allah himself. So, it is not the Quran in written form which is being talked about... but the one being revealed as we know from the quran that is was revealed part by part and sometimes, according to particular circumstances.
What do you think?
-
A person can be either of the two at one point of time. A madman cannot be considered or called a soothsayer. What they said about the Messenger, that has been told in the Quran through quote, unquote. Allah has nowhere accused them of having used the word for the Messenger. Why should we? Allah is giving information/praising that by His Grace he is not . Allah has highlighted that the Messenger was void of any personality imbalance.
I think you are missing the point... we have the word MAJNOON in the same verse... And MAJNOON is confirmed that they did accuse th prophet of it. And it give an indication that Allah is refuting their accusations and asking the prophet to proclaim it...
5229
156
215
When Allah is confirming that the messengers are not liars, magicians, soothsayers, madman or possessed... He is infact purifying them from such accusations from unbelievers... Had they did not accuse the messengers as such, and accepted them as the messengers of Allah, there would have been no need for Allah to purify the messengers from these accusations.
Allah knows best.
-
I knew it is typing error XIII is actually VIII. My question was to reconsider and enlighten if it is VII or VIII
I do not have extended knowledge of SWARF and I will need to study more to get a closer meaning.. However, modern dictionaries such as Al-Mawrid and Cowan, translate IKTATABA as to write/copy/make a copy/transcribe
However, I personally see 'TO COPY' to fit the verb in that verse according to my understanding.
Allah knows best
-
I think you are missing the point... we have the word MAJNOON in the same verse... And MAJNOON is confirmed that they did accuse th prophet of it. And it give an indication that Allah is refuting their accusations and asking the prophet to proclaim it...
5229
156
215
When Allah is confirming that the messengers are not liars, magicians, soothsayers, madman or possessed... He is infact purifying them from such accusations from unbelievers... Had they did not accuse the messengers as such, and accepted them as the messengers of Allah, there would have been no need for Allah to purify the messengers from these accusations.
Allah knows best.
Brother I missed nothing. I said this,
"A person can be either of the two at one point of time. A madman cannot be considered or called a soothsayer. What they said about the Messenger, that has been told in the Quran through quote, unquote. Allah has nowhere accused them of having used the word for the Messenger. Why should we? Allah is giving information/praising that by His Grace he is not . Allah has highlighted that the Messenger was void of any personality imbalance
.
And now again look at the above three ayah to notice the difference. The first one does not refer to the saying of other people. And there is not OR. Both negative traits of personality have been negated. Neither this nor that. In the other two the accusations of deniers have been quoted by the word . Have they said ? If not why should we presume they said it? It would be a conjecture, and violation of what has been declared haram, "do not say something attributing it to Allah about which you do not have the knowledge". I think, in consideration of this, we should be quite cautious while studying Quran and saying and writing something. Thanks.YOU HAVE NOT PAID ATTENTION TO MY REQUEST. How you enlarge the Arabic text on the board.
-
I do not have extended knowledge of SWARF and I will need to study more to get a closer meaning.. However, modern dictionaries such as Al-Mawrid and Cowan, translate IKTATABA as to write/copy/make a copy/transcribe
However, I personally see 'TO COPY' to fit the verb in that verse according to my understanding.
Allah knows best
Brother, watch your words. The statement is self contradictory and also gives a negative reflection of one being adament. Pl don't mind this pointation, we are in the process of study.
-
... The claims of the unbelievers were always 100% false and falacy.. So there is no point to argue on their claims and thus trying to use their lies to prove our point.
I consider this case closed... Unless new facts are brought on the table...
Peace,
Exactly what I was trying to underline in my original point. And so I think one should consider whether or not he/she really wants to subscribe to what the attackers of alQuran and the prophet and to further promote their outright rejections, while searching (or claiming to be) for the truth and righteousness?
-
Brother, watch your words. The statement is self contradictory and also gives a negative reflection of one being adament. Pl don't mind this pointation, we are in the process of study.
Brother, I have no problem with your reminder.. we should look at everything in a positive way... hehe
However, I will tell you that I am not self-contradicting myself because I wrote what I read in the dictionary...
Something you need to understand, even if I choose to translate IKTATABA as TO MAKE A COPY/TO COPY... we still HAVE to WRITE that COPY down... To copy a story, I have to write down the copy.. So IKTATABA also carries the meaning of writing... But not writing by one own self/mind, but rather to copy from something else... Look and write...
Also regarding the knowledge of swarf is very important to derive the right meaning of verbs... For instance, all verb in FORM X (form 10) means 'To ask someone to...' ... Just as example, ISTAKTABA would mean 'to ask someone to write' which is different from just 'to write' ...
Again, I already told in earlier post of mine, this is a false claim of the unbelievers and all their claims are 100% false... that part was bypass and the topic switch to 'soothsayer' issue hehe...
The fact is, as I already explained... 2948 makes it clear that the messenger never wrote the AL-KITAAB with his right hand... And this verse itself, is a refutation to the false claims of the unbelievers made in 255
Allah knows best.