GOD vs SATAN
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No its not a non-point because people do make money out of gambling, though I'd agree that majority of them don't. Myself, a few of my friends and several other acquaintences are witness hitherto.
We were not discussing whether people make money out of gambling or not. We were discussing the intention of a person gambling.
I'm sorry but the "Law of Requital" does not apply here because I get what I give towards gambling or any games of chance.
So '$1 in, $million out' is getting what one gives is it? If you say so.
A business in itself is a game of chance.
Business is a model that works much more closely with the 'effort in = benefit out' principle. Gambling is grossly disproportionate to this model.
I don't need Quranic verses or manipulated/twisted injunctions to dictate the relevant issue at hand. We humans have minds, eyes and ears to understand what is bad and what is good to understand its very nature and is true for all non-believers as well.
This is also The Quran's position, i.e. we can inherently determine what is good/bad. Nice to know you agree with The Quran on this ;D
That's a funny/silly answer I'm afraid. What "test" (in your parenthesized version) are you talking about, so to speak? When someone is fortunate enough to "hit the jackpot", wherein and for how long lies the "test" you speak off? When someone hits a jackpock of millions by investing $1, would that someone be blessed or not and by whom (God or Satan); that's the core issue here if you can truely understand the gist of what I'm talking about?
I meant this life when I said "test".
I understand your question clearly, but it is an unanswerable question, as no-one will know the answer until the person's life has ended and they are held to account for what they did. Thus, no-one can say if they were blessed or not. I prefer to have an evidence/logic based discussion, so for example, let's say I said "that someone who hit the jackpot was blessed by God", it would be a baseless opinion, and conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
At this point, I must confess and appreciate that you're the only one who have answered my earlier direct questions but rather in vain and twisted fashion.
Speaking of twisting, it is the path of least resistance that makes men and rivers crooked.
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- Gambling or games of chances are evil abominations as per holy scriptures but thousands of people have bought $1 lotto and became instant millionares and their lives changed around for the better. Were they blessed by God or Satan?
The very idea of making fortune out of nothing, no production and service is Satanic, and people inflicted with such idea are thieves...
Peace,
Edip -
The very idea of making fortune out of nothing, no production and service is Satanic, and people inflicted with such idea are thieves...
Peace,
EdipSalaam
How about getting rich like this "Absolutely anything, yes," Butt said, "If I wasn't going to cash up on it, someone else was going to cash up on it."
http//www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/09/uksecurity-july7Al-Qaida fantasist tells court I'm a professional liarManchester man admits to tricking media into believing he was a jihadi
Vikram Dodd and agencies guardian.co.uk, Monday 9 February 2009 15.32 GMT Article historyA British man who fooled the media into believing he was an al-Qaida insider has admitted in court that he made up the claims.Hassan Butt received significant media attention for his claims to have helped send scores of Britons to terrorist training camps overseas and to have met Mohammad Sidique Khan, the ringleader of the 7 July 2005 attacks on London.
Butt was the former spokesman for the extremist group al-Muhajiroun and was invited to meet a government minister to discuss ways to combat terrorism, as well as featuring heavily in BBC News, national newspaper and US television reports on al-Qaida.
However at a trial of another man accused of terrorist offences, Butt said he had told journalists stories "the media wanted to hear", admitting that he was "a professional liar". He also admitted faking his own injuries to make it appear that he had been attacked by extremist Muslims.
Butt was arrested in 2008 over his planned autobiography Leaving Al Qaeda Inside The Life And Mind of a British Jihadist, in which he was planning to claim involvement in the US consulate attack in Karachi, Pakistan, in June 2002, which killed 12 people.
The book was being co-authored by freelance journalist Shiv Malik, who became a media cause celebre after counter terrorism officers demanded he hand over his notes.
But in court Butt agreed he had taken Malik for a "right patsy".
Cross-examined by Andrew Edis QC, prosecuting, Butt was asked "So, you were a professional liar then?
Butt replied "I would make money, yes."
Edis continued "If the money's right you'll say absolutely anything?"
"Absolutely anything, yes," Butt said, "If I wasn't going to cash up on it, someone else was going to cash up on it."
Butt's admissions at Manchester crown court were made in December and can be reported today because legal restrictions have been lifted. It is understood Greater Manchester Police's counter-terrorism unit, who arrested Butt, are satisfied he is a fantasist, albeit one with links to three convicted terrorists.
In 2007 he wrote he had left the "British jihadi network" of which he claimed the 7/7 London bomber Mohammad Sidique Khan was a member ? someone he said he had met on two occasions.
He went on to hold talks with former security minister Tony McNulty who Butt said "absolutely loved" his ideas on reforming radicals.
He confessed he had also stabbed himself in the arm to make it appear as if he had been attacked by extremists for speaking out against violence.
Speaking of Malik, Butt told the jury "I guess he wanted to make his career out of the back of my story. Many people were making a career out of being former radicals. I had to take it one step further and actually say I was a terrorist, which wasn't true.
"At no point have I ever been training, have I ever been a jihadi. Yes, I did study their theology. Yes, I did study their ideas because that then came into part of how to actually counter this. And that changed to a fact of, well we need to keep as many young Muslims away from these people. And in order to do that I needed to understand the mindset in the first place."
After terrorists struck London in 2005, Butt renounced his previous talk of violence and set himself up as an expert in countering al-Qaida. Moderate Muslim groups he had previously branded as sell outs, such as the Muslim council of Britain, he decided to label as extremists.
Butt, 28, of Cheetham Hill, Manchester, has been arrested on five occasions by counter-terrorism officers ? November 2002, November 2003, December 2004, October 2007 and May 2008. Each time he was released without charge.
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The very idea of making fortune out of nothing, no production and service is Satanic, and people inflicted with such idea are thieves...
You failed to answer a direct question.Gamblers are not thieves and they invest/purchase towards returns, not out of nothing. Gamblers need skills, investment and ofcourse "luck".
Perhaps you can take a second shot at the following question where others and your goodself have failed to present straightforward answers
"Gambling or games of chances are evil abominations as per holy scriptures but thousands of people have bought $1 lotto and became instant millionares and their lives changed around for the better. Were they blessed by God or Satan?"
Thanks.
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Peace,
2219 - They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,
590 - O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
591 - The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?
Gambling is an evil act per above verses and therefore any gain from it can not be a blessing from The God.
??. bought $1 lotto and became instant millionares and their lives changed around for the better.?
Please define what is better?
There is a TV show which showed what ever happened to the lotto millionaires. I saw it quite a few years ago. I remember most (if not all) of the winners life were ruined. They wished they hadn?t won the lotto.
Also note that The God is capable of doing anything but He will not do bad things because He is bound (voluntarily) by His own laws i.e. He will always be just, merciful, good, etc.
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prissy-Now, how can one prove in their conscious or subconscious minds that anything that happens is either from God or from Satan considering the hypothetical belief or claim that Satan is a deceiver and can make anything look good to begin with and at the same time God Almighty throws out His big punch in retribution or annihilation? (The fable of Ibrahim's preconceived thought to slaughter his son Ismail is a classic example of two faces of the same coin).
I am looking at it this way Nothing thathappens can be from the power of satan, considering the hypothetical belief that God is the Lone Power. In the very least, I am not aware of any quranic verse which allows this possibility.
Everything happens under the control of God. And this is a quraanic assertion.
The question then, as regards gambling, is whether the money thus procured is "good/right" or "bad/wrong". If u believe in quraanic injunctions (and hypothetically allow gambling to be prohibited) then u know it is "bad" money.
It is not that satan blesses a fella & he goes on to win a lottery (perhaps the reason why not every intoxicated gambler is winning lotteries). Nor is it God's good cheer. It's simply the gambler (& his "good" luck?).
Thanks for the good question. -)
God bless all.
alhamd li Allaah Rabb alaalameen
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I am looking at it this way Nothing thathappens can be from the power of satan, considering the hypothetical belief that God is the Lone Power. In the very least, I am not aware of any quranic verse which allows this possibility.
The Islamic God created Satan out of an angel with lots of power, as per the Quran (717).Everything happens under the control of God.
If that's the case, then surely HE has two faces (dual personalites ~ perhaps HE is a Gemini ). You keep mentioning "hypothetical belief in God", yet certain in advocation. Quite stunning.The question then, as regards gambling, is whether the money thus procured is "good/right" or "bad/wrong". If u believe in quraanic injunctions (and hypothetically allow gambling to be prohibited) then u know it is "bad" money.
The fortune procured by gambling is always in "good faith" because people don't gamble to INTENTIONALLY loose and it'll be damned if Satan blessed you with money to better yours and/or someone's lives inspite of God's prohibition. But then blessings seems to ONLY come from God (as per Muslims/Religionists) since God can ONLY be merciful and gracious BUT this very God also brings about catastrophic/natual disasters and miserable dreadful deaths and destructions, not to mention about HIS sophiscated threats, annihilations and the Hell dilemma. This so-called Religious male supernatural fathomable yet fathomless GOD has two faces of the same coin.I must confess that this forum is the ONLY website in the Islamic/Muslim World to be tolerant enough of "freedom of speech" in its proper perspectives and most members here seem to be civil enough to discuss/debate issues without personal attacks and hope it stays that way (perhaps in this thread/topic of great relevance). Bravo!!!
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The Islamic God created Satan out of an angel with lots of power, as per the Quran (717).
If that's the case, then surely HE has two faces (dual personalites ~ perhaps HE is a Gemini ). You keep mentioning "hypothetical belief in God", yet certain in advocation. Quite stunning.
The fortune procured by gambling is always in "good faith" because people don't gamble to INTENTIONALLY loose and it'll be damned if Satan blessed you with money to better yours and/or someone's lives inspite of God's prohibition. But then blessings seems to ONLY come from God (as per Muslims/Religionists) since God can ONLY be merciful and gracious BUT this very God also brings about catastrophic/natual disasters and miserable dreadful deaths and destructions, not to mention about HIS sophiscated threats, annihilations and the Hell dilemma. This so-called Religious male supernatural fathomable yet fathomless GOD has two faces of the same coin.Prissy you sound do much like Al Pacino in "the Devil's Advocate" I hope you have seen this movie, if not pleas make sure you watch it and you may find may find it quite amusing.
peace -
The fortune procured by gambling is always in "good faith" because people don't gamble to INTENTIONALLY loose and it'll be damned if Satan blessed you with money to better yours and/or someone's lives inspite of God's prohibition.
Are you once again confused between intention and the actual product at the end, e.g. more money?
But then blessings seems to ONLY come from God (as per Muslims/Religionists)...
I think you'll find that is "blessings" in the true sense of the word, as defined per Quran.
...since God can ONLY be merciful and gracious BUT this very God also brings about catastrophic/natual disasters and miserable dreadful deaths and destructions, not to mention about HIS sophiscated threats, annihilations and the Hell dilemma.
Do you also pause films halfway through and pass judgement on its characters, irrespective of ending?
Does your "logic" propose a system in which "catastrophic/natual disasters and miserable dreadful deaths and destructions" do not occur? If so, please tell us how this would work.
I must confess that this forum is the ONLY website in the Islamic/Muslim World to be tolerant enough of "freedom of speech" in its proper perspectives
Being tolerant also includes allowing one to post depsite displaying repeated erroneous logic. Your initial question may have been somewhat thought provoking, but your reaction is telling. I assume you have sailed through many forums, unsatisfied with the answers you were given (or being banned) and ended up here. Ever thought the problem might be you and not your question?
Just a suggestion.
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Sorry friend but I'm not here to debate and discuss movies and actors.
I am not discussing a movie but its content which ?may? enlighten you and answer many of the questions you raised here. I rarely recommend movies, you would be surprised how accurately Al Pacino deals with your concerns hmm much better than Waka's .
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Are you once again confused between intention and the actual product at the end, e.g. more money?
No I am not confused between intention and end product for the simple reason that both intention and end product of gambling is to make money/fortune/better life. People invest in all sorts of businesses to make money; and there's always a win/lose situation regardless of whether its from Satan or God (two faces of the same coin).Do you also pause films halfway through and pass judgement on its characters, irrespective of ending?
I'm not talking about films, movies or actors; LOL!Does your "logic" propose a system in which "catastrophic/natual disasters and miserable dreadful deaths and destructions" do not occur? If so, please tell us how this would work.
Say what??? Are you telling me that natural disasters and miserable deaths and destructions do not occur. If they do, then by whom? Satan or God?Being tolerant also includes allowing one to post depsite displaying repeated erroneous logic. Your initial question may have been somewhat thought provoking, but your reaction is telling. I assume you have sailed through many forums, unsatisfied with the answers you were given (or being banned) and ended up here. Ever thought the problem might be you and not your question?
My repetition of my previous questions is obviously due to direct unanswerable, irrelevant or hogwashed replies by the members twisting and dancing around.Can you logically and reasonably accept that a religious supernatural male deity is both a Satan and a God; hence the two faces of the same coin? If not, what is (are) your proofs/evidences to support this notion? Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.
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I am not discussing a movie but its content which ?may? enlighten you and answer many of the questions you raised here. I rarely recommend movies, you would be surprised how accurately Al Pacino deals with your concerns hmm much better than Waka's .
Are you confessing that Al Pacino as an actor is better in his movies than Muhammad or Allah in his Quran? As I said, I'm not talking movies or actors. Equating examples of Al Pacino or his movies viz-a-viz Muhammad (allah ~ the god) and His holy scripture seems to be the same as per your analogy. -
Are you confessing that Al Pacino as an actor is better in his movies than Muhammad or Allah in his Quran? As I said, I'm not talking movies or actors. Equating examples of Al Pacino or his movies viz-a-viz Muhammad (allah ~ the god) and His holy scripture seems to be the same as per your analogy.
Why are you trying to extract confession out of others for you typical assertions, these are very well answered in Andrew Neiderman novel "the Devil's Advocate" Read that and then come up with something new worth discussing.
peace -
Why are you trying to extract confession out of others for you typical assertions, these are very well answered in Andrew Neiderman novel "the Devil's Advocate" Read that and then come up with something new worth discussing.
Can't you answer simple questions without quoting non-Muslim non-quranic figures. If you think that one must read "The Devil's Advocate" authored by Andrew Neiderman, then what's the purpose of Quran authored by your Islamic Allah? Is Andrew Neiderman's book superior to your Allah's holy book? -
Can't you answer simple questions without quoting non-Muslim non-quranic figures. If you think that one must read "The Devil's Advocate" authored by Andrew Neiderman, then what's the purpose of Quran authored by your Islamic Allah? Is Andrew Neiderman's book superior to your Allah's holy book?
Let me remind you what you said in your Reply #19 on February 06, 2009, 024440 AM ?
I don't need Quranic verses or manipulated/twisted injunctions to dictate the relevant issue at hand. We humans have minds, eyes and ears to understand what is bad and what is good to understand its very nature and is true for all non-believers as well.
You definately need to understand the repercussion of such acts, if you read the book I reccommended or watch the movie you would find all the answers and after that you can take this discussion further,(from non-belivers's point of view).
peace -
Let me remind you what you said in your Reply #19 on February 06, 2009, 024440 AM ? If you read the book I reccommended or watch the movie you would find all the answers there including the one I highlighed in red.
Let me reiterate that if I can find all the answers in a non-Muslim book or a movie, then what good is the Quran? Are movies and actors the TRUTH? I think you have no idea what you're talking about? But then again the topic is about Satan vs God which has taken quite a drastic turn by Muslim/Quran Aloner apologists; so please stick to it. Thanks. -
Let me reiterate that if I can find all the answers in a non-Muslim book or a movie, then what good is the Quran? I think you have no idea what you're talking about? But then again the topic is about Satan vs God which has taken quite a drastic turn by Muslim/Quran Aloner apologists; so please stick to it. Thanks.
What good is the Qur'an for you this is the question for you not for anyone else, the Qur'an it has all the answers but only for those who are blessed to find it there. You wanted a worldly answer and I gave you a source as for that what?s wrong in that?
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the Qur'an it has all the answers but only for those who are blessed to find it there.
if you read the book I reccommended or watch the movie you would find all the answers
yeah elektroI'm afraid you're jesting, dodging, shivering and have no idea what you're talking about. Let me remind you that the topic is about YOUR GOD vs SATAN (two faces of the same coin). In other words, The God (Allah) who is both a merciful and an evil one AS PER YOUR HOLY BOOK QURAN. I can present seveal veses of the Quran as evident; but ofcourse Muslims ONLY justify the good side of their GOD, not HIS evil side. Very strange, irrational and illogical indeed; both from scriptural, hypothetical and mystical point of views and as well as from logical, natural and scientific point of views. I'm afraid you're utterly one sidedly deluded and bent upon relentlessy regardless of any justifications (I'm sorry to state that this is what Islam has been all about).
Besides, you cannot have both ways of having all the answers in a non_Muslim book or video authored by a non-prophet of God in comparison with a book or video authored by a Muslim or a Muslim prophet of God. Come to think of it, it is simply a very silly and strange analogy. (no pun intended).
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prissy-The Islamic God created Satan out of an angel with lots of power, as per the Quran (717).
Methinks it is the biblical satan who happens to be a fallen angel, the quraanic satan is apparently a djinn. And the quraanic satan had accused the quraanic God of having caused him to err. Noteworthily, the quraanic God is pretty adamant that it is not His desire to wrong anybody!
If that's the case, then surely HE has two faces (dual personalites ~
Why would His being in control make Him have two personalities?
perhaps HE is a Gemini ).
A gemini....hmm.
I have heard things like god was a hidden treasure wanting to be recognised , & treasure can be a gem; so god thought "(know the) gem in me"....ergo "gemini"
hmm....not bad. -)
You keep mentioning "hypothetical belief in God", yet certain in advocation. Quite stunning.
I am certain in as much as i am able to allow myself; the reason i mention "hypothetical" is that u reduced a quraanic assertion (satan deceives) to a mere hypothesis.
I have to try & look at things from ur point of view. -)
The fortune procured by gambling is always in "good faith" because people don't gamble to INTENTIONALLY loose and it'll be damned if Satan blessed you with money to better yours and/or someone's lives inspite of God's prohibition.
I attempted to explain that money is not good or bad per se, it is the means of procuring that can be good or bad. There is no question of satan blessing somebody with money of his own power in opposition to God's. Let the credit/blame for the gambler's (good or bad) luck fall squarely on God; the poor little devil is quite helpless against his Lord. -)
But then blessings seems to ONLY come from God (as per Muslims/Religionists) since God can ONLY be merciful and gracious BUT this very God also brings about catastrophic/natual disasters and miserable dreadful deaths and destructions, not to mention about HIS sophiscated threats, annihilations and the Hell dilemma. This so-called Religious male supernatural fathomable yet fathomless GOD has two faces of the same coin.
Blessings & all things come from God Alone, & v end up extracting from Him what is due to us. -)
At the same time i appreciate ur concerns, & such concerns make the message of the quraan an invaluable "gem".
The narrative of abraham is superlative also for its message against laxity of belief.
I must confess that this forum is the ONLY website in the Islamic/Muslim World to be tolerant enough of "freedom of speech" in its proper perspectives and most members here seem to be civil enough to discuss/debate issues without personal attacks and hope it stays that way (perhaps in this thread/topic of great relevance). Bravo!!!
Yeah....u mentioned the key ingredient....civility on both sides. -)
God bless all.
alhamd li Allaah Rabb alaalameen
