GOD vs SATAN
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Prissy,
The subject here is that the muslims have taken something as God that has the ingredients both good and bad; if bad is joined with the God then it is totally bad. Muslims' God is bad. Prissy, you have taken the right topic for a righteous discussion.
Thus goes the creation by the Creator
The man is the ultimate of the creations and the whole universe must be subservient to him when he is taught by His God and when he imbibes the wisdom which by its Grace and Power will surely rule over everything that are in the heavens and in the earth.
First, He created the earth and then raised the heavens above as seven firmaments. And placed every natural splendor and produce on the earth for all living creatures and for man.
551 He is such a Benevolent and Gracious, God, the Ample Giving! He also has created the same generosity in man's heart which if he puts to non-stop use for just purposes benevolently as enjoined by Him, then more and more glad tidings from Him has been the Word for man.
55 2 And before man's creation He taught the order of Quran to the heavens and the earth and everything in between that shall be subservient to man; and shall wait in all readiness until His Leave comes forth, to submit with their might and power when the Will of a man is Righteously in the path of Allah! And if a man is erring and faltering, accordingly the universal truth shall reach out to them teaching their faults; such that when we err, we are taught a lesson. Every thing around us teaches each of us lessons according to the degree of each one's error. If the degree of error is greater, edging upon sinning, then there is a lesson for us, sure! Such as an adversity that might befall us which comes from our own vicinity, as a deterrent. In other words it is a blessing in disguise to put us back on the straight path by Allah's Leave. If we are aggressively disobedient to the natural warnings and as a whole the community has fallen, and the people have gone astray, the natural calamity strikes at the very base of all livelihood eliminating the people, cleansing the surface of the earth of the bad elements thus paving way for the new generations to inherit the land back in all its revived glory. Thus according to the Quran the whole nature around taking our minutes into account, either rewarding us by submitting to our Will, or punish us with just recompense for the aggressive evil that we continue to do, despite the respite and reprieve and repeated warnings that we had received. Thus in the entire universe, the programming was made for the survival of the righteous; and not for the survival of the fittest as we commonly believe. Good for good; bad for Bad; evil for evil is the order upon the universe that it shall obey with reference to man as prescribed in Quran.
55 3 Now in the third stage He Created Man. And with Him the wisdom of the heavens and the earth as Allah taught Adam. And with that the criterion, to distinguish between the good and the bad; the inherent wish and obedience towards the righteousness. This is worshiping; worshiping the none but the Most High, in righteousness!
55 4 Taught the Man The Expression of Quran as Revelation through Wahy, the Intuition! With every wahy that a man is taught, he gains distinct supremacy over the evil surrounding him, the likeness of which he has conquered within himself. This happens with the help of the entire universal obedience to him at the behest of Allah. Now all the armies hidden in the heavens and the earth belong to Him. For the prophets Dawud and Sulaiman a part of such army submitted to them by His Command.
Then with regard to children, even if they are molested no harm is done to them either physically or mentally. What you speak and discuss about such things here, they are purely mechanical review of the events and situations but what happens with Allah is just the opposite and best in recompense. There is no suffering for them in the least. An example to this is, that of a child uttering all weird things during the height of fever running for a few days. We were worried about the child very deeply at that point; but the child is not at all suffering. This you will understand later on, when you say to your child "O my child, you suffered during fever like hell and you were blabbering!" To this the child will say "Really?!"
So what you see is different; and what actually happens with God is different! In the case of Esa, they think they had crucified him and killed him. To their eyes, yes! But the Truth is he is neither crucified nor killed!
Salaam.
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Prissy,
You said ??.but I already explained that gambling is neither bad nor evil (i.e. satanic).? ? Wrong. Gambling is bad because it is a satanic invention. He gives false hope to deceive people. Please remember that satan was not created evil rather he was given the ability to become an evil. There is a big difference between creating a being that has the ability to commit/not commit evil and committing the evil act itself. Satan committed an evil act and thus brought The God?s curse on himself. Now his mission is to do what The God forbids. The God warns us not to follow him. If we do then our fate will be the same as his. If the God did not warns us or guide us then I could see the other side of the coin you are talking about. But The God did guide us, and hence your thoughts are invalid. In my opinion you are committing a horrendous crime against your soul by maintaining such position. If you are honestly seeking knowledge to clarify your understanding then certainly The God will answer you call, I believe.
You say ?If it was purely a ?satanic system?, then people would never be "blessed" with fortune and everyone who gambles MUST lose; but that is NEVER the case.? ? Wrong again. People are blessed by The God for obeying His commandments i.e. worship Him alone, giving charity, not gambling ?. The God said ?the more you thank Me, the more I give you?. However all gambler (e.g. lotto) must lose because they are playing a satanic system. The act of gambling is recorded as a bad deed. Therefore, gamblers are loser. The gambler may offset this bad deed with a good deed but that is not the subject of discussion here. I am glad that you got the idea that ?everyone who gambles MUST lose?, yes, that is what I am saying. That is ALWAYS the case. Every time you gamble you earn a bad deed.
You say ?When you win the outcome is good, not bad.? ? Wrong again. The apparent fortune you win by playing lotto will certainly bring misfortune in your life unless you have countered the bad deed with a good deed such as asking forgiveness from The God, obeying His command. Define good and I will give you a real life example of lotto winner that will contradict your definition.
You say ?The tug-of-war seems to be ALWAYS between Satan and God, not humans; as per your religous beliefs, not mine; simply because Satan and God are one and the same ... two faces of the same coin deceiving us humans.? ? Wrong. The concept you are advocating is a satanic concept. My belief is The God is absolute. Therefore, nothing you can think of can be compared to Him. There is Only ONE God. All Power belongs to Him and Him alone. The independence and the power we possess are relative i.e. minuscule compare to His absolute Power.
The God has created the system that is good and just. Here is the input/output relationship of the system
Good deeds (input)-------- Good reward (eternal bliss)
Bad deeds ------------------Bad reward (burn in hell forever)Bad deeds are performed by satan and the ones who follow him. The God created the humans and the jinns to worship him alone. And this is a perfect system to distinguish the good from the bad. The God created us and ordered us not to commit evil acts. Evil disappears from the Earth if we do not commit evil acts. Then what happens to your logic? You have to demonstrate your logic is logical in every possible scenario.
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In your previous posts, you admitted that there exists an entity named Satan, which, by your own contention is now an illusion nope
No, you just misunderstood my statement... I believe there is a such thing as a "satan", but he's not a rival god like many perceive him to be. In reality, the Qur'aan and the Tavrah never mention anyone named "Satan", and instead, they always refer to this being as "the satan" (or "al-shaytaan". This satan is not an invisible spirit misleading the nations, it's a person's own carnal desires. It can also be presented in the form of an evil or wicked person who rejects God's system... Other forms of what we perceive as "evil" or "harmful" come from God in the form of tests to our loyalty and integrity. The case of Job (Ayyub) is a perfect example of this. He wasn't being persecuted by anyone named "Satan", he was tested by God... When I mentioned the Biblical story, I was speaking of the common interpretation of the story of Job, not the actual scripture. In the Biblical account, Job was accused by "the satan" of only worshipping God because of the blessings bestowed upon him. So, to test Job's perseverance and dedication, God stripped Job of all his possessions. What is necessary to note is that the Biblical account never speaks of this "satan" and the other "sons of God" being in the heavens, and it says they 'came to present themselves before the Lord'. This doesn't apply to angelic beings, since they're always in God's presence. Therefore, these must've been human people (who, during this period, were often called sons or children of God) gathering to worship God, and a "satan" (rejector) came amongst them in an attempt to discredit the righteousness of Job...
The Qur'aan says
Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you? They were tested with hardship and adversity, and were shaken up, until the messenger and those who believed with him said, "Where is God's victory?" God's victory is near. (2214)
This scripture clearly implies that this hardship and adversity comes from God to test our patience and endurance; it doesn't come from "Satan". The one called "al-shaytaan" doesn't have the power to harm anyone, and he/it can only 'whisper' and entice us to commit wrongdoing. This is completely different from God, Who has the power to do all things, to the point of completely annihilating entire nations, as He did with the city of Sodom and the countries of Babylon and Egypt.
Thus, your illusioned God or Allah is both good and bad. In other words both graceful and disgraceful; merciful and evil (two faces of the same coin).
This is wrong too... God doesn't "wrong" anyone, He simply tests and punishes, which can come in the form of apparent harm. This doesn't make God "bad", though. Since He knows all things, He knows the consequences of certain actions and circumstances, and He does many things that people may see as "wrong", but they are beneficial to us later in life. Some people win the lottery and it completely corrupts them. However, when you see them years later, many of them have become humiliated, and some are poorer than they were before the won the lottery. Some people win the lottery and they become appreciative to God and helpful to needy ones, and many of them still have their money and very few worries. That's why the Qur'aan says that gambling is a form of the satan's handiwork, because many people become haughty and they abandon God, and this only leads to humiliation and eventual divine punishment...
Gambling is not forbidden in the scriptures; rather, we are told to be cautious when it comes to gambling and intoxicants, and their harm far outweighs their benefits.
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Drfazl,
When the harm is more, should it be construed as allowed. However cautious you are God has already given the end result as red!
Still, God cautions us against forbidding the things that He has not declared forbidden; He is the best judge and lawmaker. Just because something is 'more bad than good' doesn't make it forbidden. Indeed, smoking is bad for the health, and I don't know of any real benefits to it at all. Yet, God doesn't forbid smoking to the believers; it is therefore allowed and at the discretion of the individual submitter.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Ahmad Bilal
Now it is up to any body to assess if harm is more than the good, what remains is harm; it is a guidance for those who understand. Certainly most things in Quran is not spoon fed but left to one's own discretion to be understood due to prayerful reflection.
Peace.
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Drfazl,
Now it is up to any body to assess if harm is more than the good, what remains is harm; it is a guidance for those who understand. Certainly most things in Quran is not spoon fed but left to one's own discretion to be understood due to prayerful reflection.
Agreed. The Qur'aan is a guidance and a light for those who take heed...
Peace,
Ahmad
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The Qur'aan is a guidance and a light for those who take heed...
And so are gazillion other books/narrations but that does not negate the fact that Satan and God as illusioned are one and the same, just different flavours in how one perceives them. One can envision the fable of God vs Satan in the story of Abraham and Ismail. -
And so are gazillion other books/narrations but that does not negate the fact that Satan and God as illusioned are one and the same, just different flavours in how one perceives them. One can envision the fable of God vs Satan in the story of Abraham and Ismail.
May be in your story too! Msake it easy to gamble away your parents values and have fun fun fun yes
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Prissy,
You said ??.but I already explained that gambling is neither bad nor evil (i.e. satanic).? ? Wrong. Gambling is bad because it is a satanic invention. He gives false hope to deceive people. Please remember that satan was not created evil rather he was given the ability to become an evil. There is a big difference between creating a being that has the ability to commit/not commit evil and committing the evil act itself. Satan committed an evil act and thus brought The God?s curse on himself. Now his mission is to do what The God forbids. The God warns us not to follow him. If we do then our fate will be the same as his. If the God did not warns us or guide us then I could see the other side of the coin you are talking about. But The God did guide us, and hence your thoughts are invalid. In my opinion you are committing a horrendous crime against your soul by maintaining such position. If you are honestly seeking knowledge to clarify your understanding then certainly The God will answer you call, I believe.
You say ?If it was purely a ?satanic system?, then people would never be "blessed" with fortune and everyone who gambles MUST lose; but that is NEVER the case.? ? Wrong again. People are blessed by The God for obeying His commandments i.e. worship Him alone, giving charity, not gambling ?. The God said ?the more you thank Me, the more I give you?. However all gambler (e.g. lotto) must lose because they are playing a satanic system. The act of gambling is recorded as a bad deed. Therefore, gamblers are loser. The gambler may offset this bad deed with a good deed but that is not the subject of discussion here. I am glad that you got the idea that ?everyone who gambles MUST lose?, yes, that is what I am saying. That is ALWAYS the case. Every time you gamble you earn a bad deed.
You say ?When you win the outcome is good, not bad.? ? Wrong again. The apparent fortune you win by playing lotto will certainly bring misfortune in your life unless you have countered the bad deed with a good deed such as asking forgiveness from The God, obeying His command. Define good and I will give you a real life example of lotto winner that will contradict your definition.
You say ?The tug-of-war seems to be ALWAYS between Satan and God, not humans; as per your religous beliefs, not mine; simply because Satan and God are one and the same ... two faces of the same coin deceiving us humans.? ? Wrong. The concept you are advocating is a satanic concept. My belief is The God is absolute. Therefore, nothing you can think of can be compared to Him. There is Only ONE God. All Power belongs to Him and Him alone. The independence and the power we possess are relative i.e. minuscule compare to His absolute Power.
The God has created the system that is good and just. Here is the input/output relationship of the system
Good deeds (input)-------- Good reward (eternal bliss)
Bad deeds ------------------Bad reward (burn in hell forever)Bad deeds are performed by satan and the ones who follow him. The God created the humans and the jinns to worship him alone. And this is a perfect system to distinguish the good from the bad. The God created us and ordered us not to commit evil acts. Evil disappears from the Earth if we do not commit evil acts. Then what happens to your logic? You have to demonstrate your logic is logical in every possible scenario.
I'm sorry to say that you are wrong on all counts for the simple reason that gambling is NOT EVIL. There are countless variations of gambling and as a matter of fact, LIFE itself is a gamble (just to point an example); hence by your suggested token, life itself can also be evil or bad, which I confer (i.e. anything in life is be a gamble). -
May be in your story too! Msake it easy to gamble away your parents values and have fun fun fun yes
Trust me, people even gamble away their own children (as in arranged marriages or even in love marriages that don't work out), let alone parents, businesses, sports, health, etc., etc.
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And so are gazillion other books/narrations but that does not negate the fact that Satan and God as illusioned are one and the same, just different flavours in how one perceives them. One can envision the fable of God vs Satan in the story of Abraham and Ismail.
I can understand part of your concept. Many of the things that many perceive to be from "Satan" are actually tests from God. This, however, doesn't make God "evil" or "satanic" at all. To understand the total idea, you have to recognize the unity/oneness of God, that He brings both good and bad, and that He is the creator of all things. Many negative things come from human carnal desires, and humans are capable of many "evil" and "satanic" actions and ideas.
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Prissy,
Here is some additional thought on your assertion "If people have 'evil/bad' intention/urge to gamble because they are deceived by Satan, then God also had His 'evil/bad' intentions to create Satan in the first place in order to deceive His own creation, ..."
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If you have money, you do what ever you want with it. No one has any right to force you (assuming you are an adult person) to use money differently. People may suggest but you have the final say. You have this power.
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If someone has the brain to design an airplane, he does it. He has this power.
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We can cite many other example of similar nature.
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The God is all powerful and He does what ever He wills with it. No one else has any say in it. He is The Creator and you are His creation. You do what ever He wants you to do. He has given you (us) the ability to commit good or bad deeds but He wants you to do good and shun the evil. He defines for you (us) what is good and bad.
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Creation of satan does not make the the Creator satan. You disagree (see above quote) because of punishment associated with committing bad deeds - bad logic. I will use some worldly examples to show how illogical your quote is.
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You will call all the moms of the world evil because they would punish the child for disobeying their order even though moms have very good intention
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You will call the inventor of the airplane evil because his system kills people via accident
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You will call designer of justice system (US/UK) evil because it punishes bad people
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You will call police system evil because the system causes death to policeman
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You will call rescue mission designer evil because it causes the death of rescuer every once in a while
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Prissy, see how flawed you logic is. No wonder why you give bad attribute to The God unjustly. We can not thank Him enough for what He has given us. You are unappreciative person. Why dint you refuse the responsibility when offered to you?
I suggest that you withdraw the question, repent, and become an appreciative person.
Peace.
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Prissy, see how flawed you logic is. No wonder why you give bad attribute to The God unjustly. We can not thank Him enough for what He has given us. You are unappreciative person. Why dint you refuse the responsibility when offered to you?
I suggest that you withdraw the question, repent, and become an appreciative person.
Peace.
Salaam,
It is sad but there is something troubling people that makes them never appreciate the blessings around them; instead foucusing all their attention on the negative forces. pr
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I can understand part of your concept. Many of the things that many perceive to be from "Satan" are actually tests from God. This, however, doesn't make God "evil" or "satanic" at all. To understand the total idea, you have to recognize the unity/oneness of God, that He brings both good and bad, and that He is the creator of all things. Many negative things come from human carnal desires, and humans are capable of many "evil" and "satanic" actions and ideas.
Likewise, many of the things that many perceive to be from "God" are actually deceptive and evil in nature (the story of Abraham having a dream by Allah to slaughter his own son). The underlying question is that if God brings both good AND bad, then HE cannot possibly be All Merciful and All Gracious for the simple reason that the words merciful and gracious are connoted to good; but what about the bad stuff that this God of yours delegates so graciously and unwittingly by His "evil Will". For example, disease and destruction upon His own innocent creatures by natural catostrophic phenomenon purported by His own (God's) laws, not Satan's. But then this God also creates an evil being called Satan to deceive His own creation in-spite of Him being All Powerful to do the same in-spite of Him bringing about the "bad" and as well as "good". What a flawed and deceptive logic to accomodate both good and bad whilst declaring and dancing around a forced one-sided track of goodness by Muslims?
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I will use some worldly examples to show how illogical your quote is.
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You will call all the moms of the world evil because they would punish the child for disobeying their order even though moms have very good intention
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You will call the inventor of the airplane evil because his system kills people via accident
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You will call designer of justice system (US/UK) evil because it punishes bad people
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You will call police system evil because the system causes death to policeman
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You will call rescue mission designer evil because it causes the death of rescuer every once in a while
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Prissy, see how flawed you logic is.
So you present your own half baked and deceptive wordly examples out of thin air to prove your point and then call it my flawed logic. You just butchered the word "logic". Apparently reason and truth does not fit well with you and obviously with ALL religionists. Now, by giving such examples, were you deceived by Satan or God? -
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So you present your own half baked and deceptive wordly examples out of thin air to prove your point and then call it my flawed logic. You just butchered the word "logic". Apparently reason and truth does not fit well with you and obviously with ALL religionists. Now, by giving such examples, were you deceived by Satan or God?
Logic is a practically useless word fit for word fighting in a fit of rage
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Prissy, you say ?But then once again, Satan and God are two faces of the same coin having different attributes.?
For your information, a coin has three faces. You forgot about the thickness of the coin (the edge). You cannot make a coin that has only two faces. How do you factor in the third side of a coin in your thought process? Please enlighten us? Peace.
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In one of my very earlier posts I had mentioned that God and Satan are two faces of the same coin and the difference only lies in attributes. When people are blessed with fortune, joyous and good tidings come their way, they immediately exalt, revere and thank God Almighty. But when misfortune happens, calamity befalls them and wrongdoings "justified" (or not) they become egoistical, emotional and zealously pragmatic to allege that it is either a "test" from God Almighty or its Satan's perfidy and start cussing on this "other side" of coin.
Now, how can one prove in their conscious or subconscious minds that anything that happens is either from God or from Satan considering the hypothetical belief or claim that Satan is a deceiver and can make anything look good to begin with and at the same time God Almighty throws out His big punch in retribution or annihilation? (The fable of Ibrahim's preconceived thought to slaughter his son Ismail is a classic example of two faces of the same coin).
Raca.
Edit Okay, I'm not being fair to the OP.
Peace be unto you,
I'm enjoying my morning cuppa while perusing these forums when I came upon your post. As I'm cleaning up the coffee I sprayed on my computer screen after reading this, I immediately disregarded it for the humanistic New Age garbage given to you directly by the deceiver that it is. Then as I as I was pouring my next cup of coffee, I thought about you, standing before your Creator, the All Mighty, and God asking why you did the things you did while alive, while rejecting Him. Then I imagine you saying this
"God and Satan are two faces of the same coin and the difference only lies in attributes."
You owe me a cup of coffee.
Peace and blessings.