GOD vs SATAN
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prissy,
Yes GOOD and BAD comes from God but not evil.
Something bad for you may be good for me. so ultimately god guides us to the event which will results in good and bad.
Something bad for you currently may actually be not that bad in future and sometimes becomes good.
Winning a lottery is not always good and not always bad.
Satan's role is to guide us to do evil. evil will result you in sufferrring in the life after in hell.
We with God's guidance get the good and if we shun evil and do righteousthings, we have a rewarding life after in heaven.
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Peace,
Quote from Prissy ?Can you logically and reasonably accept that a religious supernatural male deity is both a Satan and a God; hence the two faces of the same coin? If not, what is (are) your proofs/evidences to support this notion? Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.?
The answer to above question is a NO. The God cannot be both Satan and The God. Your thought process is flawed. Following is the justification of my answer.
Presumption There is only one all-powerful God. He created everything that we see and don?t see.
If you do not accept this then there is point in discussing the matter with you.Reference Applicable Quranic verses
1528 - Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay.
1529 - "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him."
1530 - The angels fell prostrate; all of them,
1531 - except Iblis (Satan). He refused to be with the prostrators.
1532 - He said, "O Iblis (Satan), why are you not with the prostrators?"
1533 - He said, "I am not to prostrate before a human being, whom You created from aged mud, like the potter's clay."
1534 - He said, "Therefore, you must get out; you are banished.
1535 - ?You have incurred My condemnation until the Day of Judgment."
1536 - He said, "My Lord, respite me until the day they are resurrected."
1537 - He said, "You are respited.
1538 - "Until the specified day and time."
1539 - He said, "My Lord, since You have willed that I go astray, I will surely entice them on earth; I will send them all astray.
1540 - "Except those among Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You alone."
1541 - He said, "This is a law that is inviolable.
1542 - "You have no power over My servants. You only have power over the strayers who follow you.
1543 - "And Hell awaits them all.
Definition of Satan From the above referenced verses it is clear that Iblis disobeyed a command (order) of his creator (The God) and became Satan. Therefore, Satan?s destiny is hell. The same fate awaits us if we disobey The God and die in the state of disbelief.
Rationale for disproving your hypothesis In order for The God to become Satan He will have to disobey His creator. This is of course illogical and unreasonable and contradiction of our presumption. Thus your hypothesis ??.two faces of the same coin? is nullified.
Additional relevant Quranic verses to be pondered on
3372 - We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
2123 - He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
2102 - They pursued what the devils taught concerning Solomon's kingdom. Solomon, however, was not a disbeliever, but the devils were disbelievers. They taught the people sorcery, and that which was sent down through the two angels of Babel, Haroot and Maroot. These two did not divulge such knowledge without pointing out "This is a test. You shall not abuse such knowledge." But the people used it in such evil schemes as the breaking up of marriages. They can never harm anyone against the will of GOD. They thus learn what hurts them, not what benefits them, and they know full well that whoever practices witchcraft will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable indeed is what they sell their souls for, if they only knew.
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yeah elektro
I'm afraid you're jesting, dodging, shivering and have no idea what you're talking about.
Salaam
Maybe it?s you who is totally confused and, no I was not jesting, dodging, or shivering last night. I gave you a very straight forward route to find answers as it was too late in the night for me to do more than that. But since you claim that I have? no idea what I?m talking about? so just once more I will try to explain,In other words, The God (Allah) who is both a merciful and an evil one AS PER YOUR HOLY BOOK QURAN. I can present seveal veses of the Quran as evident; but ofcourse Muslims ONLY justify the good side of their GOD, not HIS evil side
Your understanding is woefully wrong! God is not evil but God created the Universe with goodness and evil leaving us to chose between the two. Instead of reading the Qur?an and reflecting on it you expect this forum to make you understand the deep human psychology and what goes on when a person is able to exploit the bad side of his psyche?
Let me remind you that the topic is about YOUR GOD vs SATAN (two faces of the same coin).
NO dear it?s not about my God vs Satan, this is only your slanted view. There are no two rivals. Satan is but the creation of God and, he and his ilk live side by side with every human being. He refused God?s command to submit to Adam and strives to control Adam. This is what I understand by Satan?s whispering.
For example you go to a shop and buy some goods. You give the cashier a ten dollar bill but by mistake s/he gives you change for 100 dollars. You look at the change and instantly, like a spark, a whisper invades your mind Walk off! It?s okay, keep it, wow 95 dollars! and a smile spreads on your face. It is this other influence on the brain; too proud of its smartness, that refused to submit to Adam and has been given the permission to exploit men.
However God taught you to feel bad for doing wrong; its part of your nature and if you are in the process of controlling yourself then a bit a later your conscience reminds you that what you did was unjust. The choice is yours and, if you manage to overcome Satan, you will return the extra money straight away this strenght of your character will lead you to reach a final state where God will smile over you and say to the Satan
1542You have no power over My servants. You only have power over the strayers who follow you.
BUT
If you are overpowered by the Satan you shrug it off and defy your good instincts; telling yourself it was the cashier?s mistake; I will pay back when I have more money, or I give them enough business anyway and so on and so forth. If these arguments prevail you learn, from then onward, to justify wrong to your advantage and progress down the path where that spark turns into a fire which will engulf you. 543 And Hell awaits them all
Being just and doing good will finally lead you to becoming a Momin and following Satan?s whispers may finally land you in the camp of evil, this is God's law.Very strange, irrational and illogical indeed; both from scriptural, hypothetical and mystical point of views and as well as from logical, natural and scientific point of views. I'm afraid you're utterly one sidedly deluded and bent upon relentlessy regardless of any justifications (I'm sorry to state that this is what Islam has been all about).
Not at all strange; if you study, this most complex entity, the human mind. Many studies have been done to understand why we behave the way we do and what effects our judgements have etc. But likely you would not understand, as you are so into your ideas of happiness linked to money and Satan vs God that all you can do is to come back with baseless accusations.For example you said in one of your posts
"The fortune procured by gambling is always in "good faith" because people don't gamble to INTENTIONALLY loose and it'll be damned if Satan blessed you with money to better yours and/or someone's lives inspite of God's prohibition".
A person speeding on a narrow road does so in good faith; he has no intention of killing a child. It?s only the thrill of trying to manage his speed and save time, so his intentions are good, yet the result may be horrendous. Similarly gambling starts on the same level, but this thrill makes those behind this game mega rich and they learn to exploit the desire of humans to its heights. Thus they are able to overpower vulnerable people and soon there is no turning back.
For a start I would humbly suggest that you do considerable background reading about gambling and the addictions it produces. Find out about what kind of people are behind the big casinos etc. and their power over ordinary people and politicians both fall prey to them.Besides, you cannot have both ways of having all the answers in a non_Muslim book or video authored by a non-prophet of God in comparison with a book or video authored by a Muslim or a Muslim prophet of God. Come to think of it, it is simply a very silly and strange analogy. (no pun intended).
Give me one good reason why we cannot have it both ways. What is wrong with a book by a non Muslim? Do you propose that, if we read the Qur?an, we should shun all other literature. Please get rid of this mullah mentality, read any worth wile book, including The Satanic Verses and attempt to understand the message behind it.
God talks to you in many ways and, as long as you have the will to do so, you can reach God through many channels. The writer of a novel, or the actors of movies are all God?s creation and are messengers of their plot.
I suggest you read Bubble?s post and replies on this thread which will save all lot of time and effort
http//free-inds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597315.msg186432#msg186432
peace -
Yes GOOD and BAD comes from God but not evil.
Winning a lottery is not always good and not always bad.
Winning a lottery (in hundreds, thousands or millions) is neither bad and certainly not evil but rather a fortunate blessing from above. How one uses this money determines its fate.A few years ago, a retired aged couple who had been purchasing a $1 megalotto in California finally hit the jackpot (nearly $85 million I believe). They gave most of their winning fortune towards charity (keeping some for themsleves, their relatives and friends - all became rich instantly) because they were alreay rich and living a comfortable life. This phenomenon cannot possibly be from Satan right from its very intention to gamble.
On the contrary, in casino gamblings the bets and stakes are high and one needs capital to play along with knowledge of the game, strategy and luck specially in table games. Here one can lose big or win big. A few months ago, a young guy was playing blackjack with his initial capital of $1000 and after ups and downs of continuous play for hours on end, he made around $90,000. Now I've seen worse where one of my friend's cousin who was a hardcore gambler and an alcoholic. He not only lost all his financial wealth but also his expensive cars, his beautiful beach home and his pretty girlfriend. Now, this does not mean that one lost because of Satan and the other won because of God, or is it as perhaps religon would otherwise suggest? Besides, if both "good" and "bad" came from God, then God cannot be ONLY merciful or gracious.
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Peace,
You (Prissy) say ?Winning a lottery (in hundreds, thousands or millions) is neither bad and certainly not evil but rather a fortunate blessing from above. How one uses this money determines its fate.?
Then you cite two examples one with good outcome and another with bad outcome.
If the outcome of gambling is ?..fortunate blessing from above? then the outcome should always good. For example the outcome of giving charity is always good.
You are contradicting yourself. What is your understanding of the word blessing?
Evaluate your thought process carefully before you let it out.
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You failed to answer a direct question.
Gamblers are not thieves and they invest/purchase towards returns, not out of nothing. Gamblers need skills, investment and ofcourse "luck".
Perhaps you can take a second shot at the following question where others and your goodself have failed to present straightforward answers
"Gambling or games of chances are evil abominations as per holy scriptures but thousands of people have bought $1 lotto and became instant millionares and their lives changed around for the better. Were they blessed by God or Satan?"
Thanks.
Dear Prissy
I deliberately avoided the question, since it is a "complex question". Since I do not accept the ability of Satan to "bless" people, if I answered your question with either Yes or No, I would be accepting such a false assumption.
So, correct your question and then, expect my answer.
Peace,
Edip -
Besides, if both "good" and "bad" came from God, then God cannot be ONLY merciful or gracious.
Who said that God is "ONLY" merciful and gracious? -\ The scriptures mention many characteristics of God, and He creates the good as well as the bad. There is no being named "Satan" controlling things; all power belongs to God. The Reading mentions that "al-shaytaan" (the satan) whispers to be in attempts to lead them astray, but this is the only power this one has (or these ones have). He can neither help or harm us. All power and control belongs to God ALONE...
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Who said that God is "ONLY" merciful and gracious? -\ The scriptures mention many characteristics of God, and He creates the good as well as the bad. There is no being named "Satan" controlling things; all power belongs to God. The Reading mentions that "al-shaytaan" (the satan) whispers to be in attempts to lead them astray, but this is the only power this one has (or these ones have). He can neither help or harm us. All power and control belongs to God ALONE...
he can harm us in accordance to GOD'S will ==-> Book of Job
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Peace Prissy,
It seems your are thinking of a God who fits the Christian view in the sense that He is all Good/Beneficient. In my limited understanding, one of the attributes of God in the Quran is (Al Adl) The Just. Going off of this attribute, we look in this world. You mention the horrific deaths caused by natural disasters and I pondered on the same thing for years. However, we must realize that there might be some reason why these events occur. In my viewpoint, the earth is capable of sustaining a limited amount of people. Natural disasters may occur to decrease human population and restore this balance in accordance with God's will. I am merely giving a reason that makes sense to me as to why such things occur; God knows best. Also, most people who are afflicted with these sort of disasters are living miserable lives in the first place so to them it could be a deliverance to something much better.
As far as the evil vs good debate, this is a direct consequence of the free will paradigm in this world. You cannot know what light is if you have not seen darkness. You cannot know what good is until you see what evil is. They go hand in hand. We have a choice; to do good or evil. We may see some of the consequences of the path we pursue in this life but in the hereafter they will be evident. God allows there to be evil in this world because it is a test for us.
Just my thoughts. I agree with a previous poster who asked that we be patient and ponder these issues and God increase in knowledge and wisdom. -
he can harm us in accordance to GOD'S will ==-> Book of Job
Perhaps this is true, but I disagree. The Biblical account tells the story of "Satan", who was allowed to do severe damage to Job (Ayyub), and it was completely permitted by God... The Reading, however, tells a different story... Here's an article on the test of Ayyub based on a Quranic analysis that I thought was very interesting and informative. It clarifies the fact that "the satan" can't physically harm any of the believers, and his only power is by "whispering" and inciting others to do wrong.
http//www.quran-islam.org/229.html
Let me know what you think...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Prissy,
Adam gambled. Yes, our great, great grandfather Adam and his wife (mate) Eve gambled and lost big. Here is how that happened.Adam was commanded not to eat from the tree by his Lord. This was a direct command to Adam from The God. The God also warned Adam that Satan is his greatest enemy.
Then Satan whispered to Adam, eat from the tree and you will become eternal (or angle). Satan said he was giving Adam sincere advice. In reality, Satan can only give false hope.
Adam gambled Adam wanted to win big, so he disregarded The God?s direct order and went for Satan?s false promise. We all know the outcome i.e. Adam lost big-time
Lesson Gambling is satanic system to deceive human being. The ingredients are
- False promise or a carrot (e.g. eternal)
- Human
The outcome of gambling is always bad because it is a satanic system.
Now let?s compare the Lotto system. Its ingredients are
- False promise (large sum of money that will make you rich and happy)
- Human
The outcome is bad weather you win or lose. None of it is a blessing from the above.
The gambling (satanic system) need one big win to sustain the system. Satan uses this big win to deceive people again and again.
You say lotto win is a blessing from the above. Let?s analyze this statement.
From your statement I deduce that losers are not blessed from above.
Person A plays lotto today and loses ? not blessed
Person A plays lotto next day and wins ? blessed
Person A plays lotto another day and loses ? not blessed
How could this be? Once you are blessed you should keep winning the lotto again and again.
Bottom-line your argument is based on false premise
Peace.
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You (Prissy) say ?Winning a lottery (in hundreds, thousands or millions) is neither bad and certainly not evil but rather a fortunate blessing from above. How one uses this money determines its fate.?
Then you cite two examples one with good outcome and another with bad outcome.
If the outcome of gambling is ?..fortunate blessing from above? then the outcome should always good. For example the outcome of giving charity is always good.
You are contradicting yourself. What is your understanding of the word blessing?
Evaluate your thought process carefully before you let it out.
I liked your last sentence (in bold). Well, if you had paid close attention to the word "winning" which is connotated with respect to blessing/fortune, then the contradiction as (mis)read by you is null.There's also a major error in your last post
You say lotto win is a blessing from the above. Let?s analyze this statement.
From your statement I deduce that losers are not blessed from above.
Person A plays lotto today and loses ? not blessed
Person A plays lotto next day and wins ? blessed
Person A plays lotto another day and loses ? not blessed
How could this be? Once you are blessed you should keep winning the lotto again and again.
Bottom-line your argument is based on false premise.
So, as per your convoluted religious beliefs, if
"Person A plays lotto today and loses - not blessed", then this person is deceived by Satan.
"Person A plays lotto next day and wins - blessed", then this person is blessed by God.
"Person A plays lotto another day and loses - not blessed", then this person is deceived again by Satan
....and so on and so forth. It seems we have a tug-of-war between Satan and God. rotfl -
I deliberately avoided the question, since it is a "complex question". Since I do not accept the ability of Satan to "bless" people, if I answered your question with either Yes or No, I would be accepting such a false assumption.
So, correct your question and then, expect my answer.
The question is very simple and straightword but the answers given are quite fascinating, contradictory and in some cases irrelevant to say the least. One even suggested to ponder upon Satanic Verses and other literatures inspite of being Quran Aloner or Quranist, LOL.If people have "evil/bad" intention/urge to gamble because they are deceived by Satan, then God also had His "evil/bad" intentions to create Satan in the first place in order to deceive His own creation, punish them and to cream it up He also created Hell for them. Wasn't God Himself almighty enough to deceive and/or to bless His human creation and as per Quranic verses both good and/or bad (meaning everything) comes from Him? Doesn't God bullies, threatens, punishes and destroys his own creation and then subjects them to eternal torture? If yes, then obviously He is not merciful or gracious, right? Can one call Him evil and disgraceful as will? But then once again, Satan and God are two faces of the same coin having different attributes.
Its good to discuss pertinent issues as such with you and others. Thanks and ofcourse, peace!
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The question is very simple and straightword but the answers given are quite fascinating, contradictory and in some cases irrelevant to say the least. One even suggested to ponder upon Satanic Verses and other literatures inspite of being Quran Aloner or Quranist, LOL.
If people have "evil/bad" intention/urge to gamble because they are deceived by Satan, then God also had His "evil/bad" intentions to create Satan in the first place in order to deceive His own creation, punish them and to cream it up He also created Hell for them. Wasn't God Himself almighty enough to deceive and/or to bless His human creation and as per Quranic verses both good and/or bad (meaning everything) comes from Him? Doesn't God bullies, threatens, punishes and destroys his own creation and then subjects them to eternal torture? If yes, then obviously He is not merciful or gracious, right? Can one call Him evil and disgraceful as will? But then once again, Satan and God are two faces of the same coin having different attributes.
Its good to discuss pertinent issues as such with you and others. Thanks and ofcourse, peace!
I think your more complaining about why GOD gave us free will, satan can't make us do anything, he might try to deceive you but your the one that goes through with it. And the devil doesn't really deceive, he tempts and you know right from wrong. It's like say no to drugs....say no to devil
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prissy,
the system is created that way, all kinds of events that may result in good and bad. you cant complain the systems creator for that and say he is evil, but only ask for the right guidance and knowledge so you minimize the bad events.For any deeds we have many options based on our knowledge of goodness, you have the freewill to choose the one which is right for you, but the knowledge of the evil option comes from satan.
regarding heaven and hell,
everyones given equal chance, i think knowingly doing wrong deeds which is Evil, is going to land you in hell. But Quran says God has the authority to decide which is right and wrong. if you do some wrong unknowingly and afterwards you get the knowledge that this is wrong and if your ego and selfishness prevents you to repent, it should be evil.I think,
idolators, even if they are doing good and spread unity should go to heaven, until if they are knowledgeable that this idol worshipping is causing disunity among people and making them more selfish about their sects,idol-gods and still continue their way of idol worshipping will land them in hell.
and also Muslims or any other group claiming to believe in only one god and if they are spreading disunity, hatred and not respecting other's rights will be going to hell.about gambling this explains you,
They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say In both is great sin, and utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.
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Prissy, Peace.
Quote
So, as per your convoluted religious beliefs, if
"Person A plays lotto today and loses - not blessed", then this person is deceived by Satan.
"Person A plays lotto next day and wins - blessed", then this person is blessed by God.
"Person A plays lotto another day and loses - not blessed", then this person is deceived again by Satan
....and so on and so forth. It seems we have a tug-of-war between Satan and God.This is your absurd belif. I was just analyzing what you said and was trying to show you the contradiction. I said win or lose is bad, neither is a blessing from the above. Nothing good can come out of satanic system. We should not go near it.
For the record this is what I said in my post "The outcome is bad weather you win or lose. None of it is a blessing from the above.
Gambling is tug-of-war between human and satan.
Again, i showed how caotic your thought process are and you agreed (see your quote above)
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about gambling this explains you,
They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say In both is great sin, and utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.
Peace amin,
I render ithmun (detriment/harm) opposite of benefit/use as suspicion/gossip ? avoid it.
4912 You, you those who believe, distance your selves from much of the suspicion, that truly some (of) the suspicion (is) ithmun (harm), and do not spy and do not backbite each other?
2219 They ask you about the intoxicants and the gambling say "In them great ithmun (detriment/harm) and benefits to the people and their ithmun (harm) (is) greater from their benefit/use?
Gaming theory is useful for analyzing risk although one has to be aware of their danger/ability to maneuver the mind away from the path. Stop; think on suggestive thoughts which form the attitude and lead to choices.
Thinking positive in attitude is to choose the right path and to agree with God.
sun
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Prissy, Peace.
Quote
So, as per your convoluted religious beliefs, if
"Person A plays lotto today and loses - not blessed", then this person is deceived by Satan.
"Person A plays lotto next day and wins - blessed", then this person is blessed by God.
"Person A plays lotto another day and loses - not blessed", then this person is deceived again by Satan
....and so on and so forth. It seems we have a tug-of-war between Satan and God.This is your absurd belif. I was just analyzing what you said and was trying to show you the contradiction. I said win or lose is bad, neither is a blessing from the above. Nothing good can come out of satanic system. We should not go near it.
For the record this is what I said in my post "The outcome is bad weather you win or lose. None of it is a blessing from the above.
Gambling is tug-of-war between human and satan.
Again, i showed how caotic your thought process are and you agreed (see your quote above)
Dear Guest, it is not my absurd belief but your religious one (obviously not specific to Islam). You mentioned that "nothing good come out of satanic system", but I already explained that gambling is neither bad nor evil (i.e. satanic). If it was purely a "satanic system", then people would never be "blessed" with fortune and everyone who gambles MUST lose; but that is NEVER the case.You mentioned that "The outcome is bad weather you win or lose"; Wrong Again. When you win the outcome is good, not bad.
The tug-of-war seems to be ALWAYS between Satan and God, not humans; as per your religous beliefs, not mine; simply because Satan and God are one and the same ... two faces of the same coin deceiving us humans.
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Peace Prissy,
The tug-of-war seems to be ALWAYS between Satan and God, not humans; as per your religous beliefs, not mine; simply because Satan and God are one and the same ... two faces of the same coin deceiving us humans.
What do you mean by your statement that Satan and God are having a "tug-of-war"? And what do you mean by them being 'two faces of the same coin' and 'deceiving humans'?
In my opinion, there is no evil deity named "Satan" - this is all an illusion. Both good and bad come from God, and He is in complete control of everything. The concept of "Satan" blessing someone is just as absurd as him cursing someone - both are misunderstandings and illusions. Humans 'reap what they sow', and we receive rewards and punishments based on how we live our lives and conduct ourselves. There's no "tug-of_war", and God is not in competition with anyone. Your view seems to imply that there is complete spiritual duality in relation to supremacy (i.e. God -vs- Satan), but this is incorrect, and it implies the idea that there are two gods competing for human approval. There is, in reality, only one god, and "Satan" doesn't have any power to control anyone or anything.
Peace,
Ahmad
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In my opinion, there is no evil deity named "Satan" - this is all an illusion.
In your previous posts, you admitted that there exists an entity named Satan, which, by your own contention is now an illusion nopePerhaps this is true, but I disagree. The Biblical account tells the story of "Satan", who was allowed to do severe damage to Job (Ayyub), and it was completely permitted by God... The Reading, however, tells a different story... Here's an article on the test of Ayyub based on a Quranic analysis that I thought was very interesting and informative. It clarifies the fact that "the satan" can't physically harm any of the believers, and his only power is by "whispering" and inciting others to do wrong.
Both good and bad come from God, and He is in complete control of everything.
Thus, your illusioned God or Allah is both good and bad. In other words both graceful and disgraceful; merciful and evil (two faces of the same coin).