caliph umar converts dumping ground into a "holy" site
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Peace all
thegod, Obviously your brain were numbed by the Truth of God's verses that show the divinity of Torah and Injeel, and therefore, you couldn't comment.As for the holy land, there is nothing holy about the history of jerusalem; whether or not anybody likes it.
Named after pagan deity http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598114.0
Graveyard of pigs & bones http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598018.0
Will...your words VS verse 5-21...who should I believe? God or You...I hope your brain can stop numbing so you can realize your size.
Again, I'm done with you in this one...see in another thread. eat
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belh-Again, I'm done with you in this one...see in another thread.
Okay. Looks like u have still not located the construction of the bayt by abraham & ishmael in the bible. Hmm. I have to say ur holy book has missed out on a very important narration. And this makes ur book a very poor source for any muslim study. How then are u going to prove that 521 refers to "jerusalem," which is not even mentioned in the quraan?. -)
Further, the land where abraham & ishmael built the kaaba has been called "balad alamin". And because abraham & ishmael never built the kaaba according to the bible, finding this place in the bible is a logical impossibility.
On the other hand, v have the quraan talking about the annihilation of the temple, without ascribing any holiness to it, let alone the city it stood in. & v have the history of jerusalem testifying to its own sorry existence. Nor can I help bones of pigs & foxes being found there. How much evidence will u avoid? Including the fact that u cannot fit muhammad in the well-established history of jerusalem.
Last time around, u disappeared without showing the arabic "makam ibrahim" on those unidentified tombs. Are u going to follow suit? -)
I have a question for u If almasjid alharaam is in jerusalem, where is almasjid alaq'saa?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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The destruction of the temple of jerusalem is a fact.
Peace
So you accept there was a temple in Jerusalem?
Beca is mentioned in the Psalms and is considered to Jerusalem, or very close to it (from my understanding). The description in that Psalm is also about a 'hajj'.
Yathrib is mentioned in the Quran (many thanks for providing me with a quote I was not aware of), but Medina is not (Mecca=Beca argument).In the Quran, the people of Mecca hindered the hajj. This does not mean that the hajj was near Mecca however.
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roshan-So you accept there was a temple in Jerusalem?
- Yes, this is what I have always implied. Also, the quraan mentions a temple which was destructed (177). Not mentioned is anything holy about it.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598114.0
-Beca is mentioned in the Psalms and is considered to Jerusalem, or very close to it (from my understanding). The description in that Psalm is also about a 'hajj'.
- I will reserve my comment on this for now.
What v know for a certainty from the quraan is that abraham & ishmael built the bayt at becca. What do u make of the complete asbence of abraham & ishmael building this bayt in the bible?
-Yathrib is mentioned in the Quran (many thanks for providing me with a quote I was not aware of), but Medina is not (Mecca=Beca argument).
- Medina is mentioned in the quraan. Among other verses, please refer to 9120.
-In the Quran, the people of Mecca hindered the hajj. This does not mean that the hajj was near Mecca however.
- If the hajj is farther north from medina, how then did the people of mecca, south of medina, hinder the hajj?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Okay. Looks like u have still not located the construction of the bayt by abraham & ishmael in the bible.
God revealed stories in the Torah that are not in Quran; in other words, the three books complete each others; so if the story of Abraham in Quran says that Abraham STARTED the Building, But did not Complete, the same story does not need to be in Torah and Bible. Moreover, the three books are Divine Books According To God.
And as Abraham raised the foundations from the Dwelling with Ishmael ?Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.?
2127Moreover, the three books are Divine Books According To God...so if you disagree with God, then feel free but keep it to yourself.
Further, the land where abraham & ishmael built the kaaba has been called "balad alamin".
Agree...Now look for the place that Has the following Landmarks in order to identify the City of Peace
951 By the fig and the olive.
952 And the mount of Sineen.
953 And this town of peace.I have a question for u If almasjid alharaam is in jerusalem, where is almasjid alaq'saa?
I believe it is the One in Madina where Makam Prophet Mohamed.
- If the hajj is farther north from medina, how then did the people of mecca, south of medina, hinder the hajj?
Maybe because they did that
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
9109 Is one who lays his foundation on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or one who lays his foundation on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Such a structure that they erect will continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
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belh-
- Expectedly, u cannot explain the absence of the narrative in the bible. The fact is that there are many "stories" common to the quraan & the bible; yet this important event has gone completely unmentioned in the book of jews & christians. Wonder then that the quraan tells the believers to not heed the rejectors (3100) who argue in vain(366)?
Now, that does explain the absence of the kaaba from that book, doesn't it?
-952 And the mount of Sineen.
- Never mind the admissibility of ur criteria, but the second of ur holy books tells us that sinai is in arabia.
But there is no ambiguity in the quraan regarding the temple which was destroyed. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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- Never mind the admissibility of ur criteria, but the second of ur holy books tells us that sinai is in arabia.
Where are the Fig and Olive trees in Mecca? where is the Mount of Sineen in Mecca? Where is Makam Abraham in Mecca?
Where are the Traces of Prophets in Mecca? Where are the Seas and rivers in Mecca of Which Pilgrms can Fish from during Pilgrim?
Where is Baka in Mecca? Where are the history that show the Isreails control of Mecca Two times?Use your Brain and do not rely in the Footstep of your Fathers?
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belh-
- Why don't u follow the quraan rather than ur twisted books, so that u can understand what millat of abraham is? It will save u the embarrassment of upholding the custom of ur fathers. grin
This is the chag of ur calf-worshipping fathers
To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of Asaph. Sing aloud unto God our strength make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
Do u howl on the full moon night? Or turn into a werewolf? yes
The fact that ur book does not talk about the bayt of abraham & ishmael means it is off ur list. Then, at which site do u worship on full moons - the graveyard of humans, or the graveyard of pigs & foxes? -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belh-
By the way, u did not comment on ur holy book telling us that sinai is in arabia. Are u going to run away like before?
This is not going anywhere; Sini is attached to Jerusalem and too far from Mecca. Moreover, When reading the Injeel and Torah, distinguish between translation and original, and between Isa writings and Paul's.
Even thus, all speak about Jerusalem but non about Mecca.Have a nice day...we are done
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belh-;Sini is attached to Jerusalem and too far from Mecca. Moreover, When reading the Injeel and Torah, distinguish between translation and original, and between Isa writings and Paul's.
Even thus, all speak about Jerusalem but non about Mecca.- Arabia does not equal mecca. In a book of the new testament, paul tells us that sinai is in arabia. & jerusalem is not in arabia. -)
Jesus did not write anything.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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, and I am aware of their pain.
Vayomer Adonay ra'oh ra'iti et-oni ami asher beMitsrayim ve'et tsa'akatam shamati mipeney nogsav ki yadati et-mach'ovav.38 I have come down to rescue them from Egypt's power. I will bring them out of that land, to a good, spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, the territory of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites.
Va'ered lehatsilo miyad Mitsrayim uleha'aloto min-ha'arets hahi el-erets tovah urechavah el-erets zavat chalav udevash el-mekom haKna'ani vehaChiti veha'Emori vehaPrizi vehaChivi vehaYevusi.39 'Right now the cry of the Israelites is coming to Me. I also see the pressure to which Egypt is subjecting them.
Ve'atah hineh tsa'akat beney Yisra'el ba'ah elay vegam-ra'iti et-halachats asher Mitsrayim lochatsim otam.
310 Now go. I am sending you to Pharaoh. Bring My people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.'
Ve'atah lecha ve'eshlachacha el-Par'oh vehotse et-ami veney Yisra'el mi-Mitsrayim.311 'Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh?' said Moses to God. 'And how can I possibly get the Israelites out of Egypt?'
Vayomer Moshe el-ha'Elohim mi anochi ki elech el-Par'oh vechi otsi et-beney Yisra'el mi-Mitsrayim.
312 'Because I will be with you,' replied . 'Proof that I have sent you will come when you get the people out of Egypt. All of you will then become God's servants on this mountain.'
Vayomer ki eheyeh imach vezeh-lecha ha'ot ki anochi shlachticha behotsi'acha et-ha'am mi-Mitsrayim ta'avdun et-ha'Elohim al hahar hazeh.315 God then said to Moses, 'You must say to the Israelites, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.' This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.
Vayomer od Elohim el-Moshe koh tomar el-beney Yisra'el Adonay Elohey avoteychem Elohey Avraham Elohey Yitschak ve'Elohey Ya'akov shlachani aleychem zeh-shemi le'olam vezeh zichri ledor dor.317 I declare that I will bring you out of the wretchedness of Egypt, to the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites - to a land flowing with milk and honey.' '
Va'omar a'aleh etchem me'oni Mitsrayim el-erets haKna'ani vehaChiti veha'Emori vehaPrizi vehaChivi vehaYevusi el-erets zavat chalav udvash.http//bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=2&chapter=3&verse=20&portion=13
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roshan-So you accept there was a temple in Jerusalem?
- Yes, this is what I have always implied. Also, the quraan mentions a temple which was destructed (177). Not mentioned is anything holy about it.
Fair enough. 'Al Haram' is not mentioned after 'masjid' in this verse.
-Beca is mentioned in the Psalms and is considered to Jerusalem, or very close to it (from my understanding). The description in that Psalm is also about a 'hajj'.
- I will reserve my comment on this for now.
Why be so mystical? This is a discussion, not a debate.
What v know for a certainty from the quraan is that abraham & ishmael built the bayt at becca. What do u make of the complete asbence of abraham & ishmael building this bayt in the bible?
I have not looked in depth at the Bible on this issue (of who built the bayt).
-Yathrib is mentioned in the Quran (many thanks for providing me with a quote I was not aware of), but Medina is not (Mecca=Beca argument).
- Medina is mentioned in the quraan. Among other verses, please refer to 9120.
The word medina is mentioned. However this means 'city'. This is, probably, another example of the sectarians making up names to justify their stories (e.g. masjid al aqsa, al arafat).
So again, you are left with the problem of two names for one place.
-In the Quran, the people of Mecca hindered the hajj. This does not mean that the hajj was near Mecca however.
- If the hajj is farther north from medina, how then did the people of mecca, south of medina, hinder the hajj?
Perhaps by organising military expeditions.
I also invite you to participate
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598116.0
Roshan
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rohsan-Fair enough. 'Al Haram' is not mentioned after 'masjid' in this verse.
- Yes. That verse simply talks about a much-abused temple, which is an apt description for the temple of jerusalem. Do u have any verse that ascribes holiness to this ill-fated temple, or to the city it stood in?
Why be so mystical? This is a discussion, not a debate.
- In the psalms, the devotee passes through the valley of bakha & appears before god in zion. If understood as a geographical location, this valley of mulberry trees is not on record
We read in the Psalms, How blessed is the man whose strength is in You, in whose heart are the highways to Zion. Passing through the Valley of Baca, they make it a spring. The early rain also covers it with blessings. They go from strength to strength. Every one of them appears before God in Zion. Psalm 845-7. A valley has long been a symbol for a dark place. Most are familiar with the valley of the shadow of death from the well known 23rd Psalm. Today the Valley of Baca is not known as a geographical location, although it may have existed in ancient Palestine. But like Psalm 23, the Valley of Baca represents a dark foreboding time. This contrasts to the symbolism of mountain peaks that refer to the high summit experiences in our lives. Students of the scriptures have interpreted its meaning as the valley of tears, weeping or lamentation. To pass through the Valley of Baca is to know times of trial.
ba'-ka bakha' In the King James Version in Ps 846, where the Revised Version (British and American) has "the valley of Weeping," with a marginal variant which is best put in the form, "the valley of the balsam-trees." The word is elsewhere used only in the duplicated account of one of David's battles (2 Sam 523,24; 1 Ch 1414,15). There the translation is "the mulberry trees," with "the balsam-trees" in the margin in the Revised Version (British and American). Conjecturally the word is, by variant spelling, of the stem which denotes weeping; the tree is called "weeper" from some habit of the trickling of its gum or of the moisture on it; the valley of weeping is not a geographical locality, but a picturesque expression for the experiences of those whose strength is in Yahweh, and who through His grace find their sorrows changed into blessings.
There is everything sectarian about this connection. The connection "discovered" (read "concocted" by the sectarians has no factual basis. The bakha of "valley of bakha" is translated as "weeping/lamenting," the corresponding root of which in arabic is "b-k-y".
The bakka of quraan comes from the root "b-k-k" which means to "cut/split; heap/crowd". Clearly, these are two different words. Clearly, no appeal can be made to bible's valley of bakha while talking about quraan's bakka.
Like I remarked, the rejectors & sectarians can keep their emotions aside. This, being a concoction by sectarians, has to be disregarded. -)
I have not looked in depth at the Bible on this issue (of who built the bayt).
- Please look into it & let me know the result. Locating the bayt (built by abraham & ishmael) in the bible will help us determine whether or not v can identify bible's jerusalem as becca of quraan. So far, v have everything against it.
-The word medina is mentioned. However this means 'city'. This is, probably, another example of the sectarians making up names to justify their stories (e.g. masjid al aqsa, al arafat).
- Are u saying that the city in that verse does not refer to yathrib? Or that the sectarians invented the word & renamed yathrib as medina?
-So again, you are left with the problem of two names for one place.
Are u making the unevaluated premise "an entity cannot be addressed by two names" the core of ur argument?
-Perhaps by organising military expeditions.
Can u elaborate? Jerusalem was under byzantine till around 614; then under sassanids till around 629; & again under byzantine till arabs captured it around 638.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen