Refuting the 2 Salaat Theory
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This is the ultimate refutal of the 2 Salaat Theory using Verses from the Quran
"GOD is the light of the heavens and the earth. The allegory of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it.
Light upon light. GOD guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). GOD thus cites the parables for the people.
GOD is fully aware of all things." (2435)"(Lit is such a Light) in houses, which God hath permitted to be raised to honour; for the celebration, in them, of His name In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings." (2436)
"By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of God, nor from regular Prayer, nor from the practice of regular Charity Their (only) fear is for the Day when hearts and eyes will be transformed (in a world wholly new)." (2437)
God is giving us an example of men who are in mosques and glorify God IN THE MORNING AND IN THE EVENING. These men are NOT DISTRACTED FROM TRADE.
Compare this to O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of God, AND LEAVE OFF BUSINESS (and traffic) That is best for you if ye but knew! (629)
Notice that God is teling us that we should leave off business here. This means it is NEITHER IN THE MORNING NOR IN THE EVENING, BECAUSE BEFORE GOD SAID THAT MEN WHO GLORIFY HIM MORNINGS AND EVENINGS IN MOSQUES (OR OTHER PRAYER HOUSES) ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE. BUT WHEN REFERRING TO THE CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER, GOD TELLS US THAT WE SHOULD LEAVE OFF BUSINESS, MEANING THAT IT IS DURING THE DAY.
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Peace,
BEFORE, GOD SAID THAT MEN WHO GLORIFY HIM MORNINGS AND EVENINGS IN MOSQUES (OR OTHER PRAYER HOUSES) ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE. BUT WHEN REFERRING TO THE CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER, GOD TELLS US THAT WE SHOULD LEAVE OFF BUSINESS, MEANING THAT IT IS DURING THE DAY.
Thank you for proving TWO REGULARLY TIMED SALAATS PER DAY.
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All salaats can be individual or congregational.
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MEN WHO GLORIFY HIM MORNINGS AND EVENINGS ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE, AND BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE, WHEN THEY ARE CALLED FOR DUSK OR DAWN SALAAT ON THE DAY OF GATHERING, THEY LEAVE OFF BUSINESS ------------> ONLY TWO SALAATS PER DAY.
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Leave off business does not mean it is between the two ends of daytime. Business is routinely conducted until late at night in many parts of the world and some businesses are 24 hour so one can leave off business at dusk or dawn when called for salaat on day of gathering.
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Every day is not day of gathering anyway -----------> no proof of regular 3 salaats per day every day.
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"Yawm" does not mean only daytime but refers to the whole 24 hour day or a time period as used in the qur'aan. The word for daytime is "nahaar" as used in the qur'aan.
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"On day of gathering"/yawm al-jum3a and "leave off business" in 629 does not necessarily mean an extra salaat. That is just a personal conjecture. I am conducting business on the day of gathering, and during dusk I hear the call to the 3isha salaat; I should cease my business and hasten to the salaat. This is what I hear in 629.
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It seems very odd that God would mention "yawm al-jum'a" and then not give us any clue as to when that day is. In my understanding He does tell us which day is the day of gathering/assembly and that is when all mankind gathers/assembles for hajj. Please see the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
- God forgot to tell us about the exact time of the 3rd salaat, even though He gave the exact times of the two regular salaats per day. Wow, God is forgetful and the qur'aan is not fully detailed relevant to our guidance. nope
You have done NOTHING to refute 2 regular salaats per day. Sorry
No more comments from me on this issue.
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People who glorify God in Mosques in the morning and in the evening are obviously not distracted by business, because it is over. Business is during the day.
This is why God is saying "By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of God, nor from regular Prayer" when speaking about men who are in mosques in the morning and in the evening.
Conclusion from the point You are not distracted by business/trade when praying in the mosque mornings and evenings, as no trade is going on.
When god is speaking about the congregational prayer, he says "O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of God, AND LEAVE OFF BUSINESS (and traffic) That is best for you if ye but knew!" (629)
Before, it said that when praying mornings and evenings in the mosque, men (or women) are not distracted by trade (since it is not going on, because the markets are closed at dawn and in the evening). When speaking about the congregational prayer, god is telling us that we should "LEAVE OFF BUSINESS" . It would be a contradiction to first say that people who pray mornings and evenings are not distracted by business and then say that we should leave off business for congregational prayer if it was during the evening. As we all know there are no contradictions in the Quran, so...
The only logical conclusion is The congregational prayer is during the day (noon, afternoon, etc.)
Any other opinions/views?
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Peace,
I cannot keep reponding to one the most absurd/ridiculous arguments I have ever heard in my life. I will repeat JUST ONE MORE TIME and hope it sinks in.
People who glorify God in Mosques in the morning and in the evening are obviously not distracted by business, because it is over. Business is during the day.
OK, ONCE AGAIN
Business is routinely conducted in many parts of the world until late at night and even 24 hours. IT IS NEVER JUST DURING DAYTIME.
Conclusion from the point You are not distracted by business/trade when praying in the mosque mornings and evenings, as no trade is going on.
WRONG. They are not distracted because when they hear the call to the dawn or dusk salaat while they are conducting their business, they LEAVE OFF THE BUSINESS THEY ARE ENGAGED IN, AND HASTEN TO THE SALAAT, thereby not being distracted by it.
What planet are you from where "no trade is going on during mornings and evenings"?
Before, it said that when praying mornings and evenings in the mosque, men (or women) are not distracted by trade (since it is not going on, because the markets are closed at dawn and in the evening). When speaking about the congregational prayer, god is telling us that we should "LEAVE OFF BUSINESS" . It would be a contradiction to first say that people who pray mornings and evenings are not distracted by business and then say that we should leave off business for congregational prayer if it was during the evening. As we all know there are no contradictions in the Quran, so...
The sign you are referring to (2437) gives a descriptive attribute of people who glorify God regularly, that trade does not distract them from REMEMBRANCE of The God and bringing forth ZAKAAT, in addition to SALAAT. This does not mean that no trade is going on during mornings and evenings. THERE ARE NO FIXED TIMINGS FOR REMEMBRANCE OF THE GOD OR BRINGING FORTH ZAKAAT. They can be done any time one wants. According to 2437, the believers do not let trade distract them from remembering God or bringing forth zakaat or establishing the regular two salaats per day. They do not let trade distract from ALL OF THAT. Remembrance of God can be done outside salaat. Contributing to zakaat can be done outside salaat. There are no fixed times for those activities.
What 2437 tells us is to make remembrance of God, contributing to zakaat and establishing the regular salaat a higher priority than conducting trade. This does not mean in any way that there is no trade in mornings and evenings. That is one of the most absurd/ridiculous things I have ever heard in my life and exemplifies TWISTING the word of The God to the highest degree possible.
Did God forget to tell us about the exact time of a 3rd regularly established salaat every day, even though He gave the exact times of the two regular salaats per day? Is God forgetful and is the qur'aan not fully detailed relevant to our guidance?
NO MORE COMMENTS FROM ME ON THIS RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT.
Peace
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@ truthseeker11
I have understood your point. You do not have to elaborate. (Besides, you have said that it is your last post twice) And dont say that this is a ridiculous arguement. This should be a discussion for everyone. I did not create this subject/thread for discussing with you only.
Peace
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In addition to what has been said already...
if a passage says "those not diverted/distracted by selling/trading", that implies it is going on, more so than it is not going on. If it was not going on, there would be no need to mention not being distracted/diverted by it.
Furthermore, if your argument is trade does not go on in mornings and evenings AND we have to leave off business during the day, e.g. afternoon, then that is one really short trading day. I assume trading times split into two by some arbitrary timing you will be forced to make up.
It is fact nahaar means daytime in The Quran, yawm is not daytime. yawm means time/day/period
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In addition to what has been said already...
if a passage says "those not diverted/distracted by selling/trading", that implies it is going on, more so than it is not going on. If it was not going on, there would be no need to mention not being distracted/diverted by it.
Furthermore, if your argument is trade does not go on in mornings and evenings AND we have to leave off business during the day, e.g. afternoon, then that is one really short trading day. I assume trading times split into two by some arbitrary timing you will be forced to make up.
It is fact nahaar means daytime in The Quran, yawm is not daytime. yawm means time/day/period
I know that "yawm" means "24-hour day" in that context. Nowhere did I say that it means daytime. I know that the verse(s) imply that trading is going on, which is why we should stop trading and go to business. The working day starts in the morning, right? So you trade and its going on till afternoon. Then you stop and go to prayer.
The reason why I am making this arguement/thread is because I noticed that in the verse talking about praying/glorifying God in the mornings and evenings are not distracted by prayer, and the one talking about the congregational prayer says that we should stop trade and go to prayer.
So basically - in the mornings and evenings WE ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY BUSINESS (JUST LIKE GOD SAYS) BECAUSE THERE ISNT ANY GOING ON.
AT MIDDAY/AFTERNOON TRADE IS GOING ON, THIS IS WHY GOD IS TELLING US TO CEASE TRADING TO GO TO PRAYER.So in one verse, God says that we are not distracted by prayer when it is in the mornings and evenings. In the other it says that we should stop trading and go to prayer. So for morning and evening prayers, we are not distracted by trade and for the congregational prayer we are distracted by trading. So it MUST be at noon/afternoon, otherwise God is making a contradiction about the not distracted by business and distracted by business (see my last post).
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Peace to all,
The Qur'aan refutes the "two prayer" claim in 2238...
You shall continually observe the "salawaat", and the "salaatu al wusta", and devote yourselves totally to God. (223
The "salaatu al wusta" has been identified as being a daily, recurring observance. Therefore, in this context, the "salawaat" must also be a recurring, daily practice. And the word "salawaat" is a plural noun specifically referring to THREE OR MORE observances. So, based on this passage, there must be AT LEAST THREE daily salaat observances... And coincidentally, in this same passage, the third salaat observance is identified as the "salaatu al wusta" (middle prayer)...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace to all,
The Qur'aan refutes the "two prayer" claim in 2238...
You shall continually observe the "salawaat", and the "salaatu al wusta", and devote yourselves totally to God. (223
The "salaatu al wusta" has been identified as being a daily, recurring observance. Therefore, in this context, the "salawaat" must also be a recurring, daily practice. And the word "salawaat" is a plural noun specifically referring to THREE OR MORE observances. So, based on this passage, there must be AT LEAST THREE daily salaat observances... And coincidentally, in this same passage, the third salaat observance is identified as the "salaatu al wusta" (middle prayer)...
Peace,
Ahmad
Thanks Ahmad for emphasizing on this and pointing it out, but from the prayer verses (11114, 1778, etc.) the 2 salaat theorists just say it means 2, which is a weird conclusion, considering the verse which you quoted.
I am not trying to necessarily promote the 3 salaat theory (as the following article is doing), but this is a good article/response in showing that there are more than 2 prayers
http//www.quran-islam.org/259.html
read and learn,
peace
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peace AB,
The Qur'aan refutes the "two prayer" claim in 2238...
Really? Let's see if your use of strong words such as "refute" actually matches the evidence...
You shall continually observe the "salawaat", and the "salaatu al wusta", and devote yourselves totally to God. (223
Where is the word "continually" in the Arabic?
The "salaatu al wusta" has been identified as being a daily, recurring observance.
Really?!! Where exactly has it been identified as being daily in this verse?
Therefore, in this context, the "salawaat" must also be a recurring, daily practice. And the word "salawaat" is a plural noun specifically referring to THREE OR MORE observances. So, based on this passage, there must be AT LEAST THREE daily salaat observances...
So if AQ uses the plural of good deeds in any passage, that means one must do 3 or more good deeds per day (even if day is never mentioned)?
The evidence and reasoning you have presented is nonsensical.
Anyone who wishes to research this issue, simply use the search function, as it has been discussed in literally hundreds of pages in detail, much more so than it has been discussed anywhere else on the internet (as far as I'm aware).
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peace AB,
Really? Let's see if your use of strong words such as "refute" actually matches the evidence...
You shall continually observe the "salawaat", and the "salaatu al wusta", and devote yourselves totally to God. (223
Where is the word "continually" in the Arabic?
Really?!! Where exactly has it been identified as being daily in this verse?
So if AQ uses the plural of good deeds in any passage, that means one must do 3 or more good deeds per day (even if day is never mentioned)?
The evidence and reasoning you have presented is nonsensical.
Anyone who wishes to research this issue, simply use the search function, as it has been discussed in literally hundreds of pages in detail, much more so than it has been discussed anywhere else on the internet (as far as I'm aware).
Where does it say in the Quran "establish/uphold salat al-fajr daily" or "establish/uphold salat al-isha daily"??!
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Where does it say in the Quran "establish/uphold salat al-fajr daily" or "establish/uphold salat al-isha daily"??!
Erm, you do realise what "fajr" and "isha" means right?
No more comments from me on this issue, other than please use the search function where salat and related topics have been discussed in literally hundreds of pages in detail.
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Erm, you do realise what "fajr" and "isha" means right?
No more comments from me on this issue, other than please use the search function where salat and related topics have been discussed in literally hundreds of pages in detail.
Yes I know what "fajr and "isha" mean, but my point is where in the Quran does it say "establish salat al-fajr" or "establish salat al-isha". You are saying that these are the only ones mentioned by name, but fail to realize that NOWHERE in the Quran does it say "establish salat al-fajr" or "establish salat al-isha".
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Yes I know what "fajr and "isha" mean, but my point is where in the Quran does it say "establish salat al-fajr" or "establish salat al-isha". You are saying that these are the only ones mentioned by name, but fail to realize that NOWHERE in the Quran does it say "establish salat al-fajr" or "establish salat al-isha".
When the doctor tells you to take a pill after breakfast and another one after dinner, would you be confused because he did not say (eat breakfast) or (eat dinner)?
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When the doctor tells you to take a pill after breakfast and another one after dinner, would you be confused because he did not say (eat breakfast) or (eat dinner)?
The doctor does not need to tell me to eat breakfast or dinner, since it is an established practice, just like salaat was during Muhammad's time.
You are mixing the fact that 2458 talks about the names of only 2 salaat with the logic/example given by A. Muhammad.
I challenge you to show me a verse in the Quran that says "uphold salaat al-fajr" or "uphold salat al-isha".
The prayers are to be done at the timings given in the Quran, namely in the verses 11114 and 1778, then take 2238 and you put that in the middle of the other prayers.
Peace
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http//www.quran-islam.org/259.html
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http//www.quran-islam.org/259.html
That's the first time I've seen that link
Their point (1) is rubbish that's the first time I've read "wst" means "better". That does not fit with Quranic usage, thus to refute this point proves nothing. Anyone can see what "wst" means by reading its usage in The Quran.
Their point (2) and (3) is interesting, in the sense that it looks like they do not realise the significance of their finding. Let me know when they prove from The Quran that "salat" means "prayer", then we can go back to their point (2) and (3) and discuss it. I wonder if they translate "salawat" as "prayers" in the other occurrences of "salawat".... not many do. I wonder why that is eh.
Their point (4) citing 1778 as evidence of timing of a 3rd/middle "salat" has been refuted in this forum, that is why no long term forum member accepts this interpretation.
Same old same old. Let us know when you find something new.
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Peace everyone,
The prayers are to be done at the timings given in the Quran, namely in the verses 11114 and 1778, then take 2238 and you put that in the middle of the other prayers.
Middle of the daytime or middle of the night and why? One sect says middle of the night. Another sect says middle of the daytime.
! I see, the god forgot to give us the exact time of this "middle" salat, whether it is middle of the daytime or the middle of the night, and the qur'aan is not fully detailed relevant to our guidance. What a forgetful god !
