Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Peace Phil,
2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
And do not marry the mushrikaati females until they believe --------> So according to your understanding it is ok to marry the married female once she believes?
Peace truthseeker11
The understanding of the word "believer/yu'minna" as you have underlined in your post needs to be seen from the context of marriage. This is the central theme of the verse.
The root Alif-Meem-Nun amongst others signifies "the manifesting humility or submission, and the accepting the Law," Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, p138.
The Law as can be seen in 2221 states that we (men) are advised against marrying those who have partners/mushrikaati and the same goes to women that they are not to marry those who have partners/mushrikeen.
As such, one has to accept the Law before entering to the commitment, i.e marriage.
And what is the Law say about marriage? Do not marry those who have partners.
Those married person/with partners are left with no other choice but to turn to single/no partners in order to comply with the Law. In doing so, i.e complying with the Law, you are termed as "believers/mu'minatun/mu'minun" (in the context of marriage).
And do not marry the mushrikeen males until they believe--------> So according to your understanding it is ok to marry the married male once he believes?
For a believing servant is better than one who mushrikaat ---------> A believer is better than a married?
Your twisting results in this nonsense.
Try and apply the new understanding of the words mushrikeen/mushrikaat in the above verse and see whether it make any sense.
Also it contradicts with 43
No more comments on this particular issue from me.
Peace
Q43 addresses the issue of orphans and their inheritance. That's all about it. No polygamy/polygyny.
Sincerely hope that the below quote does not apply to you.
?The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.?
Peace.
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Fahad peace What do you think now?
I think that it is wrong to have sex before the timing written(if so) in the nikah contract. But I don't think that "pre-marital" sex is punishable as, or falls under the category of, az-zina, as I do not recall seeing evidence for this(or maybe I missed it). If someone has, please share. IMHO, a couple indulging in "pre-marital" sex would also be regarded as azwaaj/mates/spouses, or "husband-wife".
I do have some(or many?) confusions about this topic so I need to look into it further. I'll let you know in more detail, inshaallah.
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peace
You are misunderstanding 2226. That sign is applicable only to MARRIED people.
I understand. But would it not mean that if i had sex, then i would have to wait a minimum of 4 moons before i have sex with a DIFFERENT person? As men have only 4 months reconcilation and nothing more as far as i Know.
The oath of engagement is a solemn/serious oath and is making a pledge involving The God. It is not just a casual declaration of "you are my girlfriend now". It is an oath in front of God that you are going to marry her and fulfil all your financial responsibilities after marriage. This oath is not to be taken lightly.
But what if starting a relationship is a commitment and a serious oath as once you enter a relationhip and the fact that you are a couple falls into place, you feel obliged to spend time with your partner, buy her things, share things and so on therefore fulfilling the Quranic criteria.
Obviously proposal to a marriage or an engagement is a more serious commitment but that does not mean that a relationship with the absence of engagement lacks the commitment or oath required by the Quran.
I'll have to finish this reply another time.
Peace
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Peace,
I understand. But would it not mean that if i had sex, then i would have to wait a minimum of 4 moons before i have sex with a DIFFERENT person? As men have only 4 months reconcilation and nothing more as far as i Know.
No sex allowed until after nikah/marriage. No sex with fiancee or girlfriend etc. After marriage/nikah, if you had sex with your wife and then you stopped having sex with her for some reason, then you have four full-moons to reconcile. If you don't reconcile for that time period, it does not mean that your marriage is terminated after 4 full-moons. At the end of 4 full-moons you can start the divorce process. One divorce is not enough for terminating the marriage. After first divorce you have to wait for 3 menstrual periods of your wife before giving second divorce. Then after second divorce you have to wait 3 menstrual periods of your wife and ONLY THEN the marriage is terminated.
On the other hand, if you started the divorce process right away, then first divorce ---> wait 3 menstrual periods ---> second divorce ---> wait 3 menstrual periods ---> marriage terminated. In this case, no waiting for 4 full-moons, but still you will have to wait for 6 menstrual periods.
But what if starting a relationship is a commitment and a serious oath as once you enter a relationhip and the fact that you are a couple falls into place, you feel obliged to spend time with your partner, buy her things, share things and so on therefore fulfilling the Quranic criteria.
But you still cannot have sex with her until after nikah/marriage, involving one witness, and a tangible/physical marriage contract, and permission from her guardian if she was guardian protected before marriage/nikah. You can give a lump sum dowry any time after nikah/marriage, and this can be after or before sex, but definitely before divorce. It has to be something of financial value that the wife can keep after divorce. The dowry is for the financial protection of the wife in case of divorce, and its amount and the date when it was paid has to be recorded in the marriage contract. The continued financial support after marriage is obligatory upon the breadwinner husband and is separate from the dowry.
Obviously proposal to a marriage or an engagement is a more serious commitment but that does not mean that a relationship with the absence of engagement lacks the commitment or oath required by the Quran.
It may not lack the commitment, but you still cannot have sex until after nikah/marriage as explained above.
Stage 1 - girlfriend/boyfriend relationship --------> private parts have to be covered/protected/guarded, no sex allowed. This is same as friendship between a man and a woman, and all the dress codes, and lowering the gaze, and concealing the zeenat, and covering/protecting/guarding the private parts as commanded by God have to be observed.
Stage 2 - After oath of engagement in The God's name -------> private parts can be exposed but still no sex allowed
Stage 3 - After nikah/marriage (involving one witness + physical marriage contract + guardians permission if needed) --------> sex allowed but dowry has to be given before or after sex, and definitely before divorce. -
Peace Q_student,
DEar nimnimak
If you want to have sex before marriage ,go ahead. Please do not use Quran for this purpose. Quran is not meant for justification of these illicit relations.
Thanks
Regardsbravo
You stole my words. All I would add is, be ready for retribution on the Last Day too, for violating the haraam. There is no escape from that, unless The God forgives.
6151 Say ?Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and DO NOT COME NEAR LEWDNESS/FAWAAHISH, WHAT IS PLAIN OF IT OR SUBTLE; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend.?
Forget about actually doing it, we are commanded not even to come near it.
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peace Nyma, all,
Dude, you never explained one of the verses referenced for you
Quran 2235
And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking of them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say/discuss... -
I think that the question that Minimak is putting forward is what makes marriage marriage, that is, what consitutes marriage, and if, for instance, common law marriage is marriage within the meaning of the Qur'an. Is that it, Minimak?
In that sense I would think that a requirement for marriage to be one should be that the pact be public and recognized, and in default of that, that there is a legal witness of it.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
In that sense I would think that a requirement for marriage to be one should be that the pact be public and recognized, and in default of that, that there is a legal witness of it.
bravo bravo bravo
Another very important requirement is that dowry should be given after nikah/marriage is legally witnessed to ensure financial protection of the wife in case of divorce. This dowry should also be legally witnessed. In case of guardian protected young women, permission of the guardian/parents is also very important.
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Peace Phil,
The understanding of the word "believer/yu'minna" as you have underlined in your post needs to be seen from the context of marriage. This is the central theme of the verse.
The root Alif-Meem-Nun amongst others signifies "the manifesting humility or submission, and the accepting the Law," Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, p138.
The Law as can be seen in 2221 states that we (men) are advised against marrying those who have partners/mushrikaati and the same goes to women that they are not to marry those who have partners/mushrikeen.
As such, one has to accept the Law before entering to the commitment, i.e marriage.
And what is the Law say about marriage? Do not marry those who have partners.
Those married person/with partners are left with no other choice but to turn to single/no partners in order to comply with the Law. In doing so, i.e complying with the Law, you are termed as "believers/mu'minatun/mu'minun" (in the context of marriage).
Try and apply the new understanding of the words mushrikeen/mushrikaat in the above verse and see whether it make any sense.
As I clearly see from your post, you have carefully avoided one of the resulting nonsense that arises out of your twisting of The God's words. This forces me to repeat what I said earlier, for the benefit of the readers, but this is the last time I will repeat it.
2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
Your twisting that "mumin" in the context of 2221 means "one who accepts the law of being single before getting married" would result in this utter nonsense
"One who accepts the law of being single before getting married is better than a married person"
The truth will set you free only if you stop twisting The God's words and be more sincere in knowing the truth rather than twisting it to suit your own desires, and stop hiding a part of The God's signs.
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DEar nimnimak
If you want to have sex before marriage ,go ahead. Please do not use Quran for this purpose. Quran is not meant for justification of these illicit relations.
Thanks
RegardsQ_student.
Why not use the Quran? The Quran is the Furqan/Discriminator of right and wrong. Shouldn't one care to confirm whether his/her thoughts and actions are justified by the Quran or not?
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Peace Phil,
To add to what I said above, I looked up "mushrik" in Lane's Lexicon. It does not mean "one WITH a partner" anywhere. It means "one who attributes/ascribes/assigns partners with God". One with a partner or sharing a partner is called "mushtarak" or "musharrak".
I also looked up "mo'min" in Lane's Lexicon and nowhere it means "one who accepts the law". It is either used as an attribute of The God "al-mo'min" meaning "He who renders mankind secure from his wronging them" or "He who will faithfully perform to His servants what He promised them" or "He who has declared in His word the truth of His unity". In the context of humans "mo'min" means "believer/faithful/trusting/confiding".
"Imaan" can mean "the law brought by the prophet", and using that meaning "mo'min" will be "the one who brings the law", not "the one who accepts the law".
We have to pay attention to the form of the word and not just the root for the correct meaning, in addition to the context of usage in the qur'aan, taking care to avoid those meanings that will render the translation of the sign nonsensical or create contradiction in The God's words. We cannot twist The God's words to suit our desires.
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Q_student.
Why not use the Quran? The Quran is the Furqan/Discriminator of right and wrong. Shouldn't one care to confirm whether his/her thoughts and actions are justified by the Quran or not?
DEar
Is Quran meant to pull out of it the justification of Zina?
Regards -
Q_student.
Why not use the Quran? The Quran is the Furqan/Discriminator of right and wrong. Shouldn't one care to confirm whether his/her thoughts and actions are justified by the Quran or not?
Peace Fahad and Q_student
Fahad Much obliged peace
Q_student
DEar
Is Quran meant to pull out of it the justification of Zina?
RegardsFrom the comments you have directed towards me, I get the feeling you hold a wrong assumption about me. peace
My intention as huruf puts
is what makes marriage marriage
Truthseeker
involving one witness, and a tangible/physical marriage contractWhich verse did you get WITNESS and PHYSICAL contract from???
Another very important requirement is that dowry should be given after nikah/marriage is legally witnessed to ensure financial protection of the wife in case of divorce. This dowry should also be legally witnessed
Where did you get legally witnessed from??
I've come across a verse which implies that dowry is possibly not something that is leagally set (as in signed on paper) rather just a mutual agreement between two couples.
419-O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
How can this be done if it is signed on paper?? It can however be done if the other side is guilty of lewdness and you feel that in the sight of God that if you take away some of their "dower" you have not wronged your self. I think that you are morally bound (contract) I'm not sure about legally (Paperwork)
What do you think?
Wakas Sorry, I guess i missed it 2235
And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to these women, or you keep it between yourselves (This would imply that they have not yet attained marriage. God knows that you will be thinking of them, but do not meet them secretlyMeeting each other secretly is almost an invitation to sex and if you have not yet married, then this is unquranic unless you have something righteous to say/discuss...
However once you attain marriage (IMO a strong enough relationship) then this is not an issue.
Yosemit peace
if only you had said fiancee instead of girlfriend boyfriend
But a strong enough relationship could well be equal to that of having a fiance.
The only difference i understand of this is the name "fiance".If i have missed anything or anyone or any verse, please point it out as Wakas has kindly done, and i will try and respond.
Thanks,
peace peace
Nyma -
DEar
Is Quran meant to pull out of it the justification of Zina?
RegardsDear Q_student.
First, you did not answer my question.
Second, the Quran is meant to be the discriminator of right and wrong. We need to look at the Quran to see whether the act that is being referred to as "az-zina" by the people is just a preconceived notion or is it really what the Quran refers to as "az-zina". Please tell me if you understand and agree.
So tell me, what is your understanding of "az-zina"? We will compare it with the Quran to see what is justified and what is not, ok?
Thanks.
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Peace Nyma,
What is the meaning of "oqdat al-nikah" in 2237?
What is the meaning of "biyadihi" in 2237?
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He in whose hand the marriage contract is. How can it be he in whose hand the marriage contract is without that person witnessing the marriage? If that person did not witness the marriage, then what if one of the parties makes up a fake marriage contract and gives it in the hand of someone? This proves that the guardian of the marriage contract has to be the witness of the marriage.
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In whose hand/biyadihi indicates that it is something physical/tangible. That can only be a physical/tangible document which is legally binding.
You cannot take away part of the dowry unless the wife has committed open/clear lewdness. Committing open/clear lewdness can only mean proven with evidence/witnesses, otherwise any husband can claim at any time that the wife committed lewdness and take the dowry away. Then it will become a joke to even give dowry because any husband can later take it away by just accusing the wife of lewdness. The husband just claiming that the wife committed lewdness DOES NOT MEAN SHE COMMITTED OPEN/CLEAR LEWDNESS.
The amount of the dowry and when it was paid will be recorded in the marriage contract. Once the wife has committed open/clear lewdness (meaning legally, with proven evidence/witnesses), then the husband can take part of the dowry away and the guardian of the marriage contract will record that amount of the dowry taken away in the marriage contract to prevent any disputes later on. This actually proves that there has to be a physical/tangible legal marriage contract, and not just a verbal one.
Just a verbal marriage contract alone, without any witness and a physical contract, will be just his word against hers ------> he said she said. There will be no legal evidence of any dowry given and this will result in enormous and insurmountable legal difficulties in case of divorce if either party disputes the dowry. That can potentially make every divorce a legal nightmare. Also the guy can later on claim that they were never married and refuse to accept the responsibility of supporting her financially and supporting her if she gets pregnant or supporting the child. The guy can potentially just dump the girl after a one night stand by claiming they were never married, and refuse to accept his responsibility of financial support to the woman and their child. That will have disastrous consequences, just like everyone can witness for themselves happening every day in the so called boyfriend/girlfriend relationships in the western countries, when the "boyfriend" takes off and the "single mom" is left alone to take care of herself and the child and the enormous struggles and financial problems she has to go through.
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Dear Q_student.
First, you did not answer my question.
Second, the Quran is meant to be the discriminator of right and wrong. We need to look at the Quran to see whether the act that is being referred to as "az-zina" by the people is just a preconceived notion or is it really what the Quran refers to as "az-zina". Please tell me if you understand and agree.
So tell me, what is your understanding of "az-zina"? We will compare it with the Quran to see what is justified and what is not, ok?
Thanks.
Salaam Fahad
Brother ! as my ID indicates ,I am a student. I admit that I have no idea what the "zina" is according to Quran. I will appreciate ,if you could throw some light and give the difination of Zina according to Quran.
Thanks in advance.
Regards -
Peace Truthseeker
I had a feeling you'd quote 2237
Here is the whole verse
If you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already agreed to the dowry, then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. If you forgive, it is closer to awareness. Do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.If you look closely, it first says "unless they forgive"
Then the verse says OR followed by "The guardian over the marriage contract forgives"To me this can imply the following things
- In the marriage there has to be a guardian over the contract (which is what you suggest)
- You may choose to have a guardian over the marriage contract.
I think it's the second as no where else (as far as in know) in the Quran does it say that there has to be a Guardian over the marriage contract where as it clearly mentions a contract between the couple in other verses in the Quran.
To summarise My understanding of this verse AT THE MOMENT is if you split up/Divorce before having sex but you have already agreed to the dowry (Decided on a sum/Bought things for her) then you have to give half of what you have agreed/Let her keep half of what you have already bought her unless she or the guardian over the marriage contract (if there is one) forgives. If you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. Do not forget the favour between you (To me this means don't forget the good relationship/times/moment etc. you enjoyed/had between yourselves)
then what if one of the parties makes up a fake marriage contract and gives it in the hand of someone?
I might be wrong, but it looks to me that your approaching this topic (marriage) in the Quran completely based on the preconcieved traditional understanding of marriage.
As i suggested before, The contract does NOT have to be PHYSICAL. Hence whilst your scenario may apply to what WE label as marriage, as far as i understand of the Quran it does not apply to a Quranic Marriage where SOME couples which we label as COUPLES may be classified as married if using the quranic criteria.
The husband just claiming that the wife committed lewdness DOES NOT MEAN SHE COMMITTED OPEN/CLEAR LEWDNESS.
I know hence if you have bought anything for your girlfriend/wife or decided on a set amount for your girlfriend/wife or gave her anything, you should not ask for it back unless it is proven that she has commited lewdness.
The amount of the dowry and when it was paid will be recorded in the marriage contract. Once the wife has committed open/clear lewdness (meaning legally, with proven evidence/witnesses), then the husband can take part of the dowry away and the guardian of the marriage contract will record that amount of the dowry taken away in the marriage contract to prevent any disputes later on. This actually proves that there has to be a physical/tangible legal marriage contract, and not just a verbal one.
This is one interpretation of dowry which i agree with but I also think that another interpretaion is also correct that is
Once lewdness is proven, it is morally acceptable for you in a relationship to want some of the things you have bought your partner back.Your interpretation is based on govenrment law which applies to traditional marriages. Mine is based on the morality of what is acceptable in a relationship in the eyes of God which also applies to loving couples.
Just a verbal marriage contract alone, without any witness and a physical contract, will be just his word against hers ------> he said she said. There will be no legal evidence of any dowry given and this will result in enormous and insurmountable legal difficulties in case of divorce if either party disputes the dowry. That can potentially make every divorce a legal nightmare. Also the guy can later on claim that they were never married and refuse to accept the responsibility of supporting her financially and supporting her if she gets pregnant or supporting the child. The guy can potentially just dump the girl after a one night stand by claiming they were never married, and refuse to accept his responsibility of financial support to the woman and their child. That will have disastrous consequences, just like everyone can witness for themselves happening every day in the so called boyfriend/girlfriend relationships in the western countries, when the "boyfriend" takes off and the "single mom" is left alone to take care of herself and the child and the enormous struggles and financial problems she has to go through.
I agree with you handshake
But you are viewing the worst case scenario which the Quran prevents. Think about it The Quran says not to marry someone UNTILL THEY BELIEVE. This means that if you as a believer wait untill they believe then marry them (start a loving relationship) that means both of you submit to God hence you are both morally sound.
No morally sound couple would (as far as i know) consider a one night stand morally acceptable. Even if unintentionally a believing couple end up pregnant, no morally sound believer would leave his spouse/partner/wife/girlfriend to bring up their child alone.
There would be no "he said she said" over the mutual agreements (including the dowry) between two morally sound individuals as everything in terms of moral has been outlined for the believers in the Quran.
These worst case scenarios which you remind, IMO are not scenarios that can be related to believers.
I am in hope that you can provide other evidence from the Quran for
- written contract
- compulsion in having a GUARDIAN over the marriage contract
- Written dowry
Thanks,
Nyma
peace
